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Olympus launches E-520 DSLR
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I defy you to find that conclusion stated in this thread (especially as in the UK the street price for the Oly is actually higher than for the 450D despite the SRP being reversed - of course the Oly isn't in stock anywhere yet).
On the other hand "The E-520 is also noticeably less capable than the 450D"?
On the other hand "The E-520 is also noticeably less capable than the 450D"?
I have not made a post here for a spell, but thought I might jump in on this one.
It amazes me some of the statements that are made comparing brands, when most of the time the majority of users - of any brand - do not expose properly, do not know enough about PP to make it really work to their advantage, and are so hung up on specs they can't see the forest for the trees.
Sensor size between 4/3 & APSC has been shown to be negligible. Noise between the 10-12 mp sensors in both of these camps can be a toss, depending on how good the exposure is and also the desired noise effect of the manufacturer relative to their design ...i.e. - Oly apparently having a leaning toward emulating film.
To each his own. The evolution of the DSLR has brought out many wanna be photogs brought up in the digital age with the expectation of sterile perfection in their photography. That may very well be atainable, but as for me - no thanks.
There are trade offs in every design. Canon, Oly, and Nikon all make great products. Hopefully more prospective buyers will handle and use the cams prior to buying ..based on a spin in an ad, or the fact that one brand sells more than another. Kinda reminds me of the American way of voting - uninformed!
It amazes me some of the statements that are made comparing brands, when most of the time the majority of users - of any brand - do not expose properly, do not know enough about PP to make it really work to their advantage, and are so hung up on specs they can't see the forest for the trees.
Sensor size between 4/3 & APSC has been shown to be negligible. Noise between the 10-12 mp sensors in both of these camps can be a toss, depending on how good the exposure is and also the desired noise effect of the manufacturer relative to their design ...i.e. - Oly apparently having a leaning toward emulating film.
To each his own. The evolution of the DSLR has brought out many wanna be photogs brought up in the digital age with the expectation of sterile perfection in their photography. That may very well be atainable, but as for me - no thanks.
There are trade offs in every design. Canon, Oly, and Nikon all make great products. Hopefully more prospective buyers will handle and use the cams prior to buying ..based on a spin in an ad, or the fact that one brand sells more than another. Kinda reminds me of the American way of voting - uninformed!
Thank you, your quotes prove that I didn't state that conclusion (inferred, possibly, but I neither stated nor concluded 😉).
I also note that you quoted selectively which may skew meanings - the fuller quote would be " SRP is noticeably cheaper than the Canon 450D (SRP £600 body only) that it's roughly comparable with. "
I've also said in this thread that Canons* are the most discounted & their SRPs a joke [at least here in the UK]) & later gone on to mention that the street prices of both here actually has the Canon as the cheaper.
I said that it was roughly comparable & at least on paper it is.
There is no current evidence to refute that it isn't roughly comparable as there are no full reviews available.
The sensor & AF apparently have improvements from the E-3 development & the specs. for the Oly viewfinder (95% & .92x)are similar to the 450D (95% & .87x).
Whilst you decry the 520 for being a 510 refresh (& it is) you could argue that the Canon was the one catching up to the Oly by adding features that the 510 already had like Live View, spot metering etc. 😉
I very nearly bought an E-510 last year but there was no way that I was buying a 400D (40D possibly).
You on the other hand make definitive statements with no evidence to support them.
"The E-520 is also noticeably less capable than the 450D" - proof?
"It will certainly suffer from the limitations of its predecessor, at least the ones derived from basic physics-- reduced dynamic range, etc." it may do but you have no proof.
As Neos noted certain features (be it physical size, general handling or whatever) will always appeal to certain people more than others - it's definitely not a case of one size fits all.
The fact that they have a different set of priorites/values etc. doesn't make them wrong, merely different.
I do sometimes wonder why it seems that the users of certain camera brands seem less willing than others to believe that just possibly another brand may have something that does something better than theirs ...
* btw I may posssibly be the only one here that has actually worked for Canon.
No, you can't say that definitively atm as we haven't seen what the E520 with it's trickle down improvements from the E3 can do yet.
I've seen photos in a review where an E3 was obviously outperforming in IQ a Nikon D300 used as a comparison which was certainly not what one would expect to see given your arguments about larger sensor/lower noise/more Mp.
http://www.cameralabs.com/revi.../outdoor_results.shtml
I've seen photos in a review where an E3 was obviously outperforming in IQ a Nikon D300 used as a comparison which was certainly not what one would expect to see given your arguments about larger sensor/lower noise/more Mp.
http://www.cameralabs.com/revi.../outdoor_results.shtml
i see some jpegs that have had a considerable amount of sharpening applied compared to jpegs that have had very little sharpening applied.
two 10 mp sensor cameras (which, after cropping the sides to make a 4:3 image, the D300 is) in broad daylight at ISO 100 sensitivity are going to perform quite similarly to each other.
*& I'm not even an Oly user! 😛
I do like to think that I keep an open mind though especially where there is no real evidence either way & I have a pet hate for unsubstantiated claims.
