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On fairness, equality and other things.

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The advances in genetics are huge and have major political implications... but I'm not sure I follow your question. Can you give me an example of tools of science being used to overcome inherent disparities?

Can I give you examples like that? Can we alter genes to provide people with the traits they want yet? If we can, is it being done?

What I can tell you is that if we adhered to nature's strict Darwinian principles, we would not care for the sick, the disabled or the poor. We'd just eliminate them. But we don't do that. So yes, we do use the tools of science to overcome disparities, inherent or not.

I don't know if you have, but if you haven't, you might want to go through all my previous posts in their entirety and in detail.
 
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Can I give you examples like that? Can we alter genes to provide people with the traits they want yet? If we can, is it being done?

What I can tell you is that if we adhered to nature's strict Darwinian principles, we would not care for the sick, the disabled or the poor. We'd just eliminate them. But we don't do that. So yes, we do use the tools of science to overcome disparities, inherent or not.

I don't know if you have, but if you haven't, you might want to go through all my previous posts in their entirety and in detail.

I'm just trying to make sure I understand you because your posts aren't completely clear (and are full of edits). Kind of like your "location" under your avatar... an answer that doesn't really tell anything, your posts are a little vague.

As far as I know we can alter genes and make genetically superior products in some cases. I do not think that's being done at the human level. Do you propose giving "super genes" to people who are lacking is desirable qualities?
 
I'm just trying to make sure I understand you because your posts aren't completely clear (and are full of edits). Kind of like your "location" under your avatar... an answer that doesn't really tell anything, your posts are a little vague.

As far as I know we can alter genes and make genetically superior products in some cases. I do not think that's being done at the human level. Do you propose giving "super genes" to people who are lacking is desirable qualities?

The edits were made precisely to make the posts more clear, so I don't get how that negates the quality of the posts.

It'd be nice to give people the traits they want so that they don't have to suffer the indignity of being inferior to someone else in terms of intellectual potential, physical beauty, physical fitness etc. (in their own view, if that's what they choose). But this opens up a whole other host of implications I guess and it doesn't really fit the philosophical view of people being "equal" no matter how they're born (the type of argument Moonbeam has provided).
 
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The Catholic Church proposed a long time ago that all people were equal in the eyes of God, and since then we have expanded that to "equal in the eyes of the law," which was a nice progression and is still expanding. But, I am not sure there is any big push to make everyone genetically equal.

I guess I just don't see a real big problem with individuals having varying strengths and weaknesses. I suppose over time we may be able to lower or weed out certain medical/health issues, but there doesn't seem to be any desire to make people equal at the biological level.
 
The Catholic Church proposed a long time ago that all people were equal in the eyes of God, and since then we have expanded that to "equal in the eyes of the law," which was a nice progression and is still expanding. But, I am not sure there is any big push to make everyone genetically equal.

I guess I just don't see a real big problem with individuals having varying strengths and weaknesses. I suppose over time we may be able to lower or weed out certain medical/health issues, but there doesn't seem to be any desire to make people equal at the biological level.

Whether that desire exists or not will be decided by individual people themselves. It shouldn't be something that's forced but something that's chosen. Much like many women who have small breasts choose to have breast implants.
 
people are inherently unequal. simply look at men vs. women.

you're looking to get equal outcome, which is impossible, and IMO, unethical, if not immoral.

no amount of legislation can ever change that.
 
people are inherently unequal. simply look at men vs. women.

you're looking to get equal outcome, which is impossible, and IMO, unethical, if not immoral.

no amount of legislation can ever change that.

I'm sorry, it's a little frustrating that some people are repeating the same thing over and over again, perhaps in some cases without reading all the posts in detail.

I'm not looking to get equal outcomes (if at all) the way you're probably talking about.

Again, this isn't (just) about legislation but about addressing these inherent inequalities if people choose for them to be addressed.
 
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The edits were made precisely to make the posts more clear, so I don't get how that negates the quality of the posts.

