On banks making a killing with overdraft fees

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No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Link

A nasty statistic:

Banks make $38 billion a year from overdraft fees.

Now let's look at the internals on that statistic:

3/4 of all accounts have not had an overdraft in the last 12 months. This means that one quarter of all accounts are responsible for basically all of this.

Of the remaining quarter, half of those account for nearly all (90th percentile plus) of the overdrafts. This means that roughly 12.5% of consumers are bearing the entire brunt of these fees.

70% of the overdrafts happen at a POS terminal or ATM, not by writing a check.

The last statistic is the clear one: There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to take such a hit. The bank knows before they approve the transaction that the money isn't there in the account.

This is not the same thing as a check, which the bank has no way to warn you about before you write it, as there is no "connection" between your checkbook and their computer.

IF we had honest regulators it would be strictly unlawful for a bank to intentionally approve a debit transaction which it knew you did not have the funds to settle unless you had an established overdraft line of credit (at a reasonable APR.)

In fact, it was not all that long ago, in the 1980s and early 1990s, when this was the case: If you went to the ATM and tried to withdraw $100, but didn't HAVE $100, the transaction would be declined.

Every time.

But then the banks came to realize that if they let the transaction go through they could make an unregulated loan for that $100 to you, charging you $30 or more for the privilege - an annualized interest rate of thousands of percent!

This is clearly-predatory behavior. Nobody with half a brain would knowingly sign up for a "service" that would cover a POS or ATM withdrawal at 5,000% interest, yet that is exactly what nearly every bank in the land will currently do by default when you open a new account. They bury the "disclosure" in their terms and conditions, but nowhere do they state these "fees" in equivalent annual percentage rate terms.

It gets better: Banks will intentionally "sort" transactions from a given day to produce the maximum overdraft fee. They sort withdrawals to debit them largest-amount-first, because the fee is assessed per item. An example:

$1,000 in your account.

You write checks for $20, $50, $100, $1,000 and all are presented on the same business day.

How many checks will hit you with an overdraft fee?

THREE - every time. The bank will re-order the transactions so that the $1,000 check is processed first, guaranteeing that the $20, $50 and $100 checks overdraw, thereby generating three overdraft charges. If they processed the transactions "largest item LAST" you'd generate one overdraft fee - on the $1,000 check.

It gets better.

You have $1,000 in your account.

It is after 2:00 PM, the cut-off for a business day.

You go to the mall and use your debit card four times to buy a $5 Latte, $15 lunch, a $40 pair of pants and $25 for a couple of movie tickets.

The next morning a $1,000 check hits your account.

The bank processes the $1,000 check first, even though in terms of actual presentation time the debit card withdrawals were approved first, and whacks you for four overdraft fees instead of the one legitimate fee on the $1,000 check. That Latte just cost you as much as $45!

This sort of predation is responsible for nearly $40 billion dollars a year in pure "profit" for the banks, it is directed specifically at those who have the least in resource to cover it, and it relies on lack of clear disclosure and intentionally-predatory "sorting rules" to get past what would otherwise result in a howl of protest by consumers and lawmakers alike.

This sort of practice should be absolutely outlawed, and if we had anything approaching an honest Congress and Federal Reserve it would have been years ago.

Say thanks to Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and of course BenDover Bernanke when you're bent over the table and repeatedly violated by the banksters as a consequence of this "little" scam.

After all, its only $40 billion dollars.

First, in the past eight years I've only had one overdraft fee, which was kind of only half my fault, and it got reversed.

That said, when it's spelled out as Denninger does, it's hard to see how these are still allowed. I know a smart consumer avoids them--most people reading this post are not hit by them because we are in that category (right? :)), but I've read other numbers on this that there are a great many people in the country who regularly hit a few of these per month at the $39 or whatever it is.

