OMG nVidia is going all 3dfx on us :(

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: thorin

Originally posted by: buleyb
Why are you pissed at Nvidia, ATI does it too

And I don't see anything wrong with requiring a board that follows the AGP spec, thats what its there for. The loss of the 1st PCI slot sucks, but I usually don't populate anyway for airflow reasons...

I know ATI does it too, but I thought nVidia would know better after all the bad press 3dfx got for attempting "the brick", and the continued bad press ATi got when they went with the internal pwr connector. As for a baord that follows AGP spec.....wtf r u talking about AGP spec doesn't ever outline use of an external power connector. I agree with the 1st PCI slot not too big of a deal since ppl normally upgrade their GPU fans and cover that slot anyway or put in a slot fan.

Thorin

ATi does what too? Yes, it needs an extra internal power cable, but that's where the comparisons stop. I thought the .13mu aspect of the chip specifically meant that it would not need all this extra power and cooling! Did nVidia go wrong somewhere? Then again, the gamers who shell out $500 for the card don't care because they already have 500W power supplies and water cooling!

Again, I predict that the GeForceFX will be DOA. nVidia is probably already looking towards NV35.

 

[buleyb]

I was under the impression that the .13mu die was what allowed them to make their current power/heat levels. .15mu wouldn't have let them keep the specs they wanted.

Either way, both ATI and nVidia are beyond the standard AGP spec, and require more power. Maybe AGP Pro will become more prominant, but probably not while the graphics card makers keep giving alternatives.

 

[Sunner]

ATi does what too? Yes, it needs an extra internal power cable, but that's where the comparisons stop. I thought the .13mu aspect of the chip specifically meant that it would not need all this extra power and cooling!

There's still the small matter of 500 MHz vs 325 MHz, that's a ~55% increase in clock frequency, a 3.1 GHz .13 P4 with HT disabled would probably draw alot more juice than a 2.0 GHz P4 at .15(if such a thing existed, a 3.1 GHz .13 P4 draws about as much current as a 2.0 GHz P4 at .18 anyway).

 

[Tab]

I dont like the extenal power connecter and that fact that it takes up a PCI Slot. Hopefull Intel's PCI Express will fix our problems in the feature. I personally, think its a bad hit for for Shuttle XPC's.

 

[Mem]

I dont like the extenal power connecter and that fact that it takes up a PCI Slot.

I`m more worried about if it will fit in my Epox 8KHA+ board,I guess I`ll have to wait for feedback, if not then looks like the ATI 9700 will be my next card.

 

[Dufman]

Originally posted by: BentValve
If a guy knew of a better way then I am sure Nvidia would pay him very well for that knowledge.
Nividia has over 100 people on their architecture team, including 3DFX co founder/chief architect Gary Tarolli.
I don't think a single person at Anandtech is even remotely capable of questioning the architecture of any
Nivida or ATI board.

Chalk one up for BentValve

 

[BFG10K]

The power connector thing doesn't bother me at all since ATi has proven that it can be done with a minimal fuss.

The thing that interests me is the 350W power supply minimum and how many motherboards the card won't fit into because they fail to adher to the AGP spec. I think a lot of people who purchased el-cheapo motherboards and el-cheapo brands are going to have issues with them.

 

[sandorski]

Ah yes, once again 3DFX is vindicated as former criticism comes full circle back to those who first spake it. Extra power, huge real estate, and FSAA, whose the schmuck now?

Seriously, the Voodoo 5/6 were omens of the future, one day being upset at a videocards need for a power connector would be like being upset that a hard drive uses a power connector now, who cares? As long as the thing works, pumps out fps in a gratuitous manner, and causes/satisfies gaming addiction are we really going to care or fret over 1 lost power connector or 1(mostly usesless anyway) PCI slot? I'm not.

 

[Whitedog]

I don't give a rats hind end if I have to put in a new 300amp service panel in my house to power a video card.... If it will give me KICK BUTT 3D!.... I WANT IT!

 

[LH]

whose the schmuck now?

3dfx is, still. Nvidia hasnt bought a Mexican plant to manufacture cards. Nvidia hasnt made any stupid mistakes yet, although the choice of waiting for .13 is costly.

 

[buleyb]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
The power connector thing doesn't bother me at all since ATi has proven that it can be done with a minimal fuss.

