On the issue of Gun Control

Dameon

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
2,117
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http://dameon.meaux.net/guns/index.htm

This is a major project for my Argumentation and Advocacy course, I would appreciate any thoughts or comments you might have, as I am delivering this tomorrow evening. After the speech, there is a 15 minute Q & A session, and I know that some of the folks here would be good at finding any weakspots in my logic. ;)

Essentially, my opponent two weeks ago called for a complete ban on guns..... and this is my response.
 

Be prepared for those armed with statistics about accidental child shootings.
 

Feisters

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
577
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Thank you for posting that link. Although I am already familiar with most of what was presented, it is important that the truth be told. The core reason for the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution is for the population to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. Period. If the ATF (tyrannical government) attempts to seize your firearms, you are well in your 2nd Amendment rights to defend yourself against such an action. Of course if you aren't killed during the confrontation (which you probably will be), you'll have to face the liberal courts who wipe their asses with the Constitution.
 

Jumpem

Lifer
Sep 21, 2000
10,757
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I agree 110%! Guns equal freedom and the ability of the people to negate an overpowering government.

Those that forsake liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
 

PCAddict

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 1999
3,804
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That is a well-written piece. I couldn't agree more. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. It's on a bumper sticker, but it is the truth.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
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Once again, Kudos. That is a very well researched, very well thought out,and very well written argument. I could not agree with you more. I have been using very similar arguments for years, without factual evidence to back myself up. I have saved a copy of your argument and would like your permission to keep it. I am long past being a student, my only reason for keeping this is for the factual evidence. I even copied your name at the bottom of the page. I you would prefer that I don't keep it I will respect your wishes and delete it.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with your logic or your presentation. I feel you may want to consider your possible responses to the cookie cutter questions gun control advocates will throw at you.


Thanks for the read. Good Luck.
 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,105
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Just some of the downsides of having no firearms control

In 1992, 37,502 Americans were killed with firearms, in homicides, suicides and accidents. That's 103 American men, women and children every day

National Center for Health Statistics

Handguns were used to murder 14,204 people in this country in 1993 - up more than 5% from 1992.

FBI Uniform Crime Reports


18,152 Americans took their own lives with firearms in 1992.

National Center for Health Statistics

In 1992, 1,409 people were unintentionally killed with firearms.

National Center for Health Statistics

Every day, 15 children, aged 19 and under, are killed with guns.

National Center for Health Statistics

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, "In 1992, people armed with handguns committed nearly one million violent crimes."

Guns and Crime, April 1994

There are more than 222 million firearms in the possession of private citizens in the U.S. 76 million of the firearms in circulation are handguns.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

License firearms dealers sell an estimated 7.5 million guns per year, including 3.5 million handguns.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

Handgun homicides increased 48% from 1989 to 1993. Murders committed with all other weapons declined by 3%.

FBI Uniform Crime Reports

Every year, between 200,000-225,000 firmarms are reported stolen to the FBI.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

There are an estimated one million semi-automatic assault weapons in private hands in the U.S.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

A new handgun is produced every 20 seconds.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

In 1990, the cost of firearm injuries in the United States was an estimated $20.4 billion. This includes $1.4 billion for direct expenditures for health care and related goods, $1.6 billion in lost productivity resulting from injury-related illness and disability, and $17.4 billion in lost productivity from premature death.

Max and Rice, Health Affairs

Every six hours, a youth aged 10-19 commits suicide with a firearm - a total of 1,429 in 1992.

National Center for Health Statistics

In 1993, 70 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty - 50 with handguns.

FBI, Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted

In 1992, handguns were used to murder 36 people in Sweden, 97 in Switzerland, 60 in Japan, 128 in Canada, 33 in Great Britain, 13 in Australia, and 13,495 in the United States.

Embassies and foreign crime reporting agencies, FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

In 1993, there were only 251 justifiable handgun homicides by private citizens in the United States.

FBI Uniform Crime Reports

More Americans were murdered with firearms in the four years 1988-1991 than were killed in battle in the 8.5 years of the Vietnam War.

Department of Defense, Defense Almanac / FBI Uniform Crime Reports

In 1992, 37,502 Americans were killed with firearms, in homicides, suicides and accidents. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 47,364 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.

National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac

In 1990, nearly 3 of 4 juvenile murder offenders used handguns to perpetrate their crimes.

FBI Uniform Crime Reports

The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home and increases by five the chance of a suicide.

New England Journal of Medicine

Firearms kill more people between the ages of 15 and 24 than all natural causes combined. Firearms are the number two killer of men and women 10-34 years of age - second only to motor vehicle crashes.

National Center for Health Statistics


 

Dameon

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
2,117
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A few 2 minute reactions to your stats:

1) Suicide is bullshit.

While gun-related suicides were reduced by Canada's gun control legislation of 1978, the overall suicide rate did not go down at all: the gun-related suicides were replaced 100% by an increase in other types of suicide -- mostly jumping off bridges.

"The authors describe suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and methods used for suicide in Toronto for 5 years before and after enactment of Canadian gun control legislation in 1978. They also present data from San Diego, Calif., where state laws attempt to limit access to guns by certain psychiatric patients. Both sets of data indicate that gun control legislation may have led to decreased use of guns by suicidal men, but the difference was apparently offset by an increase in suicide by leaping.

So strike every single one of those about suicide. If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll find some way to do it. Unless you want to say killing yourself by slitting your wrist with a knife or jumping off a birdge is somehow better than with a gun.

