OLC Authorized Pentagon to Ignore Bill of Rights On U.S. Soil

vhx

Golden Member
Jul 19, 2006
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http://washingtonindependent.c...s-citizens-is-absolute

In an October 2001 memo released today on Monday, then-Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Counsel John Yoo advised the Pentagon?s top lawyer that the president may not only deploy the military within the United States, but it may ignore the Bill of Rights in the process of doing so. Yoo and special counsel Robert Delahunty wrote to Defense Department general counsel William Haynes that the president has ?ample constitutional and statutory authority to deploy the military against international or foreign terrorists operating within the United States,? and that the use of military force ?need not follow the exact procedures that govern law enforcement operations.?

Although the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures on U.S. soil, Yoo concluded that ?[a]lthough the situation is novel ? we think that the better view is that the Fourth Amendment would not apply in these circumstances. Thus, for example, we do not think that a military commander carrying out a raid on a terrorist cell would be required to demonstrate probably cause or to obtain a warrant.?

This memo appears to have formed the legal basis for the Bush administration?s domestic warrantless wiretapping program, which at least one federal judge has since concluded was unconstitutional.

Jameel Jaffer, Director of the ACLU National Security Project, reads it as extending beyond the Fourth Amendment, however.

?This takes the position that the Bill of Rights does not constrain the military in its operations inside the United States,? Jaffer told me this afternoon. ?The president can disregard the constitution during wartime, not just on foreign battlefields, but inside the United States. We had not seen a memo saying that before.?

Of the nine memos released today, at least two ? this October one written by Yoo, and another written by Bybee regarding extraordinary rendition ? were responsive to earlier ACLU requests for OLC memos in the context of ongoing FOIA cases.

But many more memos the ACLU has requested still have not been released.

?There are still dozens of memos being withheld,? said Jaffer. ?We?re hoping that this is a first installment.?

While the memos reveal the legal groundwork that was laid for the Bush administration?s conduct in its ?war on terror?, much of which appears to have been illegal, they still don?t answer the critical question that many Bush critics want to know.

?The obvious question that?s raised by these memos is, what conduct did the administration authorize on the basis of the legal reasoning in these memos?? Jaffer said. ?That?s a question that has not been adequately answered.?

Update: After further reading of this memo, I have to update it with some more astounding quotes from John Yoo, who insists that not only the Fourth Amendment, but the First Amendment right to free speech may be overridden by the President in wartime:

?First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully,? writes Yoo. Yoo then reaches back to a 1931 Supreme Court case to support this idea, which said that ??When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.? . . . No one would question but that a government might prevent actual obstruction to its recruiting service or the publication of the sailing dates of transports or the number and location of troops.?

Now, no one today would argue that an American has a right to publish secret details about U.S. troop movements in Iraq, either; but the First Amendment already accounts for those sorts of exigencies. For John Yoo to take from that that the President may actually override free speech and press rights that are guaranteed by the First Amendment goes beyond stretching it ? it?s just a blatant, and deliberate, misreading of the law. After all, John Yoo ? Harvard and Yale grad, Berkeley Law prof ? is no dummy.
I guess these are memos to the Pentagon from 2001 released recently. Although this is nice in that it helps us catch those pesky 'terrorists', I hope there is someone with me in thinking this sets a bad precedent. Kind of scary when this stuff is coming from our Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel. Seems like they get to bend the law to whatever they want it to be when it suits them. What use is the law, constitution, and Bill of Rights if they can always make exceptions whenever they want? All of that sounds awfully close to what I'd expect in a dictatorship IMO....

Apparently there are more memos to come.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
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October 2001 was just one month after September 11th, 2001. A war was brought to our doorstep. When was the last time we had enemy combatants on our soil? War of 1812? The mexican American war? World war 2? It has been a while. This is mainly a what if scenario. As in what if these attacks on American soil continue from American soil continue... can we use the military?

How many of the 9/11 terrorists were U.S. citizens?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Isn't there already a thread on this stuff?

Also - just because it's an opinion memo doesn't mean it was actually accepted as policy or used.

Or that it wasn't.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Scary to think that these nutjobs built the foundation for administration policies. Talk about winning the battle, losing the war, they are essentially saying "toss out everything this country is built on if it helps in the effort to fight terrorism".

