On the threshold of "Pleasurable Computing".

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2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
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Web pages? It loads as fast as my i7-3960x @4.5G. What you need is adblockplus and noscript. Really webpages should not be taxing cpus.

Then something is wrong with your i7

I don't know what you are talking about, I am on the L9400 right now and clicking on Word, instant launch, can type even before moving my hand off the mouse. Same with excel, powerpoint, onenote, they are all instant launches. Sure if I do a huge spreadsheet computation it's way slower than my i7-3960x, but for the basic tasks you are talking about there is no difference. I am on windows 7 and I do keep my OS clean (in fact I'm on the same original installation from 2010). The point is, basic tasks simply do not tax the cpu, nor should they.

Your C2D must be made special or maybe you're just used to the sluggishness since it's your primary PC. I've used and still own plenty while using one fairly regularly, I don't see what you're seeing and I've got far fresher then 6 year old OS installs.
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Then something is wrong with your i7
Nothing's wrong with anyone's CPU. Making connections is slow, and without those add-ons, you have to make a shitload more of them. Check out the network tab of dev tools with and without such add-ons. Firefox likes to busy-wait, using up a whole core, while this goes on, but it'll do it on an i7 just as it will an Atom, and still not load files from the WAN any faster. No major browser, since the devs all seem to be in bed with advertisers, have yet implemented 1st-party rendering priority, either (IE, reflow the page once all first-party data is loaded, and make it interactive, while waiting for 3rd-party data).
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
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Basic programs like word open close to instantly with an SSD or if it's in memory already, even on a Core 2.
Basic programs load quickly, period. Nothing in Office is remotely basic, and only Excel starts up reasonably fast. Click word. Wait. Splash comes up. "Starting..." comes up, some animation goes by, to pas the time. Then the splash goes away, and the program is available. It's not even close to instant, even with warm caches.

Efficient and fast-loading programs exist, just that Word is not among them. I can react much faster than it takes to start up. Notepad++, OTOH, while it does take long enough for a busy cursor to flash by, and I can see it building the window controls out a little, is far faster than I can react to.

But if you used the ms office web installer (vs downloading the massive image/exe similar to the files on the DVD version), I noticed the programs take longer to open and sit on the splash screen for about 5-10 seconds.
Standard, locally installed from files, not click to run.
 

hawkeye_wx

Junior Member
Oct 14, 2011
17
0
66
For browsing, Core 2 is borderline (have three - a T7250, T8300, and E7300). Firefox is sluggish, but Edge is fine (I don't use Chrome). It's not a memory issue; these machines have 3-4GB of memory and as the tabs load up, it's the CPU which becomes strained. Same with windows updates - they take a while but at least SSDs remove the i/o bottleneck.

My old 'core 2' laptop is a T3400, roughly the same as the T7250. It has 3 GB ram, but no ssd. My browsing experience(chrome) is fine as long as only a few to several windows/tabs are open. It can really bog down if I go much beyond that, plus certain kinds of web pages oddly stress the cpu. As far as watching youtube videos goes, I stick to only 480p to get smooth performance. A modern system would be nice, but I'm just one of those guys who uses things as long as they keep working.
 
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2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
131
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Nothing's wrong with anyone's CPU. Making connections is slow, and without those add-ons, you have to make a shitload more of them. Check out the network tab of dev tools with and without such add-ons. Firefox likes to busy-wait, using up a whole core, while this goes on, but it'll do it on an i7 just as it will an Atom, and still not load files from the WAN any faster. No major browser, since the devs all seem to be in bed with advertisers, have yet implemented 1st-party rendering priority, either (IE, reflow the page once all first-party data is loaded, and make it interactive, while waiting for 3rd-party data).

If your C2D is loading web pages (particularly heavy ones) just as fast as your i7, there is something wrong with your i7... Unless of course you're on dial-up, T1 or an exceptionally crappy DSL/Cable service, in which case I stand corrected. I'm on a 100mb pipe and there's a difference in load times and a much bigger difference in scrolling through the page if it's a demanding one.