Local banks that we actually have our paychecks with and debit cards make a very substantial portion of their money on overdraft fees, ATM fees, and the like.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Debit cards imo were nothing but a creation for this very fee. I dont know of many places that wont take a credit card. I have never had a debit card for one reason. A merchant fucks up a transaction and you are looking at an over draft and days before the money is put back into your account. My wife got nailed when Sprint somehow charged her debit card 5 times for the same month. It took 2 weeks to get it resolved. In the meantime she had little cash. Also banks often dont work for you on these transactions because it is your money. With a credit card it is their money on the line. Credit Cards also give you a month to find the situation and then 60 days to fix it before any money is actually due. Debit cards are immediate and you find out too late.

 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
If I opened a bank tomorrow that only charged for check overdrafts, and reduced the overdraft charge to about $10, there'd be a stampede of accounts created.

I oppose regulation on this at the government level. I think there's demand here for banks to change, and the first one that does is going to wipe the floor with the competition.

Why can't banks simply say that they won't honor checks or purchases for more money than you have? No NSF charge, no overdraft fee. Simply doesn't happen.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Credit Unions FTW!!! Especially the small personal ones where if you accidently overdraft your account... they are kind enough to remove the fees as long as you put money in the account.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: rudder
Credit Unions FTW!!! Especially the small personal ones where if you accidently overdraft your account... they are kind enough to remove the fees as long as you put money in the account.

What this man sez.
 

lokiju

Lifer
May 29, 2003
18,526
5
0
Banks do lots of shady shit like this.

I just use cash for all in person transactions except gas and it resolves this from ever being an issue.

But reading the article, it's very shitty how the sort from largest to least, there by maximizing the total fee's generated.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: lokiju
Banks do lots of shady shit like this.

I just use cash for all in person transactions except gas and it resolves this from ever being an issue.

But reading the article, it's very shitty how the sort from largest to least, there by maximizing the total fee's generated.
I think some will also deliberately change the order of the income vs outcome so that if you're getting paid on the day some things are going out they may make those go out first.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
It sucks, but if you can't keep track of your money, why would you expect someone else to hold your hand? Heck, when you order checks, you even get a handy dandy checkbook register. If you're overdrawn, then 99% of the time, it's your fault.

Also, the official reason that banks debit your account for the largest amount first, is because the larger amount is most likely more important. For example, would you rather have your rent/alimony check bounce, or your $5 check to the grocery store?

Having worked at a bank, and having processed overdrafts, I can say that there's quite a bit of labor involved with overdrafts. Sure, banks make money off them, but it's not like they wave a magic wand and there's no cost (or risk) involved.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Link

First, in the past eight years I've only had one overdraft fee, which was kind of only half my fault, and it got reversed.

That said, when it's spelled out as Denninger does, it's hard to see how these are still allowed. I know a smart consumer avoids them--most people reading this post are not hit by them because we are in that category (right? :)), but I've read other numbers on this that there are a great many people in the country who regularly hit a few of these per month at the $39 or whatever it is.

Local banks that we actually have our paychecks with and debit cards make a very substantial portion of their money on overdraft fees, ATM fees, and the like.

I've spoken about this for years here calling it the Nefarious use of computers and you guys were all for it.

What has brought about the suddenness against it?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
One overdraft in my life - a rather harsh $20 fee. Asked politely over the phone and had it reversed.

I think the fees are ridiculous, but it's up to the consumer to not end up in that position to begin with. But on the other hand, when you're reduced to living hand-to-mouth you end up in an endless cycle of just barely paying the bills that this sort of punitive fee can only aggravate. Can't bring myself to support any legislation on the matter, though.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: yllus
One overdraft in my life - a rather harsh $20 fee. Asked politely over the phone and had it reversed.

I think the fees are ridiculous, but it's up to the consumer to not end up in that position to begin with. But on the other hand, when you're reduced to living hand-to-mouth you end up in an endless cycle of just barely paying the bills that this sort of punitive fee can only aggravate.

Can't bring myself to support any legislation on the matter, though.

Of course not. How do you benefit from the nefarious programming?
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Originally posted by: tk149
It sucks, but if you can't keep track of your money, why would you expect someone else to hold your hand? Heck, when you order checks, you even get a handy dandy checkbook register. If you're overdrawn, then 99% of the time, it's your fault.

