• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

okay... what the hell is this... law enforcement has gone too far.

xyyz

Diamond Member

It seems, to me anyways, that the police failed to do their job and are now blaming someone else for these deaths.

ABC News link

DUI Manslaughter
? By Proxy
N.J. Man Faces Manslaughter in
DUI Crash ? But He Wasn?t in Car

By Bryan Robinson

Jan. 17 ? Friends don't let friends drive drunk ? or else they just might be charged with killing someone.

That is what has happened to Kenneth Powell, who is facing charges of manslaughter and other charges in the July 2000 death of New Jersey Navy Ensign John Elliott in a drunken driving accident.
Powell, 40, was not directly involved in the accident ? he wasn't behind the wheel, wasn't a passenger in either of the vehicles involved, and was not charged with drunken driving.

But his friend Michael Pangle was. Hours before the fatal accident, Pangle had been arrested for driving while intoxicated and had a .21 blood-alcohol level ? more than twice the legal limit in New Jersey.

Powell's troubles began when New Jersey State Police called him to pick up Pangle. He drove Pangle back to Pangle's car ? and that was the last time he saw him alive.

Shortly afterward, Pangle, still intoxicated, drove his car head on into Elliott's vehicle, killing himself and Elliott and injuring Elliott's girlfriend.

The Debate of Accountability

Police say they fully informed Powell of Pangle's condition and that he was not to be allowed to drive. They have also said Pangle was clearly intoxicated, barely able to stand and his speech was slurred. Powell's common sense, they have argued, also would have told him that Pangle could not drive.

"The state police followed every rule, every regulation on the books," state police spokesman John Hagerty said at the time of Powell's indictment. "When [Powell] got to state police barracks, his license was checked and he signed a form saying he'd take the individual home. ... [Powell] didn't do his job, pure and simple."

But Powell says he did not realize Pangle was drunk. He and his attorney argue that the police are really responsible for the deaths of two people because they neglected to clearly and fully inform him of Pangle's condition.

"The state police did not tell Mr. Powell, certainly not in a clear and concise manner, Mr. Pangle's condition and his inability to drive," said Powell's attorney, Carl Roeder. "The state police essentially handed over the keys to Mr. Pangle and all the ability to get into this tragic accident. ? We believe that this matter was totally mishandled by the state police."

A Law Too Late

Elliott's death prompted the New Jersey Legislature to pass a new measure, dubbed "John"s Law" in the ensign's honor, in April 2001. The law allows police to hold drunken drivers' cars for 12 hours before allowing them to reclaim their vehicles, and calls on state police to fully inform parties who pick up drunken drivers of the ramifications and consequences they would face if they put the driver back behind the wheel.

Powell was initially charged with allowing an intoxicated person to operate a motor vehicle after the accident. He could not be prosecuted under John's Law, since it was not in existence at the time of the crash. But the furor surrounding Elliott's death led to his indictment on charges of manslaughter, vehicular homicide and aggravated assault after the passage of the new law.

Powell and his attorney believe John's Law was needed. But they also believe it acknowledges the shortcomings of the government ? and the New Jersey State Police ? in the handling of drunken driving cases and the circumstances that led to Elliott's death.

"Well, it's definitely a way of addressing of a problem that has existed for a long time," said Roeder. "Unfortunately, it took an extreme tragedy such as this for the state Legislature to address the problem. Mr. Powell has been charged in this case as no other person has been. The law passed is supposed to prevent this type of accident from ever happening again ? John's Law is designed to do this, be a safeguard against these circumstances."

Potential Prosecution Floodgates

New Jersey State Police have said they followed all the proper procedures in handling Pangle's DUI case. Roeder argues that holes in New Jersey's DUI laws enabled the fatal accident to happen. There was nothing, he said, in New Jersey's laws at the time that made Powell's alleged actions illegal. And charging Powell, he says, opens the floodgates of prosecution: Anyone who enables a driver to become intoxicated and drive should be prosecuted.

