Old Bently's?

[mattpegher]

I passed by the bently dealer the other day and saw about a dozen vehicles and began to wonder. What ever happens to the old one, say 10year old vehicle, I have never seen an old bentley or rolls for sale except as collectors auctions. There must be some old ones that could be sold as used. But you never see them. I wonder if the company does something with trade-ins.

 

[herm0016]

http://autos.yahoo.com/used-cars/bentley-overview ??

hmm.. not that expensive either

probably have to go the the higher end dealers to get the used ones, but they are out there.

 

[mwmorph]

You dont see them because of how rare they are in the first place, just like you dont see many Lambo Countach or Diablos.

They lose value fairly quickly, are expensive to keep on the road, require a lot of repairs and a 10 year old bentley may cost only as much as a 1 year old S550 or 750i but won't have the tech, toys, safety, features or warranty of a much newer, nicer driving car.

Also being such a niche brand, they go many years between model updates. A 2009 Arnage looks pretty much like a 1998 Arnage so you wouldn't be able to tell driving down the road that the Arnage next to you is 11 years old.

In the world of cars, especially interior design, which these super luxo-cruisers are famed for, 10 years is a lifetime. The 1999 Arnage mught still be a $50k car, but the interior is missing just about everything you'd expect in a 50K car like nav, satellite radio, stability control, modern ergonomics etc. IMO old luxo cruisers are impressive in badge only, there's really no reason to buy one unless you have some nostaligic or badge obsession.

 

[MrMatt]

Holy Crap!!! I would LOVE to fix that up


18 grand?? Seriously I love the look of these vintage cars...would LOVE to get one. That one only has 24,000 miles on it.

 

[Black88GTA]

As the disparity between initial purchase costs and required maintenance / upkeep widens, the car loses potential buyers. Regardless of the price on the used market, cars that cost upwards of $100k when new still carry the same maintenance costs as they did back then - even more so, as the miles build up and large repairs start to become more and more frequent.

In other words, people with the means to maintain a ~20 year old Bentley will buy something far newer / nicer / more prestigious than a 20 year old Bentley. Wise people who know that they cannot afford the maintenance will pass on the car in the first place. People who know that they cannot afford the maintenance but talk themselves into it anyway, or simply don't know what they are getting themselves into, will buy it, drive it until something relatively large breaks, and then take it off the road because they can't afford to fix it.

Unfortunately, this class of car is pretty much only driven and maintained by deep pocketed enthusiasts or well off people with some sort of attachment to the cars.

 

[JulesMaximus]

They cost a small fortune to keep in good working order. You can find them used with low mileage but they will cost you a ton to keep them running and if you drive it it regularly it will cost you even more. I used to rent cars to a woman who owned a Rolls Royce sedan and it seemed like every time she took it in for repairs it cost her $5,000.

They are ridiculously expensive to repair.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

I saw a rolls on ebay with a buy it now price of $5k. As Jules noted, that's also the average bail to get it back from the repair shop

 

[The Boston Dangler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXjAbzQAnM

 

[punjabiplaya]

You'll have to see James May explain how good old bentely's are. Top Gear 2x01 I believe. I can't seem to find a link. Basically he says each service costs as much as 7 series but has to be done 3 times as often. And on and on and on.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: punjabiplaya
You'll have to see James May explain how good old bentely's are. Top Gear 2x01 I believe. I can't seem to find a link. Basically he says each service costs as much as 7 series but has to be done 3 times as often. And on and on and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTtGXe1QimA

 

[NAC]

I had the impression that a lot of the older Bentleys & Rollses had GM sourced drive trains, but with some customizations. At least from say the 80s & 90s. Fixing repairs back to original spec would no doubt cost an arm and a leg - especially at the dealer. However I'd think you could fix any drive train problems back to good as new, but different spec fairly cheaply.

So if the engine is damaged - replace it with a rebuilt (or new) GM 350 for cheap. Similar for transmission and differential.

Interior items - say the power window switch - all bets are off. I still thought those were off largely the shelf mechanicals, but perhaps with a different chrome fixtures/ covers/ whatever.

And bets are of course off for body parts/ glass /etc. Probably the same for the suspension.

To maintain interior items and body items - best bet would be to find a donor car at a junkyard.

So in summary, I'd think you could keep a car running but not to original spec fairly easily and cheaply. But you'll need to pay $$$ and/or be creative and work to keep the car nice inside and out.


[edited for spelling]

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: NAC
I had the impression that a lot of the older Bentleys & Rollses had GM sourced drive trains, but with some customizations. At least from say the 80s & 90s. Fixing repairs back to original spec would no doubt cost an arm and a leg - especially at the dealer. However I'd think you could fix any drive train problems back to good as new, but different spec fairly cheaply.