Also, the official reason that banks debit your account for the largest amount first, is because the larger amount is most likely more important. For example, would you rather have your rent/alimony check bounce, or your $5 check to the grocery store?

Having worked at a bank, and having processed overdrafts, I can say that there's quite a bit of labor involved with overdrafts. Sure, banks make money off them, but it's not like they wave a magic wand and there's no cost (or risk) involved.

That would make sense in the old world but in today's world it is utter bullshit. You see, none of these transactions 'bounce' any longer. All of them go through it's just that the consumer gets pounded more frequently with overdraft "we covered it for ya!" fees when they re-sort the transactions based on dollar amount rather than timestamp.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: yllus
One overdraft in my life - a rather harsh $20 fee. Asked politely over the phone and had it reversed.

I think the fees are ridiculous, but it's up to the consumer to not end up in that position to begin with. But on the other hand, when you're reduced to living hand-to-mouth you end up in an endless cycle of just barely paying the bills that this sort of punitive fee can only aggravate.

Can't bring myself to support any legislation on the matter, though.

Of course not. How do you benefit from the nefarious programming?

Child, do you need to be reminded that a moderator has specifically warned you about making baseless accusations against other forum members? Would you like for this to happen? I know how important these forums are to you, we wouldn't want them to be taken from you again.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,822
4,354
136
Originally posted by: tk149
It sucks, but if you can't keep track of your money, why would you expect someone else to hold your hand? Heck, when you order checks, you even get a handy dandy checkbook register. If you're overdrawn, then 99% of the time, it's your fault.

Also, the official reason that banks debit your account for the largest amount first, is because the larger amount is most likely more important. For example, would you rather have your rent/alimony check bounce, or your $5 check to the grocery store?

Having worked at a bank, and having processed overdrafts, I can say that there's quite a bit of labor involved with overdrafts. Sure, banks make money off them, but it's not like they wave a magic wand and there's no cost (or risk) involved.

The only problem with this is nothing actually bounces. They still pay it. But slam you with over draft fees. Its a very weak argument they use to justify this.

In this day and age with internet and computers every transaction should be instintanious and time stamped. There is no rearranging charges at all to benefit either party. Its pure bank bullshit.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
i don't get how banks are able to give a overdraft fee on a Debit card. the transaction NEVER goes through its de3clined at the merchant. Yet they then charge you $20-50 for it WTF.


my wife used have a lot of them. She would try to memmorize the checking account instead fo writing it down or useing Quicken. so every now and then we would get like 5 overdraft fees (they add up fast) and end up wasting like $100 or so. i would get pissed off she would say she won't do it again and 6 months latter...


Finally i made her start useing Quicken and we put in 500 cushion we don't consider part of the account. been a wh ile since she has done it
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
We need to teach kids/adults how to finance and handle money. There is no reason why ghetto people need to spend money on 22" bling blings while they'll pretty much stay poor forever because they can't handle money.

Personal responsibility is non-existent in this country. It's time to put that mentality back into people.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: yllus
One overdraft in my life - a rather harsh $20 fee. Asked politely over the phone and had it reversed.

I think the fees are ridiculous, but it's up to the consumer to not end up in that position to begin with. But on the other hand, when you're reduced to living hand-to-mouth you end up in an endless cycle of just barely paying the bills that this sort of punitive fee can only aggravate.

Can't bring myself to support any legislation on the matter, though.

Of course not. How do you benefit from the nefarious programming?

Child, do you need to be reminded that a moderator has specifically warned you about making baseless accusations against other forum members? Would you like for this to happen? I know how important these forums are to you, we wouldn't want them to be taken from you again.

There is no "accusation" It's only in your pee brain.

You said you can't bring yourself to back legislation against bogus fees.

I am asking you, why? If you actually "think the fees are ridiculous" why do you back them?

By not being for legislation against the ripping off you are happy about for some reason so what gives?

