OK let's finish this: Killing when is it OK in self defence?, read OP before Poll.

[Matthiasa]

OK so for you, it's when they come towards you?

More or less yes, especially if instructed not to.
Now that is assuming they are using something other then a gun(or ranged device)...

If a gun in is hand(or within reach)that would be instant forfeiture of their life.

 

[HAL9000]

More or less yes, especially if instructed not to.
Now that is assuming they are using something other then a gun(or ranged device)...

If a gun in is hand(or within reach)that would be instant forfeiture of their life.

OK fair enough, is it just if they head towards you in a threatening manner or if they walk towards you in any way.

 

[Matthiasa]

With a weapon in hand(given normal circumstances) just walking towards me would be enough.

 

[KK]

Just agree with the tard, he'll go away.

 

[hdfxst]

Why at that point?

Because that's the consequence for breaking into my house.I just don't want him bleeding all over my hardwood floors,and yes i value my floors more than some dick wads life

 

[vi edit]

Here's my premise: Once you break into my house, at night, then all moral and legal rights given to you have been forfieted. You aren't there to make friends or ask for a cup of sugar. Doubly so if you are wielding a weapon. If I present a weapon and you aren't running to the door you will be shot, as many times as necessary to bring you down.

Thankfully it's one legal right my otherwise liberal state supports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#Illinois

If I come home from lunch and you are breaking in during the day that's a different story. But at night when my family is sleeping all bets are off.

 

[corwin]

Seriously not banned yet? WTF?

And logically a human life can only be valued by it's impact up to the present moment, "assuming" they have potential to do better wyeb they've not shown a history of it would be illogical, hence they're life is worth less.

 

[zerocool84]

Sorry but if someone breaks into my house, I'm not going to wait to see how they want to threaten me. They already threatened me by invading the most private area in the world to majority of people. I will not hesitate to react back in a threatening manner. I will not wait to see if they have a gun, a knife, or a bazooka. Saying they are not threatening you if you are upstairs and they are downstairs is retarded, breaking into your house is a threatening act here in Amercia and in every other normal part of the world. In the UK it`s not since we all know you can do that and the law can do nothing about it.

 

[wischeez]

If you are standing, facing me with a knife in your hand, you will be warned one time that I have a gun and to drop the weapon. If you turn and attempt to leave, you will not be shot. If you drop the weapon, you will not be shot. If you start moving toward me with the weapon, you will be warned one last time. If you continue coming toward me your intentions are very clear to me, you will be dropped where you are.
Previous military experience, and cops in my family.

If you have a gun, all bets are off.

 

[ultimatebob]

Ok HAL, I'll bite. What would a anti-gun pacifist like yourself do in this situation, besides probably get yourself killed?

 

[ahenkel]

What people don't realize is criminals in Britain are polite enough to call ahead and let you know their intentions. Every criminal is basically a villain in an 80's Saturday morning cartoon.

 

[lxskllr]

For all the bitching, this thread's gotten a lot of responses :^D

 

[CPA]

It's the potential of all life, if you don't know what that person offers, how they contribute then they have unknown potential.

It's not up to me or you to determine their future potential. All we have to do is understand what is the present.

 

[CPA]

Here's my premise: Once you break into my house, at night, then all moral and legal rights given to you have been forfieted. You aren't there to make friends or ask for a cup of sugar. Doubly so if you are wielding a weapon. If I present a weapon and you aren't running to the door you will be shot, as many times as necessary to bring you down.

Thankfully it's one legal right my otherwise liberal state supports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#Illinois

If I come home from lunch and you are breaking in during the day that's a different story. But at night when my family is sleeping all bets are off.

Why just night? You should have no moral or legal obligation to behave any differently during the day than at night.

 

[vi edit]

Why just night? You should have no moral or legal obligation to behave any differently during the day than at night.

Two reasons. One, the nature of the criminal breaking in during the day is much different than night. And two, even though IL has castle laws, I wouldn't want to test my luck with a daytime B&E vs. nighttime one.

 

[CPA]

Two reasons. One, the nature of the criminal breaking in during the day is much different than night. And two, even though IL has castle laws, I wouldn't want to test my luck with a daytime B&E vs. nighttime one.

I don't buy your first assertion, but won't doubt your second.

