Ok Pro Sales-Tax Folks, Sell Me On It

[ViRGE]

As per some of the other discussions about the sales tax, I'm curious as to what those of you who are pro sales-tax can do to convince me that a sales-tax for Oregon is the way to go. Right now, Oregon doesn't have a sales tax, and uses income and property taxes to pay for everything, which had lead to a problem with a shortfall of more than $1bil, out of only an $11bil budget.

As a bit of background, Oregon residents have turned down a sales tax more often than you have fingers on your right hand, so it has not been popular up to this point. Oregon is not a huge tourist state(we're more popular than North Dakota, but nothing compared to Cali, Florida, etc), so just about all of the money from the tax would come from the residents themselves. The property tax system is basically locked up tight due to previous measures, so for the sake of argument, any effort to replace one tax with another would be a reduction/replacement of the income tax with the introduction of the sales tax.

Under these conditions, it seems sort of silly to go to a sales tax, as businesses would have to adjust, and the population as a whole, entirely unfamiliar with paying more than list price for something, would have to adjust to the tax. So, here's my challenge to you: I'm on the fence since I'm moving out of state for school anyhow, so please try to convince me(and any other Oregonians reading) that a sales tax is the way to go for our state, as opposed to our current system of income taxes. I'm not expecting to really change my entire opinion here, but I'd like to see something besides the rhetoric that the politicians have been spouting.

PS As an extra challenge, a sales tax might not go over to well with some of our largest employers, such as Intel, who get big tax breaks in the first place

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
As per some of the other discussions about the sales tax, I'm curious as to what those of you who are pro sales-tax can do to convince me that a sales-tax for Oregon is the way to go. Right now, Oregon doesn't have a sales tax, and uses income and property taxes to pay for everything, which had lead to a problem with a shortfall of more than $1bil, out of only an $11bil budget.

As a bit of background, Oregon residents have turned down a sales tax more often than you have fingers on your right hand, so it has not been popular up to this point. Oregon is not a huge tourist state(we're more popular than North Dakota, but nothing compared to Cali, Florida, etc), so just about all of the money from the tax would come from the residents themselves. The property tax system is basically locked up tight due to previous measures, so for the sake of argument, any effort to replace one tax with another would be a reduction/replacement of the income tax with the introduction of the sales tax.

Under these conditions, it seems sort of silly to go to a sales tax, as businesses would have to adjust, and the population as a whole, entirely unfamiliar with paying more than list price for something, would have to adjust to the tax. So, here's my challenge to you: I'm on the fence since I'm moving out of state for school anyhow, so please try to convince me(and any other Oregonians reading) that a sales tax is the way to go for our state, as opposed to our current system of income taxes. I'm not expecting to really change my entire opinion here, but I'd like to see something besides the rhetoric that the politicians have been spouting.

PS As an extra challenge, a sales tax might not go over to well with some of our largest employers, such as Intel, who get big tax breaks in the first place

It is the best tax available. If you dont want to pay the tax, you dont buy the product. If you need the product, you buy it used.

Income tax - loss of freedom as the goverment does not need to know how much you make.
Property tax - means you only rent from the goverment, you dont really own anything. Big loss of freedom.

I would not allow another tax to be added, as it is unlikely income or property tax will go away. Next year they will have a sales tax and still have budget problems and will be looking for new streams of revenue.

 

[Linflas]

It also has the advantage of taxing illegal income as well whenever it is used to purchase legal goods and services.

 

[JellyBaby]

Right now, Oregon doesn't have a sales tax, and uses income and property taxes to pay for everything, which had lead to a problem with a shortfall of more than $1bil, out of only an $11bil budget.

Has your state's legislators passed any laws to reduce their salaries? Every little bit helps.

 

[ViRGE]

Actually yes, both the governer and legislators. They've also frozen the pay of state employees(although trying to cut retirement benefits at the same time).

 

[rbV5]

Property tax - means you only rent from the goverment, you dont really own anything. Big loss of freedom

Stable revenue source during all economic conditions, federally tax deductable. Lack of services and poor schools is a much bigger loss of freedom.

Income tax - loss of freedom as the goverment does not need to know how much you make

Since the government already knows what you make through the Federal Income tax this is a completely moot point. Wildly fluctuating revenue source dependant on employment. (Oregon at or near the top in unemployment)

I say, enact sales tax and eliminate income tax, otherwise sales tax must die IMHO. One doesn't have to look to far to see the folly of adding another tax for revenue stability. Bottom line is that with the present tax structure, those who work must make up for those who don't simple as that. Oregonians have a low overall tax rate, yet whine about the personal income tax. Ballot measure 5 only served to screw family home owners out of stable school funding through the guise of high hidden taxes (user fees) less tax deductability (lower federally deductable property taxes) while shifting buisness taxes (even more lowered property taxes) to individuals, and making our schools and local government suffer.

I grew up in Oregon in a small town and enjoyed a rich education, and full funded services payed for by my parents and grandparents. Apparently my generation doesn't feel obligated to do the same for our children and communiities...shamefull really. It seems easy to blame pensioners, teachers and government workers for the wastefull spending of administrators and elected government officials, and the pitiful campaign to "correct" runaway school spending on the back of our kids, the folks that actually do the work and the structures we've all invested in. I'm watching it all fall apart around me sadly.

Personally, I don't mind paying my part, but I'm in the minority here in Oregon.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Property tax - means you only rent from the goverment, you dont really own anything. Big loss of freedom

Stable revenue source during all economic conditions, federally tax deductable. Lack of services and poor schools is a much bigger loss of freedom.


No tax stream is safe during lean times. People are often taxed out of their home because their salaries do not increase as quickly as the property values. This all to commonly happens to older folks on a fixed income.

Income tax - loss of freedom as the goverment does not need to know how much you make

Since the government already knows what you make through the Federal Income tax this is a completely moot point. Wildly fluctuating revenue source dependant on employment. (Oregon at or near the top in unemployment)

Just because the fed has your earning income does not mean the state needs it as well. Neither should have this info.

 

[dmcowen674]

"No tax stream is safe during lean times. People are often taxed out of their home because their salaries do not increase as quickly as the property values. This all to commonly happens to older folks on a fixed income."

Virge,

More Taxes are just as bad as more Laws. They pile them on and they never go away, it only gets worse and worse like leeches draining your blood.

Here is what happened on Long Island New York in the mid 1980's that caused For Sale signs as far as the eye can see but most were trapped, literally jailed in their own homes:

1985 Tax on 3 bedroom home $3,000
1986 Tax on same 3 bedroom home $5,000
1987 Tax on same 3 bedroom home $8,000

Like someone earlier posted, did your salary get adjusted to keep up, No. Did people on fixed income get some sort of Tax break, No.
People that were able to get out sold their homes at Firesale prices. Those that couldn't lived on a level so much lower it was unbelievable, except of course the Politicians that did it to the citizenry.

 

[rbV5]

No tax stream is safe during lean times. People are often taxed out of their home because their salaries do not increase as quickly as the property values. This all to commonly happens to older folks on a fixed income

Property tax relief for Seniors makes more sense to me than this nonsense tax relief for business and home owners with moderate incomes such as myself. Seniors and students, the folks in society that can do the least for themselves are amoung the hardest hit now despite our wonderful property tax relief. Funding for services of all kinds from long term care, medical care, mental health, housing, and prescriptions and education are getting hit hard. Property crime that isn't prosecuted, criminals getting early releases tend to affect those more frail and vunerable in our neighborhoods. All you have to do is look around to see who is really getting hurt here.