I'm not debating the number of IP connectiosn being made. I'm saying a modern day i7 will certainly load pages quicker then a C2D. Heck, you can even see a difference in load times when people do video comparisons from one smartphone to the next newest smart phone, so please don't tell me there isn't one, because that's nothing short of wrong.
 

Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
231
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If your C2D is loading web pages (particularly heavy ones) just as fast as your i7, there is something wrong with your i7... Unless of course you're on dial-up, T1 or an exceptionally crappy DSL/Cable service, in which case I stand corrected. I'm on a 100mb pipe and there's a difference in load times and a much bigger difference in scrolling through the page if it's a demanding one.

I'm not debating the number of IP connectiosn being made. I'm saying a modern day i7 will certainly load pages quicker then a C2D. Heck, you can even see a difference in load times when people do video comparisons from one smartphone to the next newest smart phone, so please don't tell me there isn't one, because that's nothing short of wrong.
Agreed, 100%.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
126
Something's not quite right with my i3-6100 in my Asus H110M-A mobo with newest BIOS, Windows 7 64-bit.

I have two front-panel USB2.0 ports plugged into the board. The xHCI drivers for Win7 64-bit are loaded.

Sometimes, the HDMI audio doesn't re-detect, even if I shut off my monitor (HDTV) and turn it back on again. Then, I have to re-boot the PC entirely to get it back.

Only, when I restart, it takes much longer for the initial Win7 boot sequence (I see the entire flag / Windows logo form, and it sits there for like 10 seconds), and then the front USB2.0 ports (where the mouse + keyboard and additional mouse are plugged in) don't work. Unplugging and replugging the mouse (it has LEDs on it, it's a "gaming" mouse), causes the LEDs to flicker and shut right off again.

I have to use the Power button to shut everything down, and do a clean power-up to get things to work again.

Why is Skylake this hard?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
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A conspiracy with Intel and MS to get you to swap to win10. :)

Or install a GPU.

Edit: I threw in my last GT740 GDDR5 card. (I think it's 1GB?)

UI in web browser doesn't seem any faster, really, nor is the scrolling any smoother. (Unlike my G4400 OCed rig with 7950 3GB.)

But I'm hoping that the HDMI re-sync issues will be behind me now.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
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I don't get the "re-detect" part. Are you constantly swapping monitors?

No, it's part of the HDMI handshake process. When an HDMI monitor goes to sleep, it loses the HDMI link, and when it gets woken back up, it has to be re-initiated.

Plus, these particular HDMI HDTV 24" monitor seem to have a "quirk" with their HDMI initialization, especially the audio portion, that AMD and NV implemented workarounds for within a month or two of this monitor's release. Intel apparently hasn't gotten the memo on this monitor.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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It's still good enough for those tasks which is what I use it for and why I haven't replaced it, but if anyone thinks it can even compare to newer hardware, they are deluding themselves.

I wouldn't go far as "delusion".

People experience it differently. One might need 60% increase to say its faster, while some may need only 5%. When you read video card forums they talk about how the claim that 60Hz is good enough is a fallacy, and some can't use 75Hz, or even 90Hz. Well, I think the issue is *being used to it*. If 90Hz is your everyday monitor, then you can't stand anything lower than 90Hz. Because that's your baseline.

But there's far less gain going from 30Hz to 60Hz than 60Hz to 90Hz.

Same with CPU. Core 2 is *good enough*. Of course if that's your everyday system and you use it for 3-4 years, you may get used to it and no longer believe its fast. That doesn't mean Core 2 sucks now, its just worse than what's out there right now.

And there is a definite advantage for people satisfied with "slower computers". They saved a lot of money not getting the latest.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
126
Same with CPU. Core 2 is *good enough*.

And there is a definite advantage for people satisfied with "slower computers". They saved a lot of money not getting the latest.

Of course, if they make their living in any way with their PC, then they are being pretty foolish by not upgrading regularly. Just my IMHO.

Then again, I've spent countless dollars "upgrading", and still don't have all that much to show for it. Mostly because I buy in the budget range.

