ok....now I understand why the rest of the world hates us

[BaliBabyDoc]

The US position is BS. Let's just take Wolfowitz's public blather. I fully accept the concept of protecting sources. But if Saddam has SO much material why can't we reveal the location of ONE mosque or ONE hospital where Saddam is stashing material? In my mind revealing a sensitive location might prompt Saddam to move material we don't know about which would make it easier to find.

I think the truth is that our intel' sux. Saddam is certainly responsible for guiding inspectors but there's little real difference between Saddam's lack of assistance and the dearth of information from US intelligence. We don't care about the inspections. We volunteered Predators and U2s for our purposes. The Iraqi scientists were the only real hope. But let's be clear . . . a flood of intelligence from inside Iraq would be an excuse for invasion, any degree of resistance/non-compliance would be an excuse for invasion, and the weather will be used as an excuse for an imminent invasion.

In summary, we have little more than innuendo on Saddam. I'm not discounting his past offenses but the administration has clearly indicted Saddam on past behavior being indicative of what he is likely to do in the future. The truth is those past offenses weren't significant in comparison to competing US interests. The Bush admin pipe dream is to take Iraq . . . largely intact . . . with minimal US casualties. We will subsequently administer Iraqi oil while supervising a puppet regime likely akin to the Shah of Iran. Anyone that believes our current policy will usher in a nascent (or sustainable) democracy needs to pass the blunt b/c they're already toasted.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: hagbard
Here yah go:

Sign up!

LOL!

Yea, I'd love to see how far THEY get.

Hopper

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: minus1972
where is there any information that the weapons inspectors have found anything of merit in Iraq?

The Inspectors are not supposed to "find" anything, Iraq is supposed to lead them to it.

That also has been missed during this whole debate.

Hopper

Maybe the U.S. should get inspected after Iraq does.

Stupid analogy, Iraq signed the NPT, Iraq lost the war and as part of the cease-fire agreement agreed to divest of all chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and programs to make such.

Try again with something worthwhile.

That is not an example of an analogy.

In any case, i take it you don't agree with what I said. I really could care less what that [iraq] govt. had to do or what deals it had to make with ours to get us off their back. And yes, I hate Sadaam and his treatment of his people, particularly the ethnic minorities of the country, HOWEVER, that does not mean we need to wage a full scale war and that does not justify the incessant bombing of that country for the past 10 years or so by 'allied' read: Brit and U.S. war planes. My point was that if it has become our 'job' to police the world, who is police-ing us? Even though this country was founded on democratic principles such as freedom of speech, life, liberty, etc., almost anytime someone says something contrary to what our government is doing, we are brandished as traitors, hypocrities, lefties, or sell-outs. This behavior has been demonstrated countless times on ATOT itself. Quite frankly, if you honestly don't believe there is more to this upcoming war than just the WMD or his 'threat to the world,' you are either in denial or are naive.

 

[etech]

SherEPunjab


Why not just stay on the topic instead of branching off into the by now old and tired refrain of the "US is the Great Satan". Oh that's right, that's what this entire thread is about isn't it.

The rest of the world hates us until they need rebuilding after they start a world war, are need some aid for a starving country, or well you know the refrain.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: etech
SherEPunjab


Why not just stay on the topic instead of branching off into the by now old and tired refrain of the "US is the Great Satan". Oh that's right, that's what this entire thread is about isn't it.

The rest of the world hates us until they need rebuilding after they start a world war, are need some aid for a starving country, or well you know the refrain.

When did i say the US is the Great Satan? I was born, and raised in this country. I love it. And I can also differentiate between our government and our people. I'm not proud of our government now, nor was I proud when we had a democrat, namely Bill Clinton. Our government has a history of doing a lot of sleazy things, regardless of the party in office. In any case, this is going off topic so i'll end it, but I think we should realize the difference between criticism and hatred. Do you really expect every American to blindly stand behind whatever our govt. tells us to do... when it is the common man (not the rich or the powerful) who has to go and fight to defend this country? Shouldn't we have a say in any of this, or should we just believe what our govt. tells us? i'm out for dinner, check back l8tr.

 

[etech]

SherEPunjab

I really could care less what that [iraq] govt. had to do or what deals it had to make with ours to get us off their back.

Iraq signed the NPT in 1968 I believe. Please tell me what that had to do with getting the US off of their backs.

Iraq started the Gulf War. SO your contention is that they just signed the UN cease-fire agreement to get us off of their backs.

You have a skewed view of the world imho.

 

[Bluga]

If the CIA is so good at "intelligence" ehy can't they come up with ONE site that has WMD?

Where are all those high tech equipment that tax-payers are paying?

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought the CIA said Iraq wasn't a threat, or have they fired the poor honest fool who said that.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: Bluga
If the CIA is so good at "intelligence" ehy can't they come up with ONE site that has WMD?

Where are all those high tech equipment that tax-payers are paying?

We knew how good the CIA was when, even after numerous threats, we couldn't stop a bunch of expired student visa carrying arabs from the WTC disaster.

 

[Moonbeam]

Good article here on just how unAmerican the CIA is. What a bunch of traitors.

 

[Tom]

How do you get from that article that the rest of the world hates us ?

What "rest of the world" are you talking about ?

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: jahawkin

The administration asserts, without offering evidence, that Iraq has thwarted inspectors by hiding the weapons.

How is this statement wrong?? Where are the hidden Iraqi weapons??

Read

Again, where are the hidden weapons??

Hmmm...you made this post so you can obviously read and write....don't know what to tell you bud. You'll obviously keep going on with "where are the hidden weapons" till your blue in the face.