It'd be nice to give people the traits they want so that they don't have to suffer the indignity of being inferior to someone else in terms of intellectual potential, physical beauty, physical fitness etc. (in their own view, if that's what they choose). But this opens up a whole other host of implications I guess and it doesn't really fit the philosophical view of people being "equal" no matter how they're born (the type of argument Moonbeam has provided).

What I am saying is that the problem you want to solve solves itself when you see that it doesn't exist, that everybody is equal because everybody is perfect. It is only the delusion of inferiority created by self hate that make people long to be something other than they are. No animal suffers from feeling inferior because they don't intellectually compare. He who has no self hate can never feel inferior to anybody else. When you are who you are in all its perfection you don't need any other affirmation. The world is full of beauty and all that beauty exists not out there but in the eye of the self. We are the beauty that we see. The beauty that exists for the perfect is seen in every other self. When you love yourself equality is real. To see inequality is the result of belief in a delusional state. You can perhaps not appreciate how deep that delusion runs and how much we cling to it.
 
The Catholic Church proposed a long time ago that all people were equal in the eyes of God, and since then we have expanded that to "equal in the eyes of the law," which was a nice progression and is still expanding. But, I am not sure there is any big push to make everyone genetically equal.

I guess I just don't see a real big problem with individuals having varying strengths and weaknesses. I suppose over time we may be able to lower or weed out certain medical/health issues, but there doesn't seem to be any desire to make people equal at the biological level.

I think that means that no one human is inferior/superior to another human.
 
What I am saying is that the problem you want to solve solves itself when you see that it doesn't exist, that everybody is equal because everybody is perfect. It is only the delusion of inferiority created by self hate that make people long to be something other than they are. No animal suffers from feeling inferior because they don't intellectually compare. He who has no self hate can never feel inferior to anybody else. When you are who you are in all its perfection you don't need any other affirmation. The world is full of beauty and all that beauty exists not out there but in the eye of the self. We are the beauty that we see. The beauty that exists for the perfect is seen in every other self. When you love yourself equality is real. To see inequality is the result of belief in a delusional state. You can perhaps not appreciate how deep that delusion runs and how much we cling to it.

I totally get what you're trying to say even if you think that I don't. And I even agree with you.

But philosophy aside, I'm looking at things pragmatically, although the way we conduct our pragmatism should be influenced by philosophy.

What you're saying is kind of like, "Cancer is not a disease but simply a way in which cells function depending on the way we look at it". Objectively, that's even true in a sense. But practically, we don't treat it that way.
 
I totally get what you're trying to say even if you think that I don't. And I even agree with you.

But philosophy aside, I'm looking at things pragmatically, although the way we conduct our pragmatism should be influenced by philosophy.

What you're saying is kind of like, "Cancer is not a disease but simply a way in which cells function depending on the way we look at it". Objectively, that's even true in a sense. But practically, we don't treat it that way.

Yes, except that the way you view things isn't very pragmatic since you want the world to change instead of only yourself. But I did explain that I believe your view has its own motivation. To truly appreciate the difficulties of self change you would have to understand the depth to which we are subject to self hate and how we would do anything rather than see it.

We are magnetized by the notion of inequality because we want to be.
 
A fair and equal society is not even desirable. It encourages complacency. Fair and equal is a progressive dream that must be kept in check or we'll all be equally miserable with no reason to excel at anything.

You may think your dog loves you but he's smart enough to know that his basic need is being met with virtually no effort on his part. He's being fed. The bonus is that he's in out of the weather too. The difference between him and a human is that he doesn't possess the capacity for greed and envy. He's happy with what's provided for him. A capacity most humans don't possess because our nature is to to try to achieve more. It's something that our modern society represses as the nanny state flourishes in attempts to gain political favor within the masses.

Humans need three things to survive in the U.S. of A. Food, clothing and shelter. That's it. How many in this country have died of starvation? Clothing is plentiful. How many died from exposure to the elements? How many are happy with just those three things?

We guarantee equal opportunity for our citizens but not equal outcome. That's essentially the answer to the OP's post. The answer to the question raised. We cannot legislate equal outcome. It's little more than common sense. Instead of teaching our children that it's wrong for others to have more than they do, we should start again teaching them that there are no limits on what they can achieve. It will take three generations to turn things around. Time is short.

