On NV17 and NV25 Launching Schedule

[Leon]

Linky

According to the recent rumors we discovered at nV News, NVIDIA is planning to announce its new budget 3D solution aka NV17 in December and a new performance solution aka NV25 in January 2002. This way, NVIDIA is going to reposition its products once again, so that to place the upcoming NV25 into the upper market niche currently occupied by GeForce3 Ti 500. GeForce3 Ti 200 will become a typical gaming solution with the price around 4150, NV17 will be positioned as a budget graphics card fitting into $100 price group and GeForce2 Ti will move down to the Low-End market.
At the same time, GeForce2 MX family will nearly die out. Some time ago, at the threshold of the NV17 launching, NVIDIA ceased the production of GeForce2 MX 400 and GeForce2 MX 200 chips. As a result, the market is in great shortage now and it is very likely to last till the beginning of next year.
As for the features of NV17 and NV25, the picture is more or less clear even despite some remaining questions. NV25 will be manufactured with 0.13micron technology and will be very similar to GeForce3 architecture. However, the T&L unit will acquire a second vertex pipeline and the working frequency of the chip will be much higher. Also NV25 is expected to support TwinView and hardware iDCT. As for NV17, it is very likely to become a desktop analogy to the recently launched NV17M (see this news story). Although we suspect that it may have a more powerful T&L unit than its mobile counterpart, which will support vertex and pixel shaders and DirectX 8.

 

[chizow]

:yawn: :Q Just read all that for the same news I read a year ago, here's what the headline should be:

nVidia Brings Nothing New to the Table, Just More Frames That You Won't Notice Anyways

Still interesting to see the product roadmap, but honestly, its the same story with a different title. nVidia's learning well from Intel.

Chiz

 

[AA0]

you need more frames if you want a good looking picture, because their default IQ absolutely sucks. Lets not talking about ATI cheating on drivers, lets talk about Nvidia cheating since the start.

Since they will use the same drivers, you won't see a better IQ either, quite sad that a company is so inflexible.

 

[Leon]

With full range of LOD, anisotropic, and other adjustments, GeForce 3 can achieve much better IQ than Radeon 8500 with a simple tweaks. With Radeon 8500, anisotropic filtering only works with 10% of D3D games, since it cannot be forced.
More "fps" means better performance at very highest resolutions, with AA enabled.

But what am I saying, neither of you have GF3, so why bother and crap on the thread? Too desperate that ATI losing market share every day?

 

[chizow]

yep, reading that clip clinched me on the R8500 now that I know nVidia is just playing clockwars (ala Intel). Factor in the superior IQ, FSAA, DVD playback, hydravision, and features that aren't even implemented yet, getting a R8500 is an easy choice. Plus, I don't think I can justify spending more on a video card than I spent on my entire system. Its gonna be funny, the NV25 will have 350fps as opposed to the ti500's 330fps....I can't wait lmao. Placing my order with Dell when I get home. Need to concentrate with all those coupons

 

[chizow]

<< With full range of LOD, anisotropic, and other adjustments, GeForce 3 can achieve much better IQ than Radeon 8500 with a simple tweaks. With Radeon 8500, anisotropic filtering only works with 10% of D3D games, since it cannot be forced.
More "fps" means better performance at very highest resolutions, with AA enabled. >>


The difference is that the Radeon 8500 has nearly eclipsed the GF3 Ti500 with its latest drivers, and it has even more potential . Half of its features haven't even been implemented yet, and its architecture has the potential to blow the doors off any gf3 core. AMD proved that increased clock cycles can't substitute for superior architecture, so I guess nVidia is poised to learn the hard way. Anand stated in his first review of the Radeon 8500 that ATI was taking driver development very seriously with the Radeon 8500; the latest release reaffirmed this, and I'm only expecting better things for the future.



<< But what am I saying, neither of you have GF3, so why bother and crap on the thread? Too desperate that ATI losing market share every day? >>


You're right, because I haven't had the need for one. My V5 runs everything I throw at it the way I like it.....with awesome FSAA. I have a 19'' CRT, so I don't need 5000fps at 640x480 low res, and I also don't need 200fps at 2048x1024. I need around 60-100fps with FSAA enabled at 1024 or 1280 max resolution. My brother has a GF3 Ti200, its a good card, but it doesn't provide anything I need that my V5 can't do. Now that I can get a Radeon 8500 for the same price, which is not only faster, but offers everything I do want in a card, I made my choice.