Did you go back and read what I was originally responding too??
The following quote from the Times was supposed to be wrong and show the bias of the paper:
"The administration asserts, without offering evidence, that Iraq has thwarted inspectors by hiding the weapons."
I was just asking what part of that quote was wrong. No one has shown any evidence that this is wrong.

 

[Bluga]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Good article here on just how unAmerican the CIA is. What a bunch of traitors.

Traitors because they are speaking truth?

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Good article here on just how unAmerican the CIA is. What a bunch of traitors.

Wow that was a good article. thanx for sharing that. i'm gonna pass this one on.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yup, Bluga, you know what a ruckus truth can cause.

 

[MinorityReport]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: Bluga
If the CIA is so good at "intelligence" ehy can't they come up with ONE site that has WMD?

Where are all those high tech equipment that tax-payers are paying?

We knew how good the CIA was when, even after numerous threats, we couldn't stop a bunch of expired student visa carrying arabs from the WTC disaster.

And add FBI to that list as well.

Recently they published 5 pictures of men who "supposedly crossed into US illegally from canada and were potential suspects for questionning"

Well now it seems they are all bogus .. and one guy whose picture appeard is a jewller from pakistan living INSIDE Pakistan .. who never been in his lifetime sstepped into the USA.

Some random pictrures of guys .. lmao

I wonder how much they paid the person who gave them those pics .. $100k per picture ...shame

Something is just not right . . Americans have a right to question the agencies that screw up everytime ..enough donuts have been eaten now.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Good article here on just how unAmerican the CIA is. What a bunch of traitors.

Wow that was a good article. thanx for sharing that. i'm gonna pass this one on.

I'm seeing stories like that every day. Bush is completely out of control and its only a matter of time before the hawks in this forum see that.

 

[da loser]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
But if Saddam has SO much material why can't we reveal the location of ONE mosque or ONE hospital where Saddam is stashing material? In my mind revealing a sensitive location might prompt Saddam to move material we don't know about which would make it easier to find.

I think the truth is that our intel' sux.
Saddam is certainly responsible for guiding inspectors but there's little real difference between Saddam's lack of assistance and the dearth of information from US intelligence. We don't care about the inspections. We volunteered Predators and U2s for our purposes. The Iraqi scientists were the only real hope. But let's be clear . . . a flood of intelligence from inside Iraq would be an excuse for invasion, any degree of resistance/non-compliance would be an excuse for invasion, and the weather will be used as an excuse for an imminent invasion.

so you say it yourself, why can't we find the material, because our intel sux. we've depended upon the high tech gadgetry when we need people on the ground. what purposes are you eluding to with the predators and u2s? to find places to bomb when we invade Iraq? I would think it would be even more important to find where weapons are hidden. you're right iraqi scientists are our only real hope, so with saddam preventing us from interviewing them outside of the country with their family will hinder our greatest hope. A flood of intelligence would be an excuse, but is that excuse valid? yes, because he's not supposed to have them. obviously, you make it clear with this statement that you want no invasion whether he has these or not. how do you plan to solve this problem? just leave him in power until he does something bad? when he has deployable wmds just like north korea, and we have to use a policy of appeasement?

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm not discounting his past offenses but the administration has clearly indicted Saddam on past behavior being indicative of what he is likely to do in the future. The truth is those past offenses weren't significant in comparison to competing US interests. Anyone that believes our current policy will usher in a nascent (or sustainable) democracy needs to pass the blunt b/c they're already toasted.

what are these competing interests you speak of? his past offenses are trying to obtain wmds, we're trying to prevent this, if he stays in power he will continue to, if you don't believe this, then what is his current plan for iraq? to starve his people to death and build more fabulous mansions with the excess money or to just maintain his current power? why don't you believe a sustainable democracy can be continued, the shah of iran? I think that situation is very different because we wanted stability vs the ussr. now, we just want stability for iraq. plus, i believe in the past they were a democracy (i might be wrong on this point). Sometimes you make a lot of sense, but i find your whole post to be void of it. what would be your plan for iraq? let the inspections continue indefinately? what happens when we do find? what is your timeline of not finding them? where is your compassion for the iraqi people. imo i wouldn't have deployed troops, and would've let inspectors go on for another year, but i'm not privy to information of how far along the us thinks his program is and how safe a decision this would be.

 

[Damage]

Originally posted by: yellowperil
Compare the U.S.-Iraq situation to the American ideals of the criminal justice system.

Criminal justice - burden of proof on the prosecution, presumption of innocence.
U.S.-Iraq - burden of proof on the 'defendant', presumption of guilt.

It is crazy how badly Bush wants to jump the 'smoking gun'. When the inspectors don't find what they're looking for, what do they report? Not "we still haven't found the evidence"; instead, "this provides further proof that Iraq is hiding their weapons and thus is in material breach." Any rational thinking person would realize this is a logical fallacy; absence of proof doesn't prove anything...except, of course that you can't find any proof at the moment.

We can use that comparison.. Iraq = On parole.. Has to report in, isn't allowed weapons. If seen with people they shouldn't be, the burden of proof is on the criminal to prrove they aren't breaking parole. Pretty simple really.. BTW, they are on parole because of THEIR OWN hostile action and the U.N. recognized that fact... (16-17 times now?)

Moonbeam, haven't you beat the Bush thing to death already? I do think it's good to disagree, but sheez.. That's a little overboard don't you think? I do think he has a valid point in stating that if the U.N. doesn't have the courage of it's convictions, it will make itself irrelevant.

I find the LA Times story to be irrelevant, as the CIA + FBI aren't held in the highest respects after 9/11 anyway. Would you take whatever they said as gospel? I also find that they are a liberal biased paper, presenting news with a typical slant as the writers are skilled, but wordsmith facts into bias.