If you believe that there is equal opportunity in the US for someone graduating nowadays then you must be in an echo chamber of the conservative dream instead of reality.

A "fair and equal" society doesn't even make sense and is some undefined imagination that you think that the phantom "progressives" in this country want. You've been taught well by your masters!
 
I'm sorry, it's a little frustrating that some people are repeating the same thing over and over again, perhaps in some cases without reading all the posts in detail.

I'm not looking to get equal outcomes (if at all) the way you're probably talking about.

Again, this isn't (just) about legislation but about addressing these inherent inequalities if people choose for them to be addressed.

you're basically asking why some people are smart and other's aren't, and saying that is unfair.

there are a number of factors that go into development. part of it is nature, part of it is nurture. some people's parents gave two shits about raising their children, while others simply let kids grow up doing i dont know what.

nature isn't fair.
 
I'm not saying it is. And that's precisely what I'm saying. Nature's not fair. But we can use that fact and work on it to make society a fairer place. We can do that with inherent disparities through things like genetic engineering etc. And yes, environmental factors play a role too.

If we simply said nature's not fair and did nothing about it, why have any legislations and laws that promote fair practices, equal opportunity etc. at all? Why care for the sick and the disabled? We might as well live in a dog eat dog world.

Somehow, the fact that intrinsic and extrinsic disparities are viewed in the sense that one can't or doesn't ever need to be changed while the other can and should be baffles me.

Some of these extrinsic disparities we see may partly be due to intrinsic disparities. We can use all the laws and legislations in the world and still wind up with the same problems of inequality that we have today if we don't address biological disparities. And they can be addressed. Maybe not just yet. But the tools to address them are coming.
 
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A fair and equal society is not even desirable. It encourages complacency. Fair and equal is a progressive dream that must be kept in check or we'll all be equally miserable with no reason to excel at anything.

You may think your dog loves you but he's smart enough to know that his basic need is being met with virtually no effort on his part. He's being fed. The bonus is that he's in out of the weather too. The difference between him and a human is that he doesn't possess the capacity for greed and envy. He's happy with what's provided for him. A capacity most humans don't possess because our nature is to to try to achieve more. It's something that our modern society represses as the nanny state flourishes in attempts to gain political favor within the masses.

Humans need three things to survive in the U.S. of A. Food, clothing and shelter. That's it. How many in this country have died of starvation? Clothing is plentiful. How many died from exposure to the elements? How many are happy with just those three things?

We guarantee equal opportunity for our citizens but not equal outcome. That's essentially the answer to the OP's post. The answer to the question raised. We cannot legislate equal outcome. It's little more than common sense. Instead of teaching our children that it's wrong for others to have more than they do, we should start again teaching them that there are no limits on what they can achieve. It will take three generations to turn things around. Time is short.

I used to think this. Partially at least. Reality is different though once you actually see it in action.

I live in one of those socialist European leftist countries now. Been living on and off here and in the USA so I've seen both. If I had to kinda summarize both systems here's what you get:

USA
The rich, powerful, smart, and best of the best have nearly unlimited opportunities to do anything they want. It's not as great as it used to be since the competition is incredible for those few positions but it's still very true. If you're the best of the best then this is the country for you.

The rest of the population nobody gives a shit about though. There's no real job security since unions are frowned upon, health care is expensive, school is expensive, daycare is expensive, you get almost no vacation, no social benefits, etc. You basically work for the best of the best and spend all your money on survival. There's no way to get ahead unless you are the best of the best, come from a rich/powerful family, or get lucky.

Today we have a population that is increasingly in debt and spending all their money on daycare, health insurance, etc while making 0.5% on any money they do manage to squirrel away. Greater parts of the population keep blowing wealth by investing it in the dot com bubble and inflated real estate while the wealth gap grows larger. When they retire they'll be living on a whooping $2000 a month in social security and 401K benefits.