If I had to, I could have easily stuck with my two C2Q Q9300 rigs. They were more than enough for what I used them for, really. Sure, the newer architectures are "snappier", due to IPC and clock speed improvements and overclocking. But necessary? Nope.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,691
136
Of course, if they make their living in any way with their PC, then they are being pretty foolish by not upgrading regularly. Just my IMHO.

I'm still rocking along just fine on a mid-2012 3770non-K@4.3GHz + PCIe SSD. My old 920 is still fine for basic usage, and that one is 7 years old (got it early 2009). If a bit power hungry compared to more modern stuff...

Then again, I've spent countless dollars "upgrading", and still don't have all that much to show for it. Mostly because I buy in the budget range.

If I had to, I could have easily stuck with my two C2Q Q9300 rigs. They were more than enough for what I used them for, really. Sure, the newer architectures are "snappier", due to IPC and clock speed improvements and overclocking. But necessary? Nope.

High-end CPUs hold their value much better then the low-end stuff IMHO. I don't see a need to upgrade until next years Skylake-E. At which point I'll have got 5 years out of that 3770. Not a bad haul at all.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
If you want snappy, you go Skylake with Speedshift support (MSI mobo for example.).

Assuming you dont run full speed all the time.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I'm not debating the number of IP connectiosn being made. I'm saying a modern day i7 will certainly load pages quicker then a C2D. Heck, you can even see a difference in load times when people do video comparisons from one smartphone to the next newest smart phone, so please don't tell me there isn't one, because that's nothing short of wrong.
With pages that have a lot of necessary javascript, there can be pretty hefty differences (with passive pages, there really isn't any, though). Not only that, but cut-down newer CPUs, like mobile Haswell (and soon, Skylake) Celerons and Pentiums, are way peppier for things like web browsing, even if ALU-bound, more than memory-bound, benchmarks are unimpressive. But, (a) even the latest i7s are no match for all the connections building up, on popular sites, and (b) while Chrome does it some, Firefox is really bad about hogging the CPU to busy-wait, so all that CPU usage is not necessarily indicative of more work needing to be done to render the page, as you're waiting for it to finish loading (if I temporarily disable ad-blocking, it'll hog 13% until the page is done, and it's mostly the round-trips to a bazillion different domains adding up that makes the time).

Ad-blocking makes a far greater speed difference than a few CPU generations, as does NoScript (but, uBO or ABP or ABE can be used by anyone, while NoScript takes us crazy people to put up with :)). I can bear a Core 2 with such blocking extensions in place. An i7-6700 without them, though, on fiber, even, is just too damned slow. The difference, without preventing all those unnecessary connections, isn't much, IME. When the 50ms here, and 100ms there, keep piling on, especially if changes made to the page with Javascript then cause it load more Javascript from elsewhere, and it ends up taking seconds, no matter the CPU. With sites using Javascript like that, caching can't help much, either.

For example, cnn.com, with uBlock Origin running, in FF, on an i5-3470:
Over 400ms for global.css, which it waits for, before continuing.
Over a full second for the next batch of CSS and Javascript files, with some font query CSS URL taking the longest.
Then, a lot of small wait times, like 10-20ms.
Then, many zone-manager.html pages, most of which take little time, but one takes over a second, again, and ti seems to wait until they are done to move on.
Then, it's running through a batch of JPGs.
It's past the 3.5s mark, now, as it takes awhile to load CNNVideoBootstrapper.js, and related files.
It then has several queries to related domains, which won't get any benefit from caching, and which are done in succession, adding about another half a second.
Several more javascript files get loaded at the end.

Edit: wiith a Core 2 Duo 2.13GHz, also with uBlock Origin on, that front page takes ~6.5s, instead of ~5.5s, cold. IMO, there's no excuse for any site to take more than ~2s, if all I'm doing is consuming content on it.