Thank goodness these creeps are gone, hopefully some of them will get prosecuted for their treachery.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Sounds reasonable. Many Presidents have done what is necessary to lead us to victory.

You are a despicable asshole, winnar, the garbage that justifies ovens for Jews because it's good for German National Unity.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: winnar111
Sounds reasonable. Many Presidents have done what is necessary to lead us to victory.

You are a despicable asshole, winnar, the garbage that justifies ovens for Jews because it's good for German National Unity.

Is this all you can do; insult other people? You do that regularly, yesterday calling me an idiot simply because I have different standards/opinion than you.

Abraham Lincoln did far, far more than Bush or any other President has done in curtailing civil liberties and constitutional guarantees. He did so to preserve the Union. FDR interned hundreds of thousands of Japanese-American citizens for no other reason than they might be a threat. I recognize both as great Presidents, yet here you are disparaging anyone who is trying to have a reasonable discourse over a set of memo's that were what-ifs.

I said it before, it simply shows the utter bankruptcy of your position that you can do nothing but label and insult those with whom you disagree and that only your position is the correct one. My 19 year old daughter has the same attitude. Maybe when you and her grow up and learn to respect others opinions we can have a reasonable debate.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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You're suprised? Once Moonbeam had an entire thread that he dedicated to insulting others whose opinion differed.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,644
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Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: winnar111
Sounds reasonable. Many Presidents have done what is necessary to lead us to victory.

You are a despicable asshole, winnar, the garbage that justifies ovens for Jews because it's good for German National Unity.

Is this all you can do; insult other people? You do that regularly, yesterday calling me an idiot simply because I have different standards/opinion than you.

Abraham Lincoln did far, far more than Bush or any other President has done in curtailing civil liberties and constitutional guarantees. He did so to preserve the Union. FDR interned hundreds of thousands of Japanese-American citizens for no other reason than they might be a threat. I recognize both as great Presidents, yet here you are disparaging anyone who is trying to have a reasonable discourse over a set of memo's that were what-ifs.

I said it before, it simply shows the utter bankruptcy of your position that you can do nothing but label and insult those with whom you disagree and that only your position is the correct one. My 19 year old daughter has the same attitude. Maybe when you and her grow up and learn to respect others opinions we can have a reasonable debate.

Thank you dphantom, though I think you'll find that they do not come here to debate anything. The most basic function of P&N is, like our political system, to attack the other side. That is how Bush can be demonized while history is ignored.

If anyone wants to discuss the meat of what Bush did wrong, I'd begin with the Patriot Act. Of course, when discussing that we'd have to mention Congress and that the Democrats voted for such abuse of the Bill of Rights alongside the Republicans. I find that in cases of government abuse of power, Democrats and Republicans have no problem working together.

In fact, that's the defining definition of bipartisanship these days, whatever is good for expanding their power. Other than that, what you witness in politics is a nonviolent civil war between left and right. Being bankrupt and attacking people still acceptable, as it scores points with the base.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: winnar111
Sounds reasonable. Many Presidents have done what is necessary to lead us to victory.

You are a despicable asshole, winnar, the garbage that justifies ovens for Jews because it's good for German National Unity.

Is this all you can do; insult other people? You do that regularly, yesterday calling me an idiot simply because I have different standards/opinion than you.

Abraham Lincoln did far, far more than Bush or any other President has done in curtailing civil liberties and constitutional guarantees. He did so to preserve the Union. FDR interned hundreds of thousands of Japanese-American citizens for no other reason than they might be a threat. I recognize both as great Presidents, yet here you are disparaging anyone who is trying to have a reasonable discourse over a set of memo's that were what-ifs.

I said it before, it simply shows the utter bankruptcy of your position that you can do nothing but label and insult those with whom you disagree and that only your position is the correct one. My 19 year old daughter has the same attitude. Maybe when you and her grow up and learn to respect others opinions we can have a reasonable debate.

I called you an idiot because you said I said exactly the opposite of what I said. You don't know how to read.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
You're suprised? Once Moonbeam had an entire thread that he dedicated to insulting others whose opinion differed.