We get told that we pay less in taxes so that we have the choice to buy what we want with our money. That doesn't work very well for the regular Joe. It just saves the rich an enormous amount of money.

Europe (at least the countries I've lived in)
There is a social backbone in society that says that as long as you work you get social benefits. Vacation, sick leave, maternity leave, reasonable percentage of your salary as pension, health care, college educations, day care, etc.

You pay more in taxes to get these benefits.

Unions have power so people have job stability. You still can get fired. If they write you up 3 times you're out. However you don't have these absurdly low salaries that would leave people in poverty. People at fast food restaurants and retail shops probably make more than many of you since they make $20 or more per hour in places like Norway. Yeah, people at McDonalds make $20 or more per hour as unskilled labor. They don't mind paying $2 for a hamburger instead of $1. People pay more for goods and services so that they don't have large portions of their population scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Overall you have a healthier, more intelligent, and more robust society. Where I see the big difference is that most people are going to be making between say $45,000 and $55,000 and the exceptional will not be able to make those $100,000,000 a year salaries. So while you can look at averages I think it would be interesting to look at an overall distribution. In the USA the top 20% of the population own 85% of the wealth. You don't see that kind of inequality here. What's very telling is that when we had the financial meltdown in 2007 and 2008 the rich got richer in the USA.

Look at the countries that have high innovation. The USA is obviously in the top 5 every year followed by countries like Germany, Finland, Sweden, and Denmark. Super highly socialist countries are the main competition. Norway ranks as the most productive country if you look at GDP per hour worked.

It's really fascinating when stereotypes and political talking points meet reality. Europe is not in a great spot right now, just like the USA, but when you start looking at the overall quality of life in Northern and Mainland Europe they have it way better than Americans do. In my opinion at least.

Are people lazy here? Some. Are people lazy in the USA? Some. The only difference is that the lazy here get more benefits.
 
And Harrison Bergeron.

Making everyone equal by dragging the best down is one approach, but it doesn't work very well.

If you want innovation, you have to let the entrepreneurs profit from their work. The socialist countries might have better quality of life for the masses, but that's partly from piggy-backing off of the work of the more innovative countries.

Take taxes for example: they're probably too low for top earners in the US, but make them high enough like France just tried to do and the people leave or stop trying.

Zimbabwe destroyed its economy in part by driving out the people that actually knew how to farm.

The better approach is trying to offer more equal chances to succeed, accepting that some will make better use of it than others. Even when you equalize education and other opportunities, some have more drive than others. Despite a good education and being reasonably intelligent, I'm far too lazy to ever start my own company.
 
And Harrison Bergeron.

Making everyone equal by dragging the best down is one approach, but it doesn't work very well.

If you want innovation, you have to let the entrepreneurs profit from their work. The socialist countries might have better quality of life for the masses, but that's partly from piggy-backing off of the work of the more innovative countries.

Take taxes for example: they're probably too low for top earners in the US, but make them high enough like France just tried to do and the people leave or stop trying.

Zimbabwe destroyed its economy in part by driving out the people that actually knew how to farm.

The better approach is trying to offer more equal chances to succeed, accepting that some will make better use of it than others. Even when you equalize education and other opportunities, some have more drive than others. Despite a good education and being reasonably intelligent, I'm far too lazy to ever start my own company.

Part of giving them an equal chance of succeeding would be to give them similar levels of potential through genetic engineering. Dunno why that's constantly ignored. No point in trying to give people equal opportunities when people with more potential have a higher chance of using those opportunities and amassing knowledge, wealth, power etc. It's probably an inevitable stage to go through before people can finally accept the truth about their insignificance and how much out of control they really are.
 
Part of giving them an equal chance of succeeding would be to give them similar levels of potential through genetic engineering. Dunno why that's constantly ignored. No point in trying to give people equal opportunities when people with more potential have a higher chance of using those opportunities and amassing knowledge, wealth, power etc. It's probably an inevitable stage to go through before people can finally accept the truth about their insignificance and how much out of control they really are.

Where did you get the idea that opportunities aren't infinite, that attitude collapses despair.