"The way they've interpreted DUI law in the state of New Jersey, if you're going to charge my client, then he was in no different a position than a gas station attendant who may notice that a driver may not be equipped to drive," said Roeder. "However, that gas station attendant takes money from the driver, facilitating or making it easier for the driver to get into an accident. Under the construction of the law, the gas station attendant is equally responsible. We think it's a stretch.

"There's no law [in New Jersey] requiring the duty to report [potential] drunk drivers," Roeder added. "We address that issue [in the case] with bridge toll takers. ? They're in a position to notice drunk drivers. The fact that they took money is an affirmative act that facilitates an accident ? they do not have to do that. Mr. Powell would have never been in the position he was in if the state police hadn't called him to begin with. He would have remained asleep in bed."

Still, some experts say the prosecution of third parties in cases like Powell's is fair because everyone who contributes to drunken driving crashes must be punished.

"MADD believes it is completely fair to charge third parties in cases such as these," said Wendy Hamilton, national vice president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. "We don't call them 'accidents' ? people make a choice when they decide to drink and drive. We have precedence for such prosecutions in social host and dram shop laws, and people need to be held responsible."

Under those laws, private hosts and liquor establishments can be held liable for their guests' or patrons' actions if they drink too much. In 1984, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that a social host could be held liable for damages if his guests were involved in drunken driving crashes.

A Failure of the System

At the time of Elliott's death, New Jersey had no impoundment laws, no John's Law. According to MADD, there are only 13 states besides New Jersey that have DUI car impoundment laws.

"That's the tragedy of this case," Roeder said. "It [the law] failed Mr. Elliott, it failed Mr. Powell, it failed everyone in this case. There are three victims in this case, not two."

While acknowledging that no one can foresee tragic accidents, experts say it often takes a tragedy for states to review certain laws or address long-standing problems seriously. But, they say, a death like Elliott's could have been prevented. While not commenting directly on whether more third parties in DUI cases like Powell should be prosecuted to prevent similar accidents, some experts believe the legislative system and perhaps the police failed Elliott.

"Whether people have a moral obligation not to let drunk drivers get behind the wheel is a question in and of itself," said John Moulden, president of the National Commission Against Drunk Driving. "But it's appropriate to look at the failure of a system that did not hold a person until he was sober. Certainly, he should not have been released."

Others say the passage of John's Law in New Jersey was important because it focused on an overlooked problem that probably happened on countless previous occasions.

"I'm willing to stake my life on the possibility that cases like the one in New Jersey have happened several times before," said Hamilton. "That's why it was important to pass John's Law. And currently there similar legislation pending in Maryland."

Charged as an Accomplice

First Assistant Salem County Prosecutor William Brennan declined to comment on the case, citing a need to protect his case and concern over the victim and the victim's family. In the indictment against Powell, prosecutors allege that he was an accomplice to Pangle. Prosecutors have said that Pangle was clearly drunk.

The defense disagrees, maintaining that the state police had the training to pick out an intoxicated person, and that they had a duty to clearly tell Powell what to do with Pangle to keep him from getting back behind the wheel.

"The state troopers are trained individuals. What's obvious to the state troopers may not be to untrained individuals like Mr. Powell," said Roeder. "They had a duty to keep Mr. Pangle off the road. He [Powell] didn't have special expertise."

Roeder said he had no evidence that suggests that Pangle resumed drinking after he was returned to his car.

He said he is investigating the possibility that the police may not have followed the proper procedures with Pangle and is trying to find out whether any of the officers in the case were disciplined or reprimanded internally.

A trial date has not been set for Powell. He has a status hearing set for next week. Prosecutors hope the trial will be in late spring.

 
The Government might have a case. I would like to know what the paper he sighed said. I?m not a lawyer but if he took responsibility for the guy he should not have let him drive. How would he not know he was drunk? Why did he think he was picking him up from the jail?