I don't work for ATI, I don't own stock in ATI, and I've never owned one of their cards before, so I could really care less if they are losing market share or not. Competition is good!!! If it weren't for a competitive market, I'd probably be running a system with a Pentium 4 that cost me $6,000. I just find it humorous when the nVidia fanboys trump stuff like this up like its the second coming of Christ when its actually the second coming of the second coming of a card that came 2 years ago.

Chiz

 

[Leon]

<< The difference is that the Radeon 8500 has nearly eclipsed the GF3 Ti500 with its latest drivers, and it has even more potential >>



So does GF3



<< Half of its features haven't even been implemented yet >>



Yes, half of the features they promised is still broken in software, especially the ones important for developers (like fragment shader in OGL).



<< and its architecture has the potential to blow the doors off any gf3 core >>



GF3 4x64 crossbar memory architecture is more efficient than plain 2x128 on Radeon 8500



<< My V5 runs everything I throw at it the way I like it.....with awesome FSAA >>



Good for you, try Giants or MaxPayne @ 1600 1200 32bit...watch your fps fall to singe digits



<< and I also don't need 200fps at 2048x1024 >>



How about breaking 50fps at MaxPayne?. This is much more intensive demo that Anand uses, hence lower scores.



<< My brother has a GF3 Ti200, its a good card, but it doesn't provide anything I need that my V5 can't do. >>



3x performance of V5 at highest resolutions w/FSAA, much better texture filtering, and full DX8 support means nothing to you?

And last point-DVD playback on NV-25. Not only Nvidia have full IDCT now, they also implemented Inverse Quantization, decoding step that ATI lacks

 

[Smbu]

<< The difference is that the Radeon 8500 has nearly eclipsed the GF3 Ti500 with its latest drivers, and it has even more potential . Half of its features haven't even been implemented yet, and its architecture has the potential to blow the doors off any gf3 core. AMD proved that increased clock cycles can't substitute for superior architecture, so I guess nVidia is poised to learn the hard way. Anand stated in his first review of the Radeon 8500 that ATI was taking driver development very seriously with the Radeon 8500; the latest release reaffirmed this, and I'm only expecting better things for the future. >>


Wow, this was certainly very funny, especially the part I highlighted in bold. You do realize that the R8500 is running at 275mhz core/275mhz ram(effective 550mhz) as compared to the GF3 Ti500's 240mhz core/250mhz ram(effective 500mhz), right? ATI had to crank up the speed of the core and RAM on the R8500 cards to even begin to get close to the Ti500(running at slower core/ram speeds). Even then ATI hasn't been entirely successfull, since their higher clocked product is still slower in most every game.

 

[AGodspeed]

Lets not talking about ATI cheating on drivers, lets talk about Nvidia cheating since the start.

Please dump the ATidiotisms someplace else AA0. Your comments are getting old.

NV25 will be manufactured with 0.13micron technology and will be very similar to GeForce3 architecture.

Interesting. I thought Nvidia was going to move to a very different architecture (eg. like going from Intel's P6 to P7 architecture). I wonder how/if the crossbar architecture has been modified for NV25.

At the same time, GeForce2 MX family will nearly die out.

Might I ask where this leaves Nvidia's nForce solution? What's the leverage for OEMs to include nForce in their systems. Does integrated GeF2 MX graphics look that good in a month or two?

 

[Leon]

One thing I find interesting is that from the looks of it, NV-25 is exact copy of X-Box GPU, but clocked much higher (.13u process). With NForce architecture also similar to XBox, that brings a few interesting possibilities....
But first step of course is to crack DVD protection

Leon

 

[chizow]

Yes, half of the features they promised is still broken in software, especially the ones important for developers (like fragment shader in OGL).

Lol yep, they're broken now...its gonna be awful scary when they fix them.

GF3 4x64 crossbar memory architecture is more efficient than plain 2x128 on Radeon 8500

Maybe so, but I think we both know the memory bus is just a part of the equation. I could go on about how the 8500 has more theoretical bandwidth, more efficient rendering processes....etc etc.

Good for you, try Giants or MaxPayne @ 1600 1200 32bit...watch your fps fall to singe digits

Wow! You just named 2 of 3 the games that actually use hardware T&L!!! Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't play nor have any urge to play those games. Boycotted Interplay years ago b/c of their lack of post-release game support (looks like I don't have any choice in the matter now that they're outta business), and I don't play l337 r0xx0r Fp5 G4mz0rZ like |\/|4X p4yN3.....if I did I'd be raving about the 50mhz and 30 fps increase in frames on my $400 GF3 Ti500 like the rest of the nVidiots.