The thing that interests me is the 350W power supply minimum and how many motherboards the card won't fit into because they fail to adher to the AGP spec. I think a lot of people who purchased el-cheapo motherboards and el-cheapo brands are going to have issues with them.

Who spends $500 on a video card and gets an el-cheapo motherboard? Maybe a crapload of tech support calls to the mobo makers when this doesn't fit will make them start following the standards more closely...

 

[Viper GTS]

Keep in mind that AGP slots have been around for what... 4-5 generations of CPUs? From socket to slot to socket again, the interface constantly evolving to meet the needs of the CPU. K6-2's & 3's drew 20-30W, a P4 3.06 draws over 80W.

AGP hasn't changed much, ATI & NVIDIA are simply doing what is necessary to maintain progress. If the interface doesn't provide enough power, get it from somewhere else.

BFD

As for the PCI slot, it has already been made clear there will be a slightly less extreme version of the GFFX that does not require the additional slot for cooling.

Viper GTS

 

[CZroe]

Originally posted by: LH

whose the schmuck now?

3dfx is, still. Nvidia hasnt bought a Mexican plant to manufacture cards. Nvidia hasnt made any stupid mistakes yet, although the choice of waiting for .13 is costly.

From what I hear, due to the complexity, nVidia WILL be making nv30 PCBs (Or at least controlling their manufacturer from one source) and selling them to 3rd parties. The brand will probably do little more than create value-added software and chose heatsinks and memory chips.

 

[LH]

Nvidia isnt making all the boards themselves. That would prove fatal if they did. They are giving that task to one of the vendors, I believe its MSI, but Im not sure. Nvidia doesnt have the capability to do it, and it would be far to costly if they did it themselves.

 

[bcterps]

Originally posted by: LH

whose the schmuck now?

3dfx is, still. Nvidia hasnt bought a Mexican plant to manufacture cards. Nvidia hasnt made any stupid mistakes yet, although the choice of waiting for .13 is costly.

Actually Nvidia has made some stupid mistakes. They let ATI back into the game, not that I'm complaining, competition is always good. But from Nvidia's standpoint, they made some serious mistakes with the NV30. How late is this card now? ATI is winning more customers everyday... You do have to give ATI props for the work that they've done with the R300, Nvidia opened the door and ATI came blasting through.

 

[CZroe]

I give Art-X the props

and I thought ATI only bought them to get a "Powered by ATI" sticker on the GC to compete with XBOX's "Powered by nVidia"

 

[BFG10K]

Who spends $500 on a video card and gets an el-cheapo motherboard?

You'd be surprised. Look at some requests for help and you'll see a trend of flash video cards like Radeon 9700 Pros being put into crappy motherboards. Sometimes when I see the motherboard I think "My God man, you've payed so much for your video card so why on earth did you skimp on the motherboard and get such a piece of garbage?".

And when I say el-cheapo, it's just a nicer way of saying "crap".

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Who spends $500 on a video card and gets an el-cheapo motherboard?

You'd be surprised. Look at some requests for help and you'll see a trend of flash video cards like Radeon 9700 Pros being put into crappy motherboards. Sometimes when I see the motherboard I think "My God man, you've payed so much for your video card so why on earth did you skimp on the motherboard and get such a piece of garbage?".

And when I say el-cheapo, it's just a nicer way of saying "crap".

Yah same here. Its like when people scratch their heads and wonder why the latest and greatest firebreathing CPU isn't compatible with their budget board or get a great OCing chip just to find out their mobo is BIOS locked.

Chiz

 

[bfonnes]

Originally posted by: buleyb
Why are you pissed at Nvidia, ATI does it too

And I don't see anything wrong with requiring a board that follows the AGP spec, thats what its there for. The loss of the 1st PCI slot sucks, but I usually don't populate anyway for airflow reasons...

agreed. I usually keep my cards in my computer in non-adjacent slots, anyway. Why are you bitching when they are just trying to make faster video? What's wrong with that?

Bfonnes

 

[tomstevens26]

Originally posted by: thorin
Source nvNews.net ? Minimum 350W system power supply *required* ?

Ahh...don't believe the mess about the 350W PSU. A while back I setup a system for a friend running an Athlon TBird 1.4GHz, 512MB DDR2100, 2 7200RPM ATA100 HDs, 1 CDRW, 1 DVD, a couple of USB devices, etc... He later upgraded to a PNY GF4 ti4200 w/ 128MB and I noticed when I was installing it that the video card retail box clearly noted '350W PSU REQUIRED'. It's been running overclocked flawlessly for a while through countless hours of LAN gaming and tons of graphic design and CAD work. He's using a 300W Enlight PSU that has ben through 3 system upgrades. Not a bit of problem whatsoever. It's not so much the output of the PSU as the quality.