BTW I might be a little biased in this case, because a friend and coworker of mine was murdered by a drunk driver on Christmas eve. :|
 
He signed for him, he is responsible. If his blood alcohol was twice the legal limit, then it seems to me it would be noticeable that he was intoxicated, wouldn't you think?
 

Kilgor,

You have my sympathies... 🙁





<< He signed for him, he is responsible. If his blood alcohol was twice the legal limit, then it seems to me it would be noticeable that he was intoxicated, wouldn't you think? >>



Yeah but why the hell did the police call the friend to start with? Don't they have procedures to jail these people overnight or something. I dunno, it seems like a case of "I don't wanna do it... let's get someone else to handle it."

I think that the police should take an active role here and stop pushing their job on others.

Keep with this line and soon you'll be busting parents for their kid's drug habits.... and then you'll be busted because you girlfriend's dad's barber's dog-walker's wife's sister-in-law's neice shoplifted or something... okay so this is a stretch but still... sheesh.
 
You have mine too kilgor, thats just horrible. 🙁

xyyz: I think that is procedure, if you have a (supposedly) responsible adult willing to sign for you and take you home, they will let you go. This may vary state to state, but I have heard of it happening here where I live in NY. Now whether that should be allowed is a different story, to me, you get behind the wheel drunk, you belong in jail. But the cops were just doing their jobs, and that guy did assume responsibility. And he did drop off a drunken man to a car, knowing he had just been arrested earlier for the same thing. So, I think he does bear some guilt here. Not of course, as much as the man who actually did the deed, but he does have some.
 


<< He signed for him, he is responsible. If his blood alcohol was twice the legal limit, then it seems to me it would be noticeable that he was intoxicated, wouldn't you think? >>



Hell yes, hew was responsible. For taking him home, not for killing that person. He failed in his responsibility, and should be prosecuted for breach of contract, not manslaughter.

The person responsible was not the friend, nor the police, but the driver, who's now dead.
 


<< Hell yes, hew was responsible. For taking him home, not for killing that person. He failed in his responsibility, and should be prosecuted for breach of contract, not manslaughter. >>



I don't think he took him home he took him to his car.
 


<<

<< Hell yes, he was responsible. For taking him home, not for killing that person. He failed in his responsibility, and should be prosecuted for breach of contract, not manslaughter. >>



I don't think he took him home he took him to his car.
>>



hence "He failed in his responsibility".
 
he signed, so he is guilty of breaking a contract or possibly signing a government document under false pretenses, but he is not guilty of anything related to the death. a drunk idividual is still resposible for what he does, this is well established. even if it is suicicidal, the drunk is still at fault. If he put the guy in the car, aimed it at a brick wall, and put a brick on the pedal, that's murder. If he just left the guy with the keys and the guy suicidally drove himself, then that was dumb, but not legal cause. Again, another instance of the fu<ked up american attitude that things just don't happen, and we have to find someone (else) to blame....and sue.....for profit.....
 
The family could have a case for a wrongful death suit, but charging this guy with these criminal charges is really BS. The following is pretty much BS as well:



<< Still, some experts say the prosecution of third parties in cases like Powell's is fair because everyone who contributes to drunken driving crashes must be punished.

"MADD believes it is completely fair to charge third parties in cases such as these," said Wendy Hamilton, national vice president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. "We don't call them 'accidents' ? people make a choice when they decide to drink and drive. We have precedence for such prosecutions in social host and dram shop laws, and people need to be held responsible."

Under those laws, private hosts and liquor establishments can be held liable for their guests' or patrons' actions if they drink too much. In 1984, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that a social host could be held liable for damages if his guests were involved in drunken driving crashes.
>>



Under that logic shouldn't we be charging beverage companies and auto manufacturers as well? Every person is responsible for his or her actions, and those actions alone. Period. It pisses me off to no end how in this day blame gets spread and passed around like it does. Bah.
 