3x performance of V5 at highest resolutions w/FSAA, much better texture filtering, and full DX8 support means nothing to you?

Nope, my V5 looks better in FSAA head-to-head in every game I own vs. my bro's GF3 Ti200, and with my raging rig, my frame rates are just fine thank you And why are you comparing a 2 year old card from a dead chipmaker to a state of the art GF3 Ti500??? I'm just stating how I'm going to get the best of both worlds....awesome FSAA and 2D, all with the promise of better things in the future. Best part is it'll have the speed to match a GF3.

And last point-DVD playback on NV-25. Not only Nvidia have full IDCT now, they also implemented Inverse Quantization, decoding step that ATI lacks

Fancy vaporware words, you sound like you know it intimately even though the card is months from release. Question is will it make up for the GeForce's fundamentally poor IQ?

 

[chizow]

SMBU

The point of the analogy is that nVidia hasn't brought anything new to the table in the way of features and ground-breaking technology...they just keep cranking up the juice. Look at the IQ, it hasn't changed in 4 card generations and its FSAA is still ugly!

Chiz

 

[Leon]

<< Lol yep, they're broken now...its gonna be awful scary when they fix them. >>



No, not scary. They introducing the extensions with functionality Nvidia had since GF2.



<< I could go on about how the 8500 has more theoretical bandwidth, more efficient rendering processes....etc etc >>



Please enlighten us. Especially I would like a part about efficiency of combiner extension in OpenGL.



<< Wow! You just named 2 of 3 the games that actually use hardware T&L!!! >>



There are over 100 games that use it. Heck, screw MP, fire up RTCW or Serious Sam at very high resolution, and watch you fps drop into single digits



<< Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't play nor have any urge to play those games. and I don't play l337 r0xx0r Fp5 G4mz0rZ like |\/|4X p4yN3 >>



I know, I know. Deer Hunter games are much more fun



<< if I did I'd be raving about the 50mhz and 30 fps increase in frames on my $400 GF3 Ti500 >>



GF3 TI500 is $280. GF3 TI-200 is $99 @ Best Buy.



<< Nope, my V5 looks better in FSAA head-to-head in every game I own vs. my bro's GF3 Ti200, and with my raging rig, my frame rates are just fine thank you >>



9fps @ 1024 768 32bit 4x FSAA in Serious Sam must be fun That with bilinear filtering, and no anistropy.



<< I'm just stating how I'm going to get the best of both worlds....awesome FSAA and 2D >>



According to some reviews, Leaktek TI500 have better image quality than Matrox G500. That sayin' something



<< Fancy vaporware words, you sound like you know it intimately even though the card is months from release >>



I suggest you do some research Look at NV-17M specs, sign for things to come.

 

[AGodspeed]

I suggest you do some research Look at NV-17M specs, sign for things to come.

That's right. Read it and weep chizow.

 

[chizow]

Umm....I think you need to re-read the latest AT article, seems like the 8500 does fine vs the Ti500 in OGL games and the rest of the games you listed above. Not only that but Smooth Vision AA knocks the bottom out of nVidia's QuinCoyoteUgly AA. Despite all of its "problems" in OGL, it manages to look better and run at similar frames to the Ti500. Pretty impressive...can't wait til they fix it Seems like the 8500 also does extremely well in HW T&L games as well......I don't see any single digit frame rates...weird. Oh nevermind, you're comparing the Ti500 to the V5 again lmao. Its funny that you mention the GF3 Ti200 and GF2 Ti200, because its clear after the latest driver release that the R8500 > GF3 Ti200 > GF2 Ti200. Just look at the FS/FT forum with all the GF3 Ti200 owners trying to unload their cards for Radeons 8500's lol. As for pricing...yah, lets quote the 5 hour sale on the GF3 Ti200 from BB...that makes a lot of sense. I guess you've never played any other games other than single player HW intensive games....because those are the games you make comparisons to every time. I play online games, simply b/c its more of a challenge and the gameplay is engrossing. System constraints prevent these games from being on the bleeding edge of technology. If I wanted the ultimate gaming machine for single player games, I'd just buy an X-Box for the same price and call it a day.

Chiz

 

[chizow]

<< I suggest you do some research Look at NV-17M specs, sign for things to come.

