OK Im trying to understand this...

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
So...Obama, as we all know, campaigned on transperancy. You would think congress would be behind him on this (Pelosi has made similar transperancy comments). So why are the Democrats so against allowing the public to see one of the most important bills in our lifetime? Im, for now, going to withhold partisan comments and give the left here a chance to explain...because Im just not seeing it.

Congressional leaders fight against posting bills online

As Congress lurches closer to a decision on an enormous overhaul of the American health care system, pressure is mounting on legislative leaders to make the final bill available online for citizens to read before a vote.

Lawmakers were given just hours to examine the $789 billion stimulus plan, sweeping climate-change legislation and a $700 billion bailout package before final votes.

While most Americans normally ignore parliamentary detail, with health care looming, voters are suddenly paying attention. The Senate is expected to vote on a health bill in the weeks to come, representing months of work and stretching to hundreds of pages. And as of now, there is no assurance that members of the public, or even the senators themselves, will be given the chance to read the legislation before a vote.

"The American people are now suspicious of not only the lawmakers, but the process they hide behind to do their work," said Michael Franc, president of government relations for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

At town hall meetings across the country this past summer, the main topic was health care, but there was a strong undercurrent of anger over the way Congress rushed through passage of the stimulus, global warming and bank bailout bills without seeming to understand the consequences. The stimulus bill, for example, was 1,100 pages long and made available to Congress and the public just 13 hours before lawmakers voted on it. The bill has failed to provide the promised help to the job market, and there was outrage when it was discovered that the legislation included an amendment allowing American International Group, a bailout recipient, to give out millions in employee bonuses.

"If someone had a chance to look at the bill, they would have found that out," said Lisa Rosenberg, who lobbies Congress on behalf of the Sunlight Foundation to bring more transparency to government.

The foundation has begun an effort to get Congress to post bills online, for all to see, 72 hours before lawmakers vote on them.

"It would give the public a chance to really digest and understand what is in the bill," Rosenberg said, "and communicate whether that is a good or a bad thing while there is still time to fix it."

A similar effort is under way in Congress. Reps. Brian Baird, D-Wash., and Greg Walden, R-Ore., are circulating a petition among House lawmakers that would force a vote on the 72-hour rule.

Nearly every Republican has signed on, but the Democratic leadership is unwilling to cede control over when bills are brought to the floor for votes and are discouraging their rank and file from signing the petition. Senate Democrats voted down a similar measure last week for the health care bill.

The reluctance to implement a three-day rule is not unique to the Democrats.

The Republican majority rushed through the controversial Patriot Act in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as well as a massive Medicare prescription drug bill in 2003 that added hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit.

For the majority party, legislative timing plays a big role in whether a bill will pass because support can be fleeting.

"The leaders use it as a tool to get votes or to keep amendments off a bill," said one top Senate Democratic aide.

But Baird warned of public backlash.

"Democrats know politically it's difficult to defend not doing this," he said. "The public gets this. They say we entrust you with the profound responsibility of making decisions that affect our lives, and we expect you to exercise due diligence in carrying out that responsibility."
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,396
8,559
126
most ethical congress ever?

i guess the bar is pretty low....
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Where are the names of the leaders of congress they are blaming for this? Baucus is stalling right now to pander to the lobbyist so they can strip it even further of any meaningful reform.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Ausm
Where are the names of the leaders of congress they are blaming for this? Baucus is stalling right now to pander to the lobbyist so they can strip it even further of any meaningful reform.

Psst. This isnt about health care bills themselves. Its about not making them available for the public to see. Oh, and if you actually read the article, your question of who would be answered.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Ausm
Where are the names of the leaders of congress they are blaming for this? Baucus is stalling right now to pander to the lobbyist so they can strip it even further of any meaningful reform.

Psst. This isnt about health care bills themselves. Its about not making them available for the public to see. Oh, and if you actually read the article, your question of who would be answered.

I did read the article that's why I was wondering who in the leadership was being blamed for the lack of transparency claim.
 

imported_inspire

Senior member
Jun 29, 2006
986
0
0
I'm fed up with all this 'crisis legislation'. Every administration uses this tactic of creating a crisis, and rushing legislation. Something needs to be done to stop it.
 

bl4ckfl4g

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2007
3,669
0
0
I think I understand why they don't want to be held to 72 hours. If they need to act earlier or change their minds on when a bill is to go to the floor, this is just extra red tape in the way of a normal process.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: Ausm
Where are the names of the leaders of congress they are blaming for this? Baucus is stalling right now to pander to the lobbyist so they can strip it even further of any meaningful reform.

Why is it when someone in congress doesn't do what you personally want, it's called pandering to the lobbyists? Last time I checked, the medical and pharmaceutical industries lined up to get their slice of the pie when Obama was first drafting this monstrosity.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
I think I understand why they don't want to be held to 72 hours. If they need to act earlier or change their minds on when a bill is to go to the floor, this is just extra red tape in the way of a normal process.