This doodler drives down to a State Police Barracks to pick up someone arrested for Driving Under The Influence, and promptly drives said friend back to his vehicle to let drive some more?

This idiot deserves to go to jail just for being that stupid.
 
I think this is good. We definatly need more incentive to keep drunk drivers off the road.

A few years back, a police officer was killed while doing a routine traffic stop around here.. It was broad daylight and the driver that hit him wasnt drunk.. The government implemented a new law, you must now slow to 60km/h (normal is 100km/h) while passing emergency vehicles, or pay a hefty fine.. I was with my buddy when we got pulled over for doing 100km/h past a police car who had pulled someone over for speeding. The officer said the ticket was going to be $450. but he got let off becuase it was a very new law, and just got a warning.. Now there are no warnings, you just get a straight ticket..

So everyone I know slows down now..

I just think there needs to be way stiffer penalties for intoxicated driving. Two young people from my highschool have died in as many years from driving intoxicated.. it really needs to stop.
 


<< I think this is good. We definatly need more incentive to keep drunk drivers off the road.

A few years back, a police officer was killed while doing a routine traffic stop around here.. It was broad daylight and the driver that hit him wasnt drunk.. The government implemented a new law, you must now slow to 60km/h (normal is 100km/h) while passing emergency vehicles, or pay a hefty fine.. I was with my buddy when we got pulled over for doing 100km/h past a police car who had pulled someone over for speeding. The officer said the ticket was going to be $450. but he got let off becuase it was a very new law, and just got a warning.. Now there are no warnings, you just get a straight ticket..

So everyone I know slows down now..

I just think there needs to be way stiffer penalties for intoxicated driving. Two young people from my highschool have died in as many years from driving intoxicated.. it really needs to stop.
>>



WTF does that story have to do with anything?
 
<<That is what has happened to Kenneth Powell...>>

There's this guy at my school named Kenneth Powell.
 


<< Under that logic shouldn't we be charging beverage companies and auto manufacturers as well? Every person is responsible for his or her actions, and those actions alone. Period. It pisses me off to no end how in this day blame gets spread and passed around like it does. Bah. >>



When you buy beer it?s your responsibility to not drive while intoxicated. When the guy picked him up from jail he took responsibility for him. It?s true that he?s not directly responsible for the deaths. He was responsible for the drunk that did the killing. If he didn?t want to be he shouldn?t have signed the paper. If you go to hospital and they put you in a room and forget you, they would be negligent. He might not be guilty of manslaughter but he is guilty of negligence.
 
Hell yes he should be prosecuted. If you got a call from the police or your friend in jail asking you to come get him what would your first question be?

Something along the line of "WTF are you in jail for?" So it stands to reason that this idiot probably asked the same question. Now I have a very hard time beliving that this guy had no clue that his buddy was drunk. At some point someone had to say something.

1) When he got the call from the cops/or his freind.
2) At the police station.
3) On the way back to the drunk guys car a conversation *most likely* took place.


If anyone truly belives that he had no possible clue that his friend was drunk you are as much an idiot as he is. I hope he gets nailed both in criminal court and civil court.
















 

first of all this is really stupid. if the guy was drunk the police should have taken him in... can't they bust his ass for public drunkenness or something?

again, this is hypothetical, but what would have prevented the guy from getting into his other car (assuming he had one) after his friend dropped him home and then driving it and killing someone? would the friend still be held responsible then? what would the prosecutor say if someone was killed this way? would he still bust the guy for manslaughter?

this is why the police should have detained the guy.

we don't know how long it took for the friend to pick his friend from whereever he was being held... perhaps the guy seemed to have sobered up and seemed coherent...

the article says:

"The state police did not tell Mr. Powell, certainly not in a clear and concise manner, Mr. Pangle's condition and his inability to drive," said Powell's attorney, Carl Roeder. "The state police essentially handed over the keys to Mr. Pangle and all the ability to get into this tragic accident. ? We believe that this matter was totally mishandled by the state police."