That's right. Read it and weep chizow. >>



Man, I clicked on that link and the weirdest thing happened......I got some half-azzed video of something falling off and then burning followed by this message:

Sorry for the inconvenience, our site is temporarily down. We did not plug enough nTELmicroVidia$oftium products this month and therefore, we did not get paid.

Your buddy,

T*M

This site is powered by Dual nTELmicroVidia$oftium servers because they are the best and Athlons are really, really, really, unstable.....really. T*M is in no way affiliated with nTELmicroVidia$oftium. Scouts honor. Peace


I guess I'll try that link later

Chiz

 

[AGodspeed]

LOL at Chizow. I see you're an ATidiot AND an Intel zealot (or maybe not, since you have an Athlon XP...). Great combo there. Looks like you can't except NV17M technology, why else would you make such stupid comments.

 

[EMAN]

LOL at Chizow. I see you're an ATidiot AND an Intel zealot (or maybe not, since you have an Athlon XP...). Great combo there. Looks like you can't except NV17M technology, why else would you make such stupid comments.

If he's an ATidiot than I guess rest of you are Nvidiots.


Why oh why did Nvidia drop the price on the TI200 in such a short time? Because ATI is kicking a$$ and actually have something Nvidia doesn't.

Features!

 

[Compellor]

<< Why oh why did Nvidia drop the price on the TI200 in such a short time? Because ATI is kicking a$$ and actually have something Nvidia doesn't.

Features! >>



Of which few of them will rarely get used. The AA is about it at this point in time, which NVIDIA already has. So, what's the point in arguing over meaningless sh!t like "features"? There is none!

 

[Leon]

chizow-congratulations, you are very good at trolling. Nice attempt to change the subject

Here is another one for you. So much for vaporware specs

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/nv17m/index.html



<< MPEG2 (DVD) Hardware Decoding. It is a good response to the hardware IDCT conversion which has been living in ATI products for a long time already. The NV17M implements IDCT and IQ (Inverse Quantization -ATI can't fulfill this initial stage of decoding) on the hardware level, as well as Motion Compensation and Color Space Conversion. It is stated that the utilization of the processor decoding a DVD video stream is 3 times lower now (from 45% to 15%), which is a large commitment to the overall power consumption of a notebook.
>>





<< Seems like the 8500 also does extremely well in HW T&L games as well...... >>



It depends on which game...



<< Not only that but Smooth Vision AA knocks the bottom out of nVidia's QuinCoyoteUgly AA >>



FSAA is subjective, and I would like to see more articles on that before declaring winner. For example, Smoothvision in D3D is noticably blurrier than GF3 FSAA, but cleans the jaggies better.

4x SV (quality)

GF3 4x FSAA



<< s for pricing...yah, lets quote the 5 hour sale on the GF3 Ti200 from BB >>



Funny, this deal was going for the last 2 days, and there is still a lot of store carrying these...



<< I play online games, >>



?

Quake 3? UT ? RTCF? Serious Sam?

They are all online games

 

[EMAN]

Of which few of them will rarely get used. The AA is about it at this point in time, which NVIDIA already has. So, what's the point in arguing over meaningless sh!t like "features"? There is none!

Features like Truform is used in Half-Life or Unreal Tournament I guess there is no features.:disgust: Smoothvision makes texture better looking. I guess that's not a feature too huh.

 

[Compellor]

<< Of which few of them will rarely get used. The AA is about it at this point in time, which NVIDIA already has. So, what's the point in arguing over meaningless sh!t like "features"? There is none!

Features like Truform is used in Half-Life or Unreal Tournament I guess there is no features.:disgust: Smoothvision makes texture better looking. I guess that's not a feature too huh. >>



Uhh... yeah, whatever... Smoothvison is AA with a major performance hit compared to the GeForce 3 Ti 500.

 

[Chubbz]

ATI Radeon 8500 is very determined to bring nVidia down. Sh!t is gonna go down...

 

[Chubbz]

oh yeah, which one's cheaper?

 

[EMAN]

Uhh... yeah, whatever... Smoothvison is AA with a major performance hit compared to the GeForce 3 Ti 500.

Yeah whatever to you man. Smoothvision looks better. Turn on Anisotropic filter than your geforce is going to choke too.

Who would actually use AA in a FPS game anyway. Higher resolution and Anisotropic Filter is where it's at for FPS games. Racing games need FSAA and smoothvision is plenty fast for racing games.