It's because they know the bill is largely incomprehensible and will hurt public support allowing them to read it before the vote. That's why this amendment was basically a strict party-line vote. Hey, the same applies to pretty much every bill that is created and voted upon, regardless of which letter holds the majority.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,743
54,757
136
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
I think I understand why they don't want to be held to 72 hours. If they need to act earlier or change their minds on when a bill is to go to the floor, this is just extra red tape in the way of a normal process.

It's because they know the bill is largely incomprehensible and will hurt public support allowing them to read it before the vote. That's why this amendment was basically a strict party-line vote. Hey, the same applies to pretty much every bill that is created and voted upon, regardless of which letter holds the majority.

This. The entire idea of posting up bills for people to read is largely nonsense anyway. Has anyone here tried to read and understand a bill in it's actual legislated form? It's pretty damn hard, and the amount of footnotes, etc are incredible. (that's why these bills are 1,000 pages. It's not that there are 1,000 new pages of regulations, it's that it takes that much paper to correlate it with other laws, etc.)

While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is another explosion of insanity from right wing crazies that read sections of the bill they don't understand. This is how we got 'death panels' and the like.

So I guess bad on the Democrats for promising something and not doing it, but it was a dumb promise to make to begin with.
 

NaughtyGeek

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,065
0
71
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
I think I understand why they don't want to be held to 72 hours. If they need to act earlier or change their minds on when a bill is to go to the floor, this is just extra red tape in the way of a normal process.

I personally see no reason why any legislation cannot wait 72 hours to be passed. The only reason for holding bills from public view before voting is to be sure that these asshats don't get called out on BS pet projects and padding the pockets of whatever corporate interests current legislation happens to be pandering to. If "We the People" are allowed to see what's being voted on before voting occurs, it makes it much tougher to line buddies pockets with taxpayers dollars.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Ausm
Where are the names of the leaders of congress they are blaming for this? Baucus is stalling right now to pander to the lobbyist so they can strip it even further of any meaningful reform.

Why is it when someone in congress doesn't do what you personally want, it's called pandering to the lobbyists? Last time I checked, the medical and pharmaceutical industries lined up to get their slice of the pie when Obama was first drafting this monstrosity.


And you think this isn't apparent to anyone who knows anything about how Washington works? I have every fucking right to be pissed off at Congress. I am pretty sure that there are plenty of Americans who would back me on this.

Don't get my way?? WTF A hybrid form of the Status Quo is fucking bullshit imo. My pipedream is that someday fucking Congress will work for the people and not special interests especially when they are dealing with people fucking lives.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Originally posted by: eskimospy
While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is an explosion of insanity from left wing loonies that read sections of the bill that don't conform to the liberal agenda. This is how we got chain migration and the like.
See what I did there??

This is not a Dem or Repub issue. This is about putting an end to BOTH parties slipping pork past our noses in that "obscure legaleeze" the bills are written in and in the process driving up deficits, entitlements, and ultimately taxes.

Posting it online will give the armies of bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates out there from BOTH sides to scrutinize and argue its merits. And give us the people a couple days warning to have a phone surge to our reps to support or reject it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,743
54,757
136
Originally posted by: brencat
Originally posted by: eskimospy
While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is an explosion of insanity from left wing loonies that read sections of the bill that don't conform to the liberal agenda. This is how we got chain migration and the like.
See what I did there??

This is not a Dem or Repub issue. This is about putting an end to BOTH parties slipping pork past our noses in that "obscure legaleeze" the bills are written in and in the process driving up deficits, entitlements, and ultimately taxes.

Posting it online will give the armies of bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates out there from BOTH sides to scrutinize and argue its merits. And give us the people a couple days warning to have a phone surge to our reps to support or reject it.

Yes and what you did there has nothing to do with why the Democrats aren't publishing the bill. Lord only knows how you got 'chain migration' out of this. Anyways, despite all the press that pork gets, it accounts for a tiny fraction of US federal spending. There are way more important things to worry about.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,396
8,559
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

yes and not posting it and letting tons of rumors and fiction fly around is so much better :roll: if this isn't arrogance i don't know what is. 'we know what's good for you but we're not going to tell you what that is until it's too late for anyone to do anything about it'
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: brencat
Originally posted by: eskimospy
While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is an explosion of insanity from left wing loonies that read sections of the bill that don't conform to the liberal agenda. This is how we got chain migration and the like.
See what I did there??

This is not a Dem or Repub issue. This is about putting an end to BOTH parties slipping pork past our noses in that "obscure legaleeze" the bills are written in and in the process driving up deficits, entitlements, and ultimately taxes.

Posting it online will give the armies of bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates out there from BOTH sides to scrutinize and argue its merits. And give us the people a couple days warning to have a phone surge to our reps to support or reject it.

Yes and what you did there has nothing to do with why the Democrats aren't publishing the bill. Lord only knows how you got 'chain migration' out of this. Anyways, despite all the press that pork gets, it accounts for a tiny fraction of US federal spending. There are way more important things to worry about.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

so in your world its ok to throw a gazillion page bill out there just hours before its to be voted into law??? that just crazy man.

i see, we are all idiots and we should be good little sheep and trust politicians because they are experts. gotcha ya.