 

[HAL9000]

Good replies people, I'll be back in a bit, watching a film.

 

[vi edit]

And one other comment is that should this actually come to be a reality for most of us, I highly doubt that any bit of logic is going to be applied to the situation. You'll have so much adrenaline rushing through you that you'll be operating on instinct and emotion. Logic takes a back door.

 

[WHAMPOM]

It has been brought screaming to my attention that I am in the extreme minority when it comes to my views on killing in self defence, which is making me question that perhaps I'm wrong to hold the view that I do. I'm more than happy to be wrong, but I won't accept that I am wrong without a reasoned argument to the contrary, or a superior argument to the one I make. So, here is my argument, the belief I hold with regards to killing a person in self defence.

Premise: Human life is the most valuable thing on the planet, it deserves respect, as human life has created some of the greatest and most terrible things the world has ever known, before that life is over we are unable to determine what potential each life has, whether they are a potential Ghandi or a potential Hitler is unknown, until their life has been lived, it is this potential that is unique to human beings, this potential is what gives a strangers life value, and that value requires respect.

Premise 2: As human life has value and requires respect taking a human beings life should only be done in cases where something of greater value would be lost or taken if no action is taken. I.e. If a person of known value will die, rather than unknown value, if multiple people will die rather than a single person, or if a person who has more potential or a more valuable contribution to the world will die if a person of lesser potential or value does not die. I.e. an 80 year old man has to die to save a 5 year old. Or Hitler has to die to save Ghandi.

Conclusion: In a home invasion scenario the invader should not be killed until it is absolutely clear that he/ she poses a very real an definite undeniable threat to the life or lives of others.

Please feel free to pick it apart, explaining what is wrong with it, how you feel contrary to it, and how I should feel.

Please do not just hurl insults and abuse, it benefits no one.

I am including in this thread a poll, that gives you the chance to say where you draw the line, where you think that killing an assailant in a hypothetical situation is acceptable. The situation is as follows.

A Man has broken into your home, while you are home, and while your family sleeps. You are woken by the noise, you are armed with a loaded handgun. The poll options are different points in this hypothetical at which you can choose to take the mans life, as the situation develops, please choose a poll option, then explain why you feel that way in the thread.

Please note, I won't reply to everyone, I imagine a lot of people will post.

What ever potential they may have is moot, Ghandi would not break into your house with a knife, so shoot Hitler.

 

[SparkyJJO]

To hurt you?

So let's wait around and see if he means to just hurt me or kill me.

Much rather not take such a risk. If you want to, go right ahead. Not me.

If someone breaks into my house, and is coming at me with a lethal weapon, for all intents and purposes he is coming at me to kill me. Therefore I'm defending myself, by lethal force if that's what it takes. I'm not going to wait around and run through 5825623956 possible scenarios.

 

[Schadenfroh]

A Man has broken into your home, while you are home, and while your family sleeps. You are woken by the noise, you are armed with a loaded handgun. The poll options are different points in this hypothetical at which you can choose to take the mans life, as the situation develops, please choose a poll option, then explain why you feel that way in the thread.

In this situation:

1. I order him to stand still regardless of whether or not I see a weapon
2. If he is responsive and rational, he will leave and I will call the police to report the incident on a non-emergency line
3. If he walks towards me after I order him to leave, I aim the gun at him and ask him one last time
4. If he continues to walk towards me, I shoot, he dies

 

[davmat787]

And one other comment is that should this actually come to be a reality for most of us, I highly doubt that any bit of logic is going to be applied to the situation. You'll have so much adrenaline rushing through you that you'll be operating on instinct and emotion. Logic takes a back door.

Ha! I was just about to post something to the same effect. The OP keeps looking for a logical statement to change his mind, when the situation is dealing with someone who is acting very illogical. And as you say, the adrenaline, raw emotions, fear, and fight or flight instincts marginalize logic.

 

[BoomerD]

What? No one mentions the cheap-o unregistered Saturday Night Special they'd stick in the hand of the intruder after they'd shot him dead?

ALWAYS keep a POS "throw-down" for such occasions.

 

[KaOTiK]

If my dogs didn't kill him, I would.

 

[Kirby]

Killed as soon as I notice them. In the face, in the back, as they are fleeing, stealing a tv, eating a sandwich, whatever.