Out with it or scared of mommy?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
We need to teach kids/adults how to finance and handle money. There is no reason why ghetto people need to spend money on 22" bling blings while they'll pretty much stay poor forever because they can't handle money.

Personal responsibility is non-existent in this country. It's time to put that mentality back into people.

Using computer programs to rip people off is responsible?
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
We need to teach kids/adults how to finance and handle money. There is no reason why ghetto people need to spend money on 22" bling blings while they'll pretty much stay poor forever because they can't handle money.

Personal responsibility is non-existent in this country. It's time to put that mentality back into people.

Using computer programs to rip people off is responsible?

How are they using computer programs to rip people off? The fees are published and can be reviewed when you sign up for an account.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

There is no "accusation" It's only in your pee brain.

You said you can't bring yourself to back legislation against bogus fees.

I am asking you, why? If you actually "think the fees are ridiculous" why do you back them?

By not being for legislation against the ripping off you are happy about for some reason so what gives?

Out with it or scared of mommy?

Oh, so anytime we think something is "ridiculous," we should go crying to the government to pass laws to forbid it? Is that what you're saying?

The fees are ridiculous, but you can always shop around and go elsewhere.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
We need to teach kids/adults how to finance and handle money. There is no reason why ghetto people need to spend money on 22" bling blings while they'll pretty much stay poor forever because they can't handle money.

Personal responsibility is non-existent in this country. It's time to put that mentality back into people.

Using computer programs to rip people off is responsible?

You realize it's okay to make both points out of this discussion, right? The overdraw procedure/fees ARE ridiculous but at the same time people should be responsible enough that they never have to face this problem to begin with.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: blanghorst
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

There is no "accusation" It's only in your pee brain.

You said you can't bring yourself to back legislation against bogus fees.

I am asking you, why? If you actually "think the fees are ridiculous" why do you back them?

By not being for legislation against the ripping off you are happy about for some reason so what gives?

Out with it or scared of mommy?

Oh, so anytime we think something is "ridiculous," we should go crying to the government to pass laws to forbid it? Is that what you're saying?

The fees are ridiculous, but you can always shop around and go elsewhere.


great. find me a bank w ithout rediculus fees.

i have looked. my bank is small and it sucks. but at least they don't have some of the stupid fees i have seen. one bank had a "teller" fee. yes you pay to see aperson. Then on top of that they have a "ATM fee" so you get a fee to use the ATM. ok fine just use the computer. Nope you have a $10 month charge to do that.

needless to say i skipped that bank.

 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Here is an idea....

Maybe you should take responsibility for knowing how much is in your bank account and then...DON'T SPEND MORE THAN YOU HAVE.

Oh, then you would have to take responsibility and not shift blame onto someone else like the "big bad corporations".
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
We need to teach kids/adults how to finance and handle money. There is no reason why ghetto people need to spend money on 22" bling blings while they'll pretty much stay poor forever because they can't handle money.

Personal responsibility is non-existent in this country. It's time to put that mentality back into people.

Using computer programs to rip people off is responsible?

You realize it's okay to make both points out of this discussion, right? The overdraw procedure/fees ARE ridiculous but at the same time people should be responsible enough that they never have to face this problem to begin with.

i agree.

but people make mistakes. hell even my grandmother who has more money then she would ever need and is very responsible has bounced a check. shit happens.

but the bank should not game the time of them to make it so you bounce more checks. if you mess up and only have $1001 in the account and you write a$1000 check right before closeing they shouldnt count that check before the 5 $10 ones made early in the day (or weekend)
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Originally posted by: waggy

great. find me a bank w ithout rediculus fees.

i have looked. my bank is small and it sucks. but at least they don't have some of the stupid fees i have seen. one bank had a "teller" fee. yes you pay to see aperson. Then on top of that they have a "ATM fee" so you get a fee to use the ATM. ok fine just use the computer. Nope you have a $10 month charge to do that.

needless to say i skipped that bank.

What about credit unions? Have you checked?

I agree they have stupid fees, but in the case of the overdraft fee, it isn't like you can't avoid being hit by the fee in the first place.