2) "Every day, 15 children, aged 19 and under, are killed with guns.

National Center for Health Statistics"

Since when are 18 and 19 year olds children? Someone is doctoring some numbers there.
18 and 19 year olds are ADULTS. How many of these children are little gangbangers that were committing a crime to earn their death? The young adults who shot up Columbine were children too, and I for one am glad they are no longer part of this world.

3) Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Let's consider the homicide rate in the USA to be 50,000 per year (actually it is 21,597(FBI 1995 UCR),of which, firearms were used in 70%, but 50,000 is a nice round number). According to the BATF, there are approximately 50,000,000 handguns in the US. As a percentage of handguns owned to handguns used to commit murder, the figure is .001% (yes, that's 1/1000 of 1 percent). I ask of you, when less than 1 percent of handguns are misused, is there really a gun problem, or a criminal problem.
Or, let's just consider violent crime in general. According to the 1995 FBI Uniform Crime Report, there were slightly less than 1.8 million violent crimes in the US in 1995. Of this number, 30% involved the use of a firearm (any firearm, not just handguns). Thirty percent of 1.8 million is 540,000 instances where a firearm was used. Again, let's do the math. The BATF estimates that there are 200,000,000 firearms of all kinds in the US, but to illustrate my point more clearly, I will just use the figure for handguns instead of the figure for all kinds of firearms. The figure for handgun use in violent crime will be overstated by a factor of 4, but the percentage misused is so small anyway, that it does not really matter for the purpose of debate. The percentage misused is .01% (yes, that really is 1/100 of 1 percent). remember also, that the true figure is 4 times smaller than that. When less than 1% of firearms are used for criminal purposes, there is no "gun problem"

Furthermore, when you think of the fact that compared to 540,000 incidents where a firearm was used to 2 MILLION incidents of lives saved / crimes prevented by having a firearm (see article), you see that you are doing more damage by removing guns than having them.


4) Accidents???

Accidental gun deaths among children have declined by over 50 % in 25 years, even though the population (and the gun stock) has continued to increase.
Kopel, Guns: Who Should Have Them?, at 311 and National Safety Council, Accident Facts: 1998 Edition, at 18.

Accidental Death Rates for Children (ages 0-14)

Motor Vehicle 3,059
Drowning 1,060
Fires, burns 833
Mechanical Suffocation 459
Ingestion of Food or Object 213
Firearms 181
Figures are for 1995. National Safety Council, Accident Facts: 1998 Edition, at 10, 11, 18.

By your logic, we should ban fire instead of firearms, it kills 4 times as many children in a year.




 

Mithras

Senior member
Jun 5, 2000
234
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damocles: The only problem I have with your arguments is that they fail to make a distinction between legal and illegal firearms. If someone obtained their gun illegitimately (sp?) then a new law would not take that gun away. Making new LAWS about guns only changes the number of guns out there that were obtained LAWFULLY.
 

Dameon

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
2,117
1
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Thank you though damocles, I will address the numbers / issues you have tossed out on the page in the permanent edition.
 

Lalakai

Golden Member
Nov 30, 1999
1,634
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damocles is using data that has accurate numbers that were compiled with faulty parameters, resulting in a skewed compilation. Of the "teens" that were killed, how many were 17+ and gang related? Of the people armed with handguns who committed crimes, how many time were those handguns displayed or used???

sorry, but these numbers have already been shown to be largely invalid and so meaningless that they have no relevance.
 

Preyhunter

Golden Member
Nov 9, 1999
1,774
12
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Why all of the statistics from 1992 and 1993? As I recall, those were the bloodiest years in regards to firearms in our nation's history as it pertains to their use in criminal activity. Why not use statistics that are more relevant to where we are now, like 1998, 1999, or most of 2000? I'll tell you why, gun control advocates know that '92 and '93 were the bloodiest and it makes their argument look better than it actually is. Violent crimes involving firearms have come down dramatically since the statistics that were posted here.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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I must say that thats one stupid article, has some point but this guy is so biased that he cant make a reasonable point just with facts.

Look at this



<< The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. from 1948 to 1976 20 million Anti-Communists, Christians, political dissidents and pro reform groups, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews, gypsies, mentally ill people and other &quot;mongrelized peoples,&quot; unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977 1 million &quot;educated people,&quot; unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>>


What has that have to do with gun control? How can people defend themselves if the army is killing people? Or maybe his point is that where there is gun control the government is just getting ready to kill few million people.

This article looks like articles written by a cult leader preaching that gays are deamons and quoting the bible alot.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
That is the point that major gun control precludes gov't dictatorships where you have a defenceless population.
I have a problem where it states that 128 murders were committed in Canada with handguns. Its statisically proven that most are commited with rifles or shotguns and there are only about 200 a year total.
Handguns are prohibited weapons and very very unlikely to produce that
number of 128 more likely 12.8 or less
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
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Czar

We already know you've been brainwashed by your government, you don't need to keep reminding us.
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
3,426
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Or maybe his point is that where there is gun control the government is just getting ready to kill few million people.

Possibly, or at least the gov't won't have to worry about people fighting back when they start forcing unreasonable things down the throats of the general population. Does anyone remember Germany in the early and mid 30's? Hitler at that time sounded great and everyone went along with his gun control ideas. If we don't learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it. (Now who was it that originally said that?)
 

fdiskboy

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,328
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<< How can people defend themselves if the army is killing people? >>



That is the point exactly. If you have an armed populace, they use their guns to defend themselves.