As ElFenix says though pretty much all current DSLRs at their respective levels perform very similarly.
Yes, I'm sure that there will be differences between the Oly & the Canon but I still expect them to be broadly comparable.
The E520 shots that I have seen on forums look pretty good to me & I would suggest acceptable to their target market for that level of body.
It wouldn't surprise me if Pentax DSLR division has been operating in or close to the red either.
Kodak said a while ago that the profits were in the lenses not the bodies & that's why they pulled out of DSLRs as they didn't make them.
Ultimately the companies best placed to profit are probably those like Canon & Sony (& very possibly at some point Samsung esp. if they were to buy Pentax DSLR interests from Hoya) who have the ability to pretty much make everything - electronics, sensors, lenses etc.
Panasonic are a bit of an enigma as they have the electronics/sensor ability but no critical mass of existing users (even though they share the 4/3 system with Oly how many Panasonic bodies are sold?) & of course Nikon are almost the reverse in that they have a large system user base but have to sub out at least sensor manufacture.
It's going to be quite interesting to watch but I'm sort of glad that I'm not involved with it professionally, there will be blood 🙂.
* you mentioned something earlier in this thread "I am sure the pricing is the result of marketing studies by those more knowledgeable by both you and I."
As it happens I have 25 years of sales & marketing experience (incl. as I mentioned Canon) with multinational companies upto director level so I have a pretty good idea of how it works, I've been involved with & set enough UK price lists for firms. 😉
So you hate unsubstantiated claims, but still feel okay claiming that the E-520 is roughly equivalent to the 450D. 😕 Since the 450D is clearly superior to the E-510 in just about everything with the exception of in-body stabilization, you are asking us to accept that the E-520 is greatly improved based on nothing.
The profitability issue is of course separate, and would have actually helped your argument about equivalent value in a minor way. As someone put it in a separate discussion, it's as if Olympus has been selling DSLRs with stacks of greenbacks attached to them.
:roll:
If you look my posts have caveats/are largely conditional/allow for some tolerance whereas yours are posted as if 100% fact (imo there's a big difference between tone of "roughly comparable" & "noticeably less capable").
perfect example - how is it clearly superior in just about everything?
Looking at the specs. side by side they are broadly similar with each winning/losing a few
http://www.dpreview.com/review...0d%2Coly_e510&show=all
Yes, it probably performs better than the E510 but then it probably performs better than it's predecessor the 400D too which is as good an argument as any for supposing that the E520 should also perform better than the E510 that it replaces.
I would bet you $50 that when it comes out the E-520 will be broadly comparable to the 450D but then we would probably argue about the definition of broadly, performance indicators, under which circumstances & whose view to take (e.g. DPReview are very complimentary in their review about the 450D but a major UK photo magazine have been less so).
Loss leaders to get you into something where they can make money by selling you something else is nothing new - supermarkets do it all the time with basic staples & the game console market is largely based on it (sell the hardware at a loss but take a licencing fee from every games sold).
btw, I don't often peruse DPReview's forums but I was browsing there the other day & noticed from a post re. Pentax financial results that Pentax's photo imaging division is struggling too.
Hoya originally stated that they were more interested in the medical imaging side as a complement to their existing business in that field & given that it appears that Pentax plan to exit the P&S market one does wonder how committed they may be to the DSLR business.
There is quite a similarity between the situation with them & Samsung as there was with KM & Sony, I wonder if the outcome will be similar?
If by that you mean "are wild speculation presented as fact", you are accurate.
For just a beginning, the DPReview of the E-510 notes "Dynamic Range less than competition... Serious highlight clipping... Small viewfinder... Visibly noisier results than most competitors above ISO 400... Auto focus provides just three focus points... If it had a better sensor (less noise and better dynamic range) the E-510 would be a strong candidate for category winner... if Olympus is to persuade us that there is no inherent disadvantage to the use of the smaller sensor of the Four-Thirds format, it needs to fix the issues of dynamic range and high ISO performance in future models."
The E-510 is credited with "Good image quality and resolution", whereas DPReview notes concerning the 450D "Superb resolution, good per-pixel sharpness... Good tonal response and dynamic range... noise free images, remain detailed even at high sensitivities... Optional high ISO NR removes all chroma noise... Viewfinder bigger and brighter than predecessors... New features (live view, spot metering, MyMenu, Highlight Tone Priority, 14-bit raw) lift it above the typical 'entry level' and move closer to 40D territory [whereas the E-510 is not even a contender for best in its own class]". The 450D in this test failed AF on five or six frames out of 2000, and is noted to be "a little pricey" at introduction.
A pixel-level image quality comparison with the E-420, keeping in mind that the E-420 has fewer pixels, worse dynamic range etc.:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/page30.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/page32.asp
With DPReview, you've got to actually read their reviews, not compare a few numbers where one can draw the mistaken conclusion that the two cameras are nearly equal. This may be illustrative:
http://tinyurl.com/4a9ksh
That second camera is roughly equivalent to the 450D, even besting it on in-body stabilization and user opinions!