So if the engine is damaged - replace it with a rebuilt (or new) GM 350 for cheap. Similar for transmission and differential.

Interior items - say the power window switch - all bets are off. I still thought those were off largely the shelf mechanicals, but perhaps with a different chrome fixtures/ covers/ whatever.

And bets are of course off for body parts/ glass /etc. Probably the same for the suspension.

To maintain interior items and body items - best bet would be to find a donor car at a junkyard.

So in summary, I'd think you could keep a car running but not to original spec fairly easily and cheaply. But you'll need to pay $$$ and/or be creative and work to keep the car nice inside and out.


[edited for spelling]

The V8 you're thinking of is the Rover V8, which is based off a Buick design.

The 6.75L V8 Bently has been using since 1970 is the Roll Royce V8. Bentley has never put a Rover V8 in any of its cars.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
The V8 you're thinking of is the Rover V8, which is based off a Buick design.

The 6.75L V8 Bently has been using since 1970 is the Roll Royce V8. Bentley has never put a Rover V8 in any of its cars.

I think he was referring to the 4L80e transmission that found it's way into many vehicles. Including Bentleys from 1991-2002.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: mwmorph
The V8 you're thinking of is the Rover V8, which is based off a Buick design.

The 6.75L V8 Bently has been using since 1970 is the Roll Royce V8. Bentley has never put a Rover V8 in any of its cars.

I think he was referring to the 4L80e transmission that found it's way into many vehicles. Including Bentleys from 1991-2002.

Yup. IIRC even the older three-speed transmissions in Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars were GM THM400 units.

ZV

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Yup. IIRC even the older three-speed transmissions in Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars were GM THM400 units.

ZV

Other non-GM firms have used the THM400 and its 4L80E successor, including Ferrari (in the 400/412), Jeep (usually found in the FSJ pickups and [[Jeep Wagoneer|SUVs] on early models an adapter between the engine and transmission bell housing. Later models had an AMC specific housing. Though identical except for the bell housing pattern. used through the 60's and ending in 1979 the THM400 was masted to the Dana model 18,20 and was the only transmission used with the Borg and Warner 1305/1339 all wheel drive transfercase used only in jeeps]), Jaguar (found in their pre-1997 XJ12 and XJ-S coupes), Rolls-Royce (1965?1980 Silver Shadow and 1980-1992 Silver Spirit series cars, along with their Bentley stablemates), and AM General. It has been known to adapt a THM400 to other engines via the use of adapter plates. During the 1970s, there were more BOP (Buick/Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Cadillac) transmission cores produced for the THM-400, making other transmission cases a rare find. No THM400 was produced with multicase bell housings.

GM transmissions are the gigolos of the automotive world, they found their way into everything.

 

[Arkaign]

About the only ways I could recommend one of those types (old Exotic or rare luxury car), would be if you're just going to polish it, slowly bring it to full restoration, and maybe drive it ~100 miles yearly ... or ....

Have the $cratch ready to do a full drivetrain/electronics swap. It would also help to research the supporting parts and see if alternatives are available. Things like suspension parts, tie rods, brake lines, etc .. you may have to do some creative engineering to replace parts that aren't readily available, but doing good work to accommodate parts that ARE readily and cheaply available will help a lot.

Of course, doing all that destroys everything but the cosmetic heritage of the vehicle, but if you're going to want to DD it or constantly use it, it makes a lot more sense than spending a tremendous amount of $$ constantly to keep a fussy unreliable car going. I can only imagine the costs involved in keeping say a Ferrari 308, Bentley GT, or Countach on the road for ~20k yearly miles.

 

[StageLeft]

AFAIK bentleys/RR are pretty much crap even when new; they require a lot of trips to the dealer for silly little repairs here and there. Shame considering their cost. A used one, forget it. There are many ferraris used for $20k but you'll never be driving it unless you throw money endlessly at it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
I can only imagine the costs involved in keeping say a Ferrari 308

Actually, my local mechanics have told me several times that a 308 would be cheaper to keep running than my 951. Apparently they aren't terrible cars to keep running. Of course, they are also slower than my 951 by a rather significant margin.

Running 15 PSI of positive manifold pressure has both drawbacks (in reliability) and advantages (in speed).

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkaign
I can only imagine the costs involved in keeping say a Ferrari 308

Actually, my local mechanics have told me several times that a 308 would be cheaper to keep running than my 951. Apparently they aren't terrible cars to keep running. Of course, they are also slower than my 951 by a rather significant margin.