Tom

 

[majewski9]

I know all this talk about minimum power supply is garbage. Shoot I ran a 5400 rpm HD, a CD drive, and an Athlon 1.33 ghz all on 120 watt power supply. Now i couldnt run any thing else but that just shows how much that powers.
Shoot I know you couldnt fit a GeforceFX on an ECS K7S5A since my Hercules Radeon 8500 almost hits the nearest ram slot.

I dont think Nvidia has done a very good job with GeforceFX!

1- It uses up two PCI slots
2- Ungodly huge card
3- Ram runs too hot
4- Very expensive!
5- No 256 bit memory
6- high power draw

There better be a huge performance difference between GeforceFX and R300/350 for me to buy!

 

[bfonnes]

Originally posted by: majewski9
I know all this talk about minimum power supply is garbage. Shoot I ran a 5400 rpm HD, a CD drive, and an Athlon 1.33 ghz all on 120 watt power supply. Now i couldnt run any thing else but that just shows how much that powers.
Shoot I know you couldnt fit a GeforceFX on an ECS K7S5A since my Hercules Radeon 8500 almost hits the nearest ram slot.

I dont think Nvidia has done a very good job with GeforceFX!

1- It uses up two PCI slots
2- Ungodly huge card
3- Ram runs too hot
4- Very expensive!
5- No 256 bit memory
6- high power draw

There better be a huge performance difference between GeforceFX and R300/350 for me to buy!

How many of you are going to eat your words when the next killer app comes out for NVidia's cards, or all the things that look like crap on other cards?

 

[jasonsRX7]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Ah yes, once again 3DFX is vindicated as former criticism comes full circle back to those who first spake it. Extra power, huge real estate, and FSAA, whose the schmuck now?

Seriously, the Voodoo 5/6 were omens of the future, one day being upset at a videocards need for a power connector would be like being upset that a hard drive uses a power connector now, who cares? As long as the thing works, pumps out fps in a gratuitous manner, and causes/satisfies gaming addiction are we really going to care or fret over 1 lost power connector or 1(mostly usesless anyway) PCI slot? I'm not.

3dfx was requiring the power brick when their competitors were producing products that performed equally as good or better than the 3dfx cards, and did NOT require the extra power. That was proof that 3dfx's design was not an "omen of the future" but rather a product that was rushed and not refined.

If requiring an external power source on a video card is going to be an industry-wide solution, then so be it. I'll only place blame if all the other manufactures are able to get equal performance without it.

Nvidia, having bought 3dfx after their failure, would not be the schmuck. ATI, having caught up to Nvidia and surpassed them in many areas for the time being, would also not be the schmuck.

 

[human2k]

on-board graphics is good enuf here. Can invest that $500 on my education instead of stupid graphx card to play quake 3 or some dumb FPS really fast.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: majewski9
I know all this talk about minimum power supply is garbage. Shoot I ran a 5400 rpm HD, a CD drive, and an Athlon 1.33 ghz all on 120 watt power supply. Now i couldnt run any thing else but that just shows how much that powers.
Shoot I know you couldnt fit a GeforceFX on an ECS K7S5A since my Hercules Radeon 8500 almost hits the nearest ram slot.

I dont think Nvidia has done a very good job with GeforceFX!

1- It uses up two PCI slots
2- Ungodly huge card
3- Ram runs too hot
4- Very expensive!
5- No 256 bit memory
6- high power draw

There better be a huge performance difference between GeforceFX and R300/350 for me to buy!

1 - You mean 1 AGP and one PCI I assume?
2 - Aside from the cooling system size, which you mentioned above, it isn't that huge.
3 - We'll have to see about that one, I've seen people say it is, and other people say it isn't a problem.
4 - Indeed, but name me one card that's come out a top performer and cheap? Voodoo GFX? Voodoo2? TNT2-Ultra? GeForce? Radeon 9700Pro?
5 - Definately a minus indeed, but nVidia seems convinced they'll be fine without it. The reviews will show who's right.
6 - Yes, that's indeed too bad, and even worse, this seems to be a general trend in the entire industry.