A major camera line is not a supermarket endcap display. I know you don't have experience in major marketing decisions for a camera company, or you would have claimed it already. Olympus's strategy has not worked so far. I don't know the overall health of the company, but they may be forced to sell their cameras at a truer price soon (and note that they don't have the economies of scale of a company like Canon).
No, precisely the opposite although it imo would be a good description of your own posts.
I've read their reviews & others.
DPReview are known to have a Canon bias & also it is known that there is bad blood between them & Olympus.
The E-510 won the EISA ?European Consumer Camera 2007-2008? Award so it can't be all that bad 😉
Imo even the E-510 is broadly equivalent* to the 450D & the E520 will be an improvement on the E-510.
* where imo "broadly equivalent" is within 15% plus or minus.
Unless you are going to extreme pixel peep all the time (& most people don't) as has been mentioned by others in this thread to all intents & purposes all the same level of DSLR will turn out similar pictures.
Even threads re. DPReview's 450D review mention it e.g. http://forums.dpreview.com/for...=1031&message=28034550
"The XSI is a great review for what it covers. In reading it, I have the distinct impression that all the DSLR manufacturers have gotten the image quality to the point where there is no meanginful difference. Whether you get the Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony, or Pentax you're going to get excellent results."
I also note that there are several reports already on DPreview of the 450Ds having focus problems.
You aren't going to like this (& I admit that they are "lite" reviews but all that are available atm from 1 source so hopefully judged according to similar criteria) but http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Olympus-E-520 & http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Canon-EOS-450D actually puts the E-520 ahead overall if you go by their bar graphs ...
True & I have never claimed to but I have worked in sales for 2 & then gone on to senior sales & marketing roles in several other multinational blue chip companies - the precise details (margins etc.) may vary but basic sales & marketing techniques are common across many fields.
Increasingly camera sales are just like supermarket sales especially as the small independent camera stores are forced out by the chains & electrical retailers - DSLRs are even sold by the pallet on some shop floors.
Indeed, at least in the UK, I can buy a DSLR (Canon, Nikon, Pentax or Sony) with my food in 1 supermarket chain.
Sure, under ideal conditions both the Canon and the Oly will be pretty much on par, but the Canon will fare better during a wider range of use.
If you're shooting a scene that has a wide dynamic range, the Canon will do better.
If you're shooting a scene in low light and need DETAIL in your ISO 1600 shots, Canon will be better.
What's sets cameras apart nowadays isn't how well they take photos under good conditions, it's how they take pictures under less than ideal ones.
If you're shooting a scene that has a wide dynamic range, the Canon will do better.
If you're shooting a scene in low light and need DETAIL in your ISO 1600 shots, Canon will be better.
What's sets cameras apart nowadays isn't how well they take photos under good conditions, it's how they take pictures under less than ideal ones.
soydios
Platinum Member
seconded
For example, this is what the breakdown looks like in Lightroom of ISO sensitivities of all the pictures that I've kept with my D50:
ISO 200: 370 (9.8%)
ISO 400: 814 (21.6%)
ISO 800: 1505 (39.8%)
ISO 1600: 1088 (28.8%)
Obviously, I spend a lot of time working at the limits of my equipment in low light. And those numbers are only the pictures that I've kept, and my keeper rate in low available light shooting from a tripod with ball head is usually between 10% and 30%, with longer focal-length lenses (80-200mm f/2.8) producing fewer keepers than shorter ones (35mm f/2.0). My D50 has ~15,750 clicks, and I've kept 3777 of those (24.0%).
It's all about what you need from a DSLR. Here's my picks for several categories:
Smallest Size: Olympus E-420
Small Size: Olympus E-520 or Nikon D60
Entry Midsize: Canon 450D or Sony A350 or Pentax K200D
Prosumer Midsize: Canon 40D or Nikon D90?
Pro Midsize: Nikon D300
Pro Midsize Full-Frame: Nikon D10? or Canon 5DmkII?
Best Image Quality (studio and landscape): Canon 1DsmkIII
Wildlife: Nikon D300
Sports: Nikon D3 or Canon 1DmkIII
Available Darkness: Nikon D3
Cheap Sports: Nikon D2H or Canon 1DmkII
Cheap Entry: Nikon D50 or Canon 350D
So, if I wasn't shooting so much low-light, but I wanted the better image quality and responsiveness of a DSLR, just in a small package, then I would be looking at Olympus' E-420/520 or the Nikon D60.
actually the E-520 is larger than the eos 350/400/450.
and if you use 14 bit the 40D is better for wildlife than the D300 (which slows to a crawl using 14 bit, the 450D is faster, in fact). not to mention the 40D's better autofocus (more points isn't better when there isn't enough processing power to handle them).
oh, i said it.
😀
(hey nikon, where is the D3 in an F6 body!)
Sure, DPReview has a Canon bias-- so say Nikon fans, very often. Canon fans claim it has a Nikon bias, etc. There is no bias.
You managed to find an Internet discussion-board post supporting your ideas. :shocked: You can find anything you like somewhere on the Internet. Flat Earth Society, anyone?
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