There's an obvious bias here... but think about this... the guy was taken to the police baracks... didn't they have a cell where he could sleep it off there?

I know when kids get drunk durring an evening excursiou to TJ... the SD police or the customs or whoever handles these kids as the cross the border detain them until they become sober.
 
Nope...........The guy was responsible as soon as he agreed to sign for him. What he signed was a waiver of rights and responsibility for his friend agreeing not to allow him to drive, and to return him to either his home, or the parties home.........I know, I've had to do this a few times!😉 I can't say for sure in the state this took place in, but, this is the case in Missouri.

If you're arrested for DUI/DWI it is very uncommon for them to hold you unless you are unable to reach a parent/friend. I'vr had to sign the waivers before and they told me that the person was not to drive for 24hrs and also that we somehow had to arrange for the vehicle to be moved from the spot it was in or it too could be ticketed. IF the person WAS caught driving again, a simple reading of the waiver says that the person signing as well as the party you are signing for can be held responsible for any actions/damages the person may cause.

Like I said, I can't say for sure in the state this took place in, but it seems they are claiming the same responsibilities as the waivers I've seen state clearly if read. The first thing I've done in both cases I've had to deal with this is taken the keys from the person/officer and either given them to the guys wife, or kept them until the next day. I can't say for sure how far reaching the responsibility goes, and I can see why this guy and his lawyers are fighting the charges, but, in any case I don't believe the Police/Hwy. patrol/Sheriff's Dept. is responsible either! They release these people into others custody and upon picking them up/signing for them, you assume responsibility for them the same way a parent is responsible for the actions of a minor if they (the minor) cause the death of another person while DUI/DWI! I'd say a good lawyer may get this guy off, but, within my local area in the past year, we had a suit where a local teen caused the death of a passenger and another person in a car he hit head on...............the parents WERE found to be responsible in the state case and are now being sued in civil court for wrongfull death and I would assume this is where this is heading...........🙁
 
In my quick and untrained assessment of this case I think the State of New Jersey is really grasping at straws and trying to keep their department from being dragged through the mud.

This guy was stupid for letting his friend anywhere near his car when he dropped him off but legally had no responsibility to babysit him until he went to sleep unless of course he signed some agreement stating that he was responsible for just that.

This is ridiculous and will be dropped, or at least when it goes to trial the guy will be found innocent. Hopefully at least, because he does not deserve to do time over this. Maybe probation or something for his stupidity.
 
The failure in this case is not the friend who took his drunk buddy back to his car; it is the law that did not hold this drunk person overnight. whatever happened to "sleeping it off"? to push this drunk person off the hands of law enforcement and into the hands of a citizen while still intoxicated does not make for good procedure as is painfully obvious.

this drunk person was already busted for DUI. what if he did get home successfully with his friend and then just hopped into his wife's car at his home and went out and did the same thing? i don't see much difference. once this person was busted he should have been held until sober; otherwise, why bust him at all if you're just going to let him go and possibly get back into another vehicle.
 
Perhaps Pangle was given the option to spend the night in jail but refused? And that New Jersey doesn't allow them to hold a person overnight for drunk driving if someone is willing to be responsible for them? The article isn't really clear on all the particular's of the situation.
 
I don't understand why he would take him back to his car:| I know someone that was stopped for a DUI, the police didn't give him a ticket they just drove him home. Right after they left, he got in his other car and drove to another bar.
 


<< The Government might have a case. I would like to know what the paper he sighed said. I?m not a lawyer but if he took responsibility for the guy he should not have let him drive. How would he not know he was drunk? Why did he think he was picking him up from the jail?

BTW I might be a little biased in this case, because a friend and coworker of mine was murdered by a drunk driver on Christmas eve. :|
>>




What she said!
 
Back
Top