By the time it was done, it had made 115 connections, with many of them blocking the rest of the page from loading until they finished, resulting in over 5 seconds of load time with a cold cache, and over 4 on reload (the queries take up almost all the time, with the warm cache). Now, I don't normally go to CNN.com, but that was a site I could think of off the top of my head that exhibits such problems. Big blog sites, newer forum websites, news sites I might visit due to interest, etc., though, do the same sort of thing, quite commonly, and getting rid of connections that aren't necessary is the only good way to speed them up. A Core 2 might take 2-3x as long to compile and initially run some of the javascript, but that's not a majority of the load time. Most such websites' load times seem dominated by ads, trackers, widgets, etc., and extensions like ad-blockers, Ghostery, and NoScript make huge differences, much more than CPUs, once you're above Atoms and cats.
 
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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Of course, if they make their living in any way with their PC, then they are being pretty foolish by not upgrading regularly. Just my IMHO.

Then again, I've spent countless dollars "upgrading", and still don't have all that much to show for it. Mostly because I buy in the budget range.

If I had to, I could have easily stuck with my two C2Q Q9300 rigs. They were more than enough for what I used them for, really. Sure, the newer architectures are "snappier", due to IPC and clock speed improvements and overclocking. But necessary? Nope.

No Larry, you just have spent so much time screwing around with under performing rigs.

If a person buys an i3/i5 recent processor, they're not upgrading regularly. There is no reason to. Have you even been paying attention? PC Sales are slowing down because people aren't upgrading regularly. When Sandybridge is pretty close to current Skylake processors, why upgrade? Hence the reason people are still holding on to old i3s/i5s. That's why the recommendation for users is to buy a current gen i3/i5, and hold it. You can hold it for almost 5-7 years.

But you insist on spending far in excess of what I spent on an i7 on rigs with very little to show for it.

You won't see me upgrading my 4770k soon. And that was under $300.
 

Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Have to agree there, Larry :/ It makes me nuts to see people "playing poor" and tooling around blowing good money on low-end machines, in excess of one good one. It's like hipsters dumpster-diving.

I'm stuck on an 8 year old mobile Core 2 Duo machine because I'm freaking poor, not because it's some kind of hobby. If you're going to mess around with low-end hardware, run an OS that works well on it and give it proper support (tiny SSD boot volume). This stuff is for people who have no choice, like me.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
126
Have you even been paying attention? PC Sales are slowing down because people aren't upgrading regularly.

I thought that the reason was the overall economy, and that people don't have as much disposable income to upgrade. At least, that's what Intel told investors (not in so many words, I believe that they used "macroeconomic condition").
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
I thought that the reason was the overall economy, and that people don't have as much disposable income to upgrade. At least, that's what Intel told investors (not in so many words, I believe that they used "macroeconomic condition").

Correct. See other companies, Apple, Qualcomm, MediaTek, HTC, Samsung etc. All in big production cuts.

Last week South Korean export and import YoY was revealed. 18.5% less export, 20% less import.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Have to agree there, Larry :/ It makes me nuts to see people "playing poor" and tooling around blowing good money on low-end machines, in excess of one good one. It's like hipsters dumpster-diving.

I'm stuck on an 8 year old mobile Core 2 Duo machine because I'm freaking poor, not because it's some kind of hobby. If you're going to mess around with low-end hardware, run an OS that works well on it and give it proper support (tiny SSD boot volume). This stuff is for people who have no choice, like me.

:thumbsup:
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
131
106
Correct. See other companies, Apple, Qualcomm, MediaTek, HTC, Samsung etc. All in big production cuts.

Last week South Korean export and import YoY was revealed. 18.5% less export, 20% less import.

None of that us telling is the reason for the slow down, which is what they are debating. That just confirms there is a slow down, which no one is arguing against.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,327
10,035
126
None of that us telling is the reason for the slow down, which is what they are debating. That just confirms there is a slow down, which no one is arguing against.

Demand for tech products is down, because consumer spending and disposable income is down. Pretty straightforward.

It's not simply that "PC are lasting longer these days, so people are buying less". Sure, that might be part of it, but it's not the whole picture, and what about those companies that aren't "PC companies", like Qualcomm? The whole "people aren't upgrading their PCs" doesn't explain the downturn of those companies, but the entire global economy tanking quite a bit does. Jimmy can't afford a new shiny cellphone every year.

Edit: And consumer spending and disposable income is down, because of wage stagnation, and the erosion of the middle-class.
 
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