On The Road To Socialism? We've Arrived!

[alchemize]

We know how Pat's articles have stirred cheers from the left wing in the past 8 years.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2147441
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2216724
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1083115
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1253059
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1379206
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1379949
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...did=1522503

So here's one for consideration...

On The Road To Socialism? We've Arrived!

Pat claims:

Add that 28% of GDP spent by the U.S. government to the 12% spent by states, counties and cities, and government will consume 40% of the economy in 2009.

40% of GDP is government? If not now, when are we socialist - when we hit 51%?


The example he gives about the California business owner is a fantastic example of "taxing the rich". As I posted in another thread...

The truth is that if Obama really wants to get after the "wealth" of this country and pass it on to the poor downtrodden masses, it doesn't happen on income tax.

Super-rich people are completely sheltered. Their income comes from a) tax free funds like muni bonds b) capital gains from the assets they own. They don't draw a salary or a paycheck.

Sounds like to me we're creating our own brand of socialism here in the US. The real "rich" are untouchable, while the upper-middle class (or lower-upper class for you two percent haters) are going to bear the brunt of this socialization.

 

[Genx87]

I wouldnt say hardcore socialist but we are fast approaching European style socialism. We couldnt even make it into the EU if we applied with our appalling double digit deficit spending.

 

[ayabe]

Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

 

[StageLeft]

I'm not sure at what point full blown socialism is defined at, but certainly if Obama is increasing the government's percentage of the economy, we are seeing the US move to that point. If this administration doesn't tone it back immediately, the US will have seen itself closely bridge that gap it had with Europe. I don't want to live in a Europe at all. If I did, I'd be there, no thank you.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

lol, yeah, like the links. I think people are finally starting to wake up to BHO's real vision instead of just playing apologist for him by blaming Bush. Hell, Buckley's kid woke up the other day and so did David Brooks.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

So they move it all into muni's and other tax shelters. And 20% isn't bad compared to 40%. Uber-rich will find plenty of ways to stay that way...

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

So they move it all into muni's and other tax shelters. And 20% isn't bad compared to 40%. Uber-rich will find plenty of ways to stay that way...

In this economy I would be all over Muni's. Arent they tax free?

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

So they move it all into muni's and other tax shelters. And 20% isn't bad compared to 40%. Uber-rich will find plenty of ways to stay that way...

In this economy I would be all over Muni's. Arent they tax free?

Generally yes. And of course if Obama takes away that exemption, then the market for munis goes away and so does the funding for our local socialist government growth. OOPS!

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

So they move it all into muni's and other tax shelters. And 20% isn't bad compared to 40%. Uber-rich will find plenty of ways to stay that way...

In this economy I would be all over Muni's. Arent they tax free?

Generally yes. And of course if Obama takes away that exemption, then the market for munis goes away and so does the funding for our local socialist government growth. OOPS!

Yeah I dunno about that, the bond market has collapsed, so in the short term I don't see that being a good place to park anything.

With regards to cap gains, I think he wants to go from 15% to ~28%, can't quote me on that but that sounds about right.

 

[piasabird]

The Rich can afford not to have Capital Gains; can you? Try cashing in your stock options now?

 

[imported_K3N]

Socialism is the government ownership to the means of production, and guess what? Nearly all production has either ceased to exist or are outsourced to other countries.

 

[fskimospy]

Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Rich can afford not to have Capital Gains; can you? Try cashing in your stock options now?

Uhm you do know what capital gains is based on right? actual gains.... I don't know too many people who have capital gains to report for 2008. If you do then you made some great plays and good job. I suppose if you are selling stock you bought a long time ago (i.e. when the dow was lower than it is now), then you would have to worry.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Not to mention that although they spend 40% of the money, they negotiate so poorly that they only get about 10% of the stuff.

That's hardly socialist at all.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Actually, the US is indeed approaching that point at least in a couple of areas. There is a lot of talk about nationalization of banks and some auto. It is, at least, no longer a joke.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Working on it. Didn the govt just buy 34% of citigroup? And there is talk about nationalizing the auto industry.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Working on it. Didn the govt just buy 34% of citigroup? And there is talk about nationalizing the auto industry.