Not hardly. I stated a valid premise that led to an ineluctable conclusion showing how only fools could argue otherwise and lots and lots of fools tried to. I merely pointed out their inability to deal with logic and reason. I demonstrated the difference between logical argument and opinion. I simply demonstrated that folks are fools. It's not my fault some are insulted by that. After all, if you are shown facts and ignore them in your opinion, it is you who turns yourself into a fool, not me identifying you as such.

And, of course, the purpose wasn't some joy I get in calling people fools, but to help them see they are and why, so change becomes possible. People are in a state of paralysis because they are in a state of denial.

You probably get joy from calling others fools so you assume that's what motivates me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: winnar111
Sounds reasonable. Many Presidents have done what is necessary to lead us to victory.

You are a despicable asshole, winnar, the garbage that justifies ovens for Jews because it's good for German National Unity.

Is this all you can do; insult other people? You do that regularly, yesterday calling me an idiot simply because I have different standards/opinion than you.

Abraham Lincoln did far, far more than Bush or any other President has done in curtailing civil liberties and constitutional guarantees. He did so to preserve the Union. FDR interned hundreds of thousands of Japanese-American citizens for no other reason than they might be a threat. I recognize both as great Presidents, yet here you are disparaging anyone who is trying to have a reasonable discourse over a set of memo's that were what-ifs.

I said it before, it simply shows the utter bankruptcy of your position that you can do nothing but label and insult those with whom you disagree and that only your position is the correct one. My 19 year old daughter has the same attitude. Maybe when you and her grow up and learn to respect others opinions we can have a reasonable debate.

Thank you dphantom, though I think you'll find that they do not come here to debate anything. The most basic function of P&N is, like our political system, to attack the other side. That is how Bush can be demonized while history is ignored.

If anyone wants to discuss the meat of what Bush did wrong, I'd begin with the Patriot Act. Of course, when discussing that we'd have to mention Congress and that the Democrats voted for such abuse of the Bill of Rights alongside the Republicans. I find that in cases of government abuse of power, Democrats and Republicans have no problem working together.

In fact, that's the defining definition of bipartisanship these days, whatever is good for expanding their power. Other than that, what you witness in politics is a nonviolent civil war between left and right. Being bankrupt and attacking people still acceptable, as it scores points with the base.

This is a robotic, partisan, common alternate view of reality, no different than what you criticize. You are pointing fingers at yourself. YOU think YOU know something but it is a programmed belief. You have what is called a bent.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Are these memos grounds for implementing policy?

Anyone know the answer to that?

My gut is telling me yes, because policy would not be enacted without the legal grounds to do so.

If (heaven forbid) the US military was unleashed on Americans and on American soil...these legal "opinions" would have served as the justification for doing so (And removing our rights per the Bill of Rights while doing it.) Bank on it.

The biggest question. The one that hasn't been answered yet:

Jaffer - What conduct did the administration authorize on the basis of the legal reasoning in these memos?

I will be interested to see if that answer is ever uncovered. I can think of one possible thing that happened as a result of these legal opinions....illegal wiretapping comes to mind.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
You are correct, ObByte. Except to support (or bar) policy there is no reason to write these memos. Remember the presidential oath is to defend and uphold the Constitution.

John Yoo is a discredit to Yale Law School, his alma matter. Heck, he is a discredit to a basic high school civics class. There may come a time when it is necessary to ignore the Constitution (remember Lincoln suspended habeus corpus) but these "opinions" are pure legal nonsense.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: OrByte
Are these memos grounds for implementing policy?

Anyone know the answer to that?

My gut is telling me yes, because policy would not be enacted without the legal grounds to do so.

If (heaven forbid) the US military was unleashed on Americans and on American soil...these legal "opinions" would have served as the justification for doing so (And removing our rights per the Bill of Rights while doing it.) Bank on it.

The biggest question. The one that hasn't been answered yet:

Jaffer - What conduct did the administration authorize on the basis of the legal reasoning in these memos?

I will be interested to see if that answer is ever uncovered. I can think of one possible thing that happened as a result of these legal opinions....illegal wiretapping comes to mind.

My understanding, not much of one of course, is that there is no necessary connection. I believe no connection has yet been established but they are looking for one. One should have a care in ascribing blame that one's natural suspicions aren't confused with proof.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: OrByte
Are these memos grounds for implementing policy?

Anyone know the answer to that?

My gut is telling me yes, because policy would not be enacted without the legal grounds to do so.