I have never known anybody to be in trouble who went straight ahead. A saying

Before Mohamed, Mecca was sand. Another saying
 
Part of giving them an equal chance of succeeding would be to give them similar levels of potential through genetic engineering. Dunno why that's constantly ignored. No point in trying to give people equal opportunities when people with more potential have a higher chance of using those opportunities and amassing knowledge, wealth, power etc. It's probably an inevitable stage to go through before people can finally accept the truth about their insignificance and how much out of control they really are.

Well, sure there's a point in giving them equal opportunities. It's a starting point. If the opportunities do not exist, then even those able to take advantage of said opportunities will not achieve. Doing our best to afford equality of opportunity is where we begin. The fact that we're nowhere close to it obscures the genetic component you're addressing because we can't just assume that everyone not achieving has the genetic limitations that you're discussing.
 
Well, sure there's a point in giving them equal opportunities. It's a starting point. If the opportunities do not exist, then even those able to take advantage of said opportunities will not achieve. Doing our best to afford equality of opportunity is where we begin. The fact that we're nowhere close to it obscures the genetic component you're addressing because we can't just assume that everyone not achieving has the genetic limitations that you're discussing.

Well, you basically underlined one part, so it doesn't seem right in the larger context. What I meant is that equal opportunities may not be enough to reduce disparities because of intrinsic biological disparities and that even after you give people equal opportunities, the ones with traits that give them better a survival advantage in a given environment will have a better chance of using those opportunities and getting ahead.
 
Have seen. It does address some important issues. But they can be overcome as well.

please, do explain.

otherwise you're trading one inequality for another. the people who can't afford the genetic altering will simply be outcasts, a la gattaca.

unless you have some grand way of funding all this for everyone born in the country. and what about immigrants?
 
please, do explain.

otherwise you're trading one inequality for another. the people who can't afford the genetic altering will simply be outcasts, a la gattaca.

unless you have some grand way of funding all this for everyone born in the country. and what about immigrants?

Well, I'm not American, so I don't really want to talk about it from an American's perspective, just from a human perspective.

I didn't really put much thought into the economics of the whole thing. My thoughts were centered around how the lead character with his "inferior" genes outperforms his brother and the rest who have "superior" genes. There are some possible explanations. Perhaps his genetic potential was inaccurately measured in the first place and/or perhaps he got through by putting in a lot of effort in spite of his poor intrinsic make up or perhaps some other factors were involved.

Yes, it might be that by altering genes people will be trading one inequality for another. But such trade-offs happen all the time everywhere in society all over the world. Ideality is hard, if not just impossible, to achieve. But we get closer by making mistakes and learning from them. Nevertheless, people will always put their back into such genetic research for a lot of reasons.
 
Well, I'm not American, so I don't really want to talk about it from an American's perspective, just from a human perspective.

My thoughts were centered around how the lead character with his "inferior" genes outperforms his brother and the rest who have "superior" genes. There are some possible explanations. Perhaps his genetic potential was inaccurately measured in the first place and/or perhaps he got through by putting in a lot of effort in spite of his poor intrinsic make up or perhaps some other factors were involved.

Yes, it might be that by altering genes people will be trading one inequality for another. But such trade-offs happen all the time everywhere in society all over the world. Ideality is hard, if not just impossible, to achieve. But we get closer by making mistakes and learning from them. Nevertheless, people will always put their back into such genetic research for a lot of reasons.

you mean the brother who is relegated to janitorial work because he is genetically inferior, and by the stroke of luck happens to have the opportunity to take the place of a genetically enhanced man who was crippled?

the brother who has to take the fingerprints of the man whom he replaced, in order to fake his identity, and contact lenses to correct his vision because literally everyone else had perfect eyesight?

the brother who can only miss 2 keystrokes before he is determined to be not sufficiently performing?

the brother who couldn't beat his younger sibling at anything except swimming, because he held nothing back?

you mean that brother?

I didn't really put much thought into the economics of the whole thing.

so you haven't considered the thing that the world runs on....brilliant.
 
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