Running 15 PSI of positive manifold pressure has both drawbacks (in reliability) and advantages (in speed).

ZV

I wonder why that would be?

http://www.edmunds.com/insidel...gTerm/articleId=121288

That was a pretty low-miles 308, but it was pretty fussy. Maybe they're better when they've been brought up to speed.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkaign
I can only imagine the costs involved in keeping say a Ferrari 308

Actually, my local mechanics have told me several times that a 308 would be cheaper to keep running than my 951. Apparently they aren't terrible cars to keep running. Of course, they are also slower than my 951 by a rather significant margin.

Running 15 PSI of positive manifold pressure has both drawbacks (in reliability) and advantages (in speed).

ZV

I wonder why that would be?

http://www.edmunds.com/insidel...gTerm/articleId=121288

That was a pretty low-miles 308, but it was pretty fussy. Maybe they're better when they've been brought up to speed.

That's about what my 951 ran me during its first year.

In 4 years of ownership, I've spent well over $11,000 in maintenance/repairs with about $10,000 of that coming in the first two years. Can't give exact numbers right now since the binder is at home and I'm at the client site for the next two weeks, but $4,800/year in maintenance and repairs doesn't seem unreasonable for a 23 year old sportscar.

Also, I will add the caveat that the mechanics who recommended the 308 specifically recommended the carbureted version, not the EFI models because they are apparently much easier to service.

To be fair as well, no Porsche of any sort has ever left me stranded due to a Porsche part failing. The only time I've ever had to tow a Porsche was when an oil filter o-ring failed and just cranking the car to start it pumped about half my oil onto my garage floor.

Interestingly, the driver's side mirror on my 951 fell off just like the one on the Edmunds 308 did. It was similarly simple to bolt back on. Currently, the odometer has stopped working again, so I need to pull the dash apart and find out why; if I'm lucky I'll only need a circlip. If I'm not, I'll need to replace one of the drive gears again. The joys of old cars.

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

Heheh, that's a bonus, if the car is so fun/interesting that you don't mind chasing down problems and installing new parts. How boring would it be if the old thing was as reliable as the rain in Hawaii?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Heheh, that's a bonus, if the car is so fun/interesting that you don't mind chasing down problems and installing new parts. How boring would it be if the old thing was as reliable as the rain in Hawaii?

Well, it would be nice to be able to concentrate on re-covering the seats (with 160,000+ miles, the driver's seat leather is cracked and worn) or on repairing 23 years' worth of door dings. I need to go to a custom shop and see what the cost is for upholstering the seats. The sites I've found have it running $1,100 per seat for new leather, so it's decidedly a back-burner project.

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Heheh, that's a bonus, if the car is so fun/interesting that you don't mind chasing down problems and installing new parts. How boring would it be if the old thing was as reliable as the rain in Hawaii?

Well, it would be nice to be able to concentrate on re-covering the seats (with 160,000+ miles, the driver's seat leather is cracked and worn) or on repairing 23 years' worth of door dings. I need to go to a custom shop and see what the cost is for upholstering the seats. The sites I've found have it running $1,100 per seat for new leather, so it's decidedly a back-burner project.

ZV

Any chance of coming up with an alternative fitment for the seats? I would imagine that you could easily fit some nice 3rd-party seats if you were able to remove the carpet and do some cutting/welding for mounting support. Given how far things have come in over two decades, I'd bet it would be a nice upgrade, though no longer stock of course.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Heheh, that's a bonus, if the car is so fun/interesting that you don't mind chasing down problems and installing new parts. How boring would it be if the old thing was as reliable as the rain in Hawaii?

Well, it would be nice to be able to concentrate on re-covering the seats (with 160,000+ miles, the driver's seat leather is cracked and worn) or on repairing 23 years' worth of door dings. I need to go to a custom shop and see what the cost is for upholstering the seats. The sites I've found have it running $1,100 per seat for new leather, so it's decidedly a back-burner project.

ZV

Any chance of coming up with an alternative fitment for the seats? I would imagine that you could easily fit some nice 3rd-party seats if you were able to remove the carpet and do some cutting/welding for mounting support. Given how far things have come in over two decades, I'd bet it would be a nice upgrade, though no longer stock of course.

Short of going with full race seats, I'm not going to find anything with the level of support that the factory sport seats have and I doubt that race seats would be as comfortable. I think I'll call a few places tonight and see what the "custom" shops can do. It seems that the pre-made replacement leather is all imported from Germany so maybe I can save some money by getting a local product. Assuming they can dye it right.

ZV

 

[Arkaign]

Very cool. Well update us with pics when things move along in that area, would be cool to watch the progress.