If (heaven forbid) the US military was unleashed on Americans and on American soil...these legal "opinions" would have served as the justification for doing so (And removing our rights per the Bill of Rights while doing it.) Bank on it.

The biggest question. The one that hasn't been answered yet:

Jaffer - What conduct did the administration authorize on the basis of the legal reasoning in these memos?

I will be interested to see if that answer is ever uncovered. I can think of one possible thing that happened as a result of these legal opinions....illegal wiretapping comes to mind.

My understanding, not much of one of course, is that there is no necessary connection. I believe no connection has yet been established but they are looking for one. One should have a care in ascribing blame that one's natural suspicions aren't confused with proof.
Understood, I just hope they keep looking.

 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
3,042
0
0
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: OrByte
Are these memos grounds for implementing policy?

Anyone know the answer to that?

My gut is telling me yes, because policy would not be enacted without the legal grounds to do so.

If (heaven forbid) the US military was unleashed on Americans and on American soil...these legal "opinions" would have served as the justification for doing so (And removing our rights per the Bill of Rights while doing it.) Bank on it.

The biggest question. The one that hasn't been answered yet:

Jaffer - What conduct did the administration authorize on the basis of the legal reasoning in these memos?

I will be interested to see if that answer is ever uncovered. I can think of one possible thing that happened as a result of these legal opinions....illegal wiretapping comes to mind.

My understanding, not much of one of course, is that there is no necessary connection. I believe no connection has yet been established but they are looking for one. One should have a care in ascribing blame that one's natural suspicions aren't confused with proof.
Understood, I just hope they keep looking.

Why not form a Blue Ribbon Commission?

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Obama has expressed some willingness to do so but that his natural focus is to move forward not look back. I am of the opinion, however, that a lack of consequence for past evil is a guarantee for future evil and that looking back IS looking forward.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
3,042
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Obama has expressed some willingness to do so but that his natural focus is to move forward not look back. I am of the opinion, however, that a lack of consequence for past evil is a guarantee for future evil and that looking back IS looking forward.

"The truth shall set us free."

 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: alchemizehttp://forums.anandtech.com/messagepost.aspx?postaction=reply&catid=52&threadid=2282825&messid=30610945&STARTPAGE=1&ezquote=y&parentid=30610945
You're suprised? Once Moonbeam had an entire thread that he dedicated to insulting others whose opinion differed.

No, I am not. :)

But I won't back down either. I am a conservative, both fiscal and social and will defend those positions. And I hope I am never in the position of having to denigrate someone else in a debate simply because they have a different view and I have no other answer to their proposition.

Thank you to you and Jaskalas.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: alchemizehttp://forums.anandtech.com/messagepost.aspx?postaction=reply&catid=52&threadid=2282825&messid=30610945&STARTPAGE=1&ezquote=y&parentid=30610945
You're suprised? Once Moonbeam had an entire thread that he dedicated to insulting others whose opinion differed.

No, I am not. :)

But I won't back down either. I am a conservative, both fiscal and social and will defend those positions. And I hope I am never in the position of having to denigrate someone else in a debate simply because they have a different view and I have no other answer to their proposition.

Thank you to you and Jaskalas.

You don't have to back down. It was clear to anybody who can read that you mis-characterized my position. You are free to pig headedly and stupidly maintain you did not. Nothing I criticized you for had anything to do with any position you took. You factually accused me of saying something entirely different than what I said and what I actually said was perfectly clear and obvious. Your problem was neither your conservatism nor your fiscal or social beliefs, but your inability to comprehend what I said and reply to that. Now you have created some delusion some position you hold is under attack. You're probably a Christian.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,749
6,319
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I'm not sure how a Terrorist Cell in the US could require a Military response. The FBI and many other Police forces are capable of taking on significant firepower.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
I sure am glad that I decided way back when I could start thinking for myself that I would ignore the governments orders to protect MY self and MY interests.

"Bring it on!" Amirite?
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Another bastardization and distortion of what is contained in the memo.

Using the military within the US for a very specific purpose (which does have historical and legal precedent) turns into ?The president can disregard the constitution during wartime, not just on foreign battlefields, but inside the United States. We had not seen a memo saying that before.?

Will the lefties never tire of of distorting and misrepresenting issues in order to spread FUD?