Say the government nationalizes all the major banks and the auto industry. We're still nowhere close to socialist, as not only would the banks eventually be turned private again, but even if they weren't the vast vast majority of the means of production would remain private.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Working on it. Didn the govt just buy 34% of citigroup? And there is talk about nationalizing the auto industry.

Say the government nationalizes all the major banks and the auto industry. We're still nowhere close to socialist, as not only would the banks eventually be turned private again, but even if they weren't the vast vast majority of the means of production would remain private.

Vast but not "vast vast"; hell if these were not significant their complete fvckery at the moment wouldn't be causing the economy to be so badly screwed

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Working on it. Didn the govt just buy 34% of citigroup? And there is talk about nationalizing the auto industry.

Say the government nationalizes all the major banks and the auto industry. We're still nowhere close to socialist, as not only would the banks eventually be turned private again, but even if they weren't the vast vast majority of the means of production would remain private.

If we nationalize these huge industries what makes you think the govt wont go after others?
I didnt claim we were socialist anyways. I said we are heading very fast into the European model of socialism.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Banks with no solvency problems, but no capital can't finance the means of production. The government is very close to getting to pick and choose the means of production with the banks they have bailed out.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Banks with no solvency problems, but no capital can't finance the means of production. The government is very close to getting to pick and choose the means of production with the banks they have bailed out.

If the gov controlled where the buck started and stopped the rest would be substantially guided based on it, certainly.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Money is power.

Who has all the money, after taxing, indebting, and printing it? That is ALL you need to own the means of production, once you start buying all those evil companies. In this case, we?ve begun with the financials.

All you really need for socialism, or communism for that matter, is an absolute view that government is the answer. After that it is only a matter of time before you enact your vision.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: alchemize
We know how Pat's articles have stirred cheers from the left wing in the past 8 years.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2147441
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=2216724
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1083115
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1253059
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1379206
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=52&threadid=1379949
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...did=1522503

So here's one for consideration...

On The Road To Socialism? We've Arrived!

Pat claims:

Add that 28% of GDP spent by the U.S. government to the 12% spent by states, counties and cities, and government will consume 40% of the economy in 2009.

40% of GDP is government? If not now, when are we socialist - when we hit 51%?


The example he gives about the California business owner is a fantastic example of "taxing the rich". As I posted in another thread...

The truth is that if Obama really wants to get after the "wealth" of this country and pass it on to the poor downtrodden masses, it doesn't happen on income tax.

Super-rich people are completely sheltered. Their income comes from a) tax free funds like muni bonds b) capital gains from the assets they own. They don't draw a salary or a paycheck.

Sounds like to me we're creating our own brand of socialism here in the US. The real "rich" are untouchable, while the upper-middle class (or lower-upper class for you two percent haters) are going to bear the brunt of this socialization.

LOL! But but but the rich pay too much in taxes! Now you tell us they are sheltered. Please, would you right wingers make up your minds?

Some doctor was on here awhile back complaining about his high taxes. Well, he has high taxes because he doesn't have a well paid accountant, and that's the only reason, unless he has high debts as well, in which case, shame on him. Sell the Mercedes!

-Robert

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Someone should tell Pat that socialism is government ownership of the means of production, something that we are nowhere close to.

Working on it. Didn the govt just buy 34% of citigroup? And there is talk about nationalizing the auto industry.

Say the government nationalizes all the major banks and the auto industry. We're still nowhere close to socialist, as not only would the banks eventually be turned private again, but even if they weren't the vast vast majority of the means of production would remain private.

LMFAO!

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Obama is gonna nail them on capital gains, so they're not getting away.

So they move it all into muni's and other tax shelters. And 20% isn't bad compared to 40%. Uber-rich will find plenty of ways to stay that way...

In this economy I would be all over Muni's. Arent they tax free?

Generally yes. And of course if Obama takes away that exemption, then the market for munis goes away and so does the funding for our local socialist government growth. OOPS!

Obama can't take that 'exemption' away.

The US government is Constitutional prohibted from taxing (proper) municipal interest income. The states are Constitutionally prohibited from taxing US gov bonds.

I'd be wary of muni's though. Some states/cities look to be in precarious financial condition. I'd imagine the market is down for them, should result in good effective interest rate after taking the discount into consideration. However, if we hit a period of high inflation their value may fall dramatically. I.e., you could face risks of default and/or loss of principal if their ratings are lowered or high inflation occurs.

Fern