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
This. The entire idea of posting up bills for people to read is largely nonsense anyway. Has anyone here tried to read and understand a bill in it's actual legislated form? It's pretty damn hard, and the amount of footnotes, etc are incredible. (that's why these bills are 1,000 pages. It's not that there are 1,000 new pages of regulations, it's that it takes that much paper to correlate it with other laws, etc.)

While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is another explosion of insanity from right wing crazies that read sections of the bill they don't understand. This is how we got 'death panels' and the like.

So I guess bad on the Democrats for promising something and not doing it, but it was a dumb promise to make to begin with.
What happened to principles? Simply because I won't be able to understand the bill does not give the legislature an excuse to hide it from me. "Trust me, this is the best bill we can come up with, check it out for yourself" gives me a lot more confidence than, "Trust me, this is the best bill we can come up with. Trust me." What is possibly bad about letting people read it? The only rationale for this nonsense is that the truth of the matter is that the bill contains something very, very bad.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
I think I understand why they don't want to be held to 72 hours. If they need to act earlier or change their minds on when a bill is to go to the floor, this is just extra red tape in the way of a normal process.
No bill will go into effect until January 1 at the earliest, so the whole "we're in a hurry!" bit just doesn't hold water.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: brencat
Originally posted by: eskimospy
While I appreciate people's desire to see the bill, and I also understand that the Democrats promised this, I think the entire idea is foolish. What's going to happen is an explosion of insanity from left wing loonies that read sections of the bill that don't conform to the liberal agenda. This is how we got chain migration and the like.
See what I did there??

This is not a Dem or Repub issue. This is about putting an end to BOTH parties slipping pork past our noses in that "obscure legaleeze" the bills are written in and in the process driving up deficits, entitlements, and ultimately taxes.

Posting it online will give the armies of bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates out there from BOTH sides to scrutinize and argue its merits. And give us the people a couple days warning to have a phone surge to our reps to support or reject it.

Yes and what you did there has nothing to do with why the Democrats aren't publishing the bill. Lord only knows how you got 'chain migration' out of this. Anyways, despite all the press that pork gets, it accounts for a tiny fraction of US federal spending. There are way more important things to worry about.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

so in your world its ok to throw a gazillion page bill out there just hours before its to be voted into law??? that just crazy man.

i see, we are all idiots and we should be good little sheep and trust politicians because they are experts. gotcha ya.

uh, yeah, the legislators are smart enough to figure it out in 10 minutes but we aren't...

eskimopie is crumbling into insanity as his little utopia he thought he was getting collapses...

 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
~~~ What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

This.

And most likely members of Congress have no idea what the final bill will look like at this time, anyway. There are literally hundreds of pieces of legislation, parts of which may be incorporated into the final bill. If the OP is interested go to THOMAS, type in 'health care' and read to his heart's content.

The same goes for the Washington Examiner and the Heritage Foundation, or any other single American. Are we really so lazy that we have to depend upon the media and political action groups for information and opinions to engage us? (Don't answer that.)

The process ain't pretty (or easy) --- never has been. There is a lot of arm twisting going on and deals being made. I'm guessing there are also some serious discussions going on between the Senate and House to avoid a protracted 'conference' on the final legislation.





 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
~~~ What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

This.

And most likely members of Congress have no idea what the final bill will look like at this time, anyway. There are literally hundreds of pieces of legislation, parts of which may be incorporated into the final bill. If the OP is interested go to THOMAS, type in 'health care' and read to his heart's content.

The same goes for the Washington Examiner and the Heritage Foundation, or any other American. Are we really so lazy that we have to depend upon the media and political action groups for information and opinions to engage us? (Don't answer that.)

The process ain't pretty (or easy) --- never has been. There is a lot of arm twisting going on and deals being made. I'm guessing there are also some serious discussions going on between the Senate and House to avoid a protracted 'conference' on the final legislation.

heavy sigh... then they should break it down into some number of separate bills that can be understood...

y'all are really pushing it with your "just let them do what they want and we should be happy with it" attitude...
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The only rationale for this nonsense is that the truth of the matter is that the bill contains something very, very bad.

While I lean towards disclosure in this case, intent to deceive is not the "only rationale." Statutory language is dense and prone to misinterpretation, EX. A: Death Panels. Even after the bill provision was fully explained people STILL didn't understand it. Throwing open bills to a public untrained in statutory deconstruction will only confuse and anger them even more. Shit reads like stereo instructions. We elect representatives to vote for us. Don't like their votes, then next time vote for someone else. That's how this country works. I think it's perfectly plausible to argue that having an open discussion with uninformed and untrained people on the nitty gritty details of such legislation can and will lead to deadlock and partisan hyperventilating. Plus, these pols have a very good idea what their constituents want, it's why they keep getting reelected, so opening the bill to "discussion" will not cause reps to change their votes.

Still, I think it'd be ok if they did post the bills online. Lord knows no one would read them anyway.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,743
54,757
136
It's difficult to decide among the blizzard of retarded responses who to call an idiot first.

I never said that legislators should only have 10 minutes to look at a bill.
I never said we should just trust politicians because they are experts.

I never said that there shouldn't be time to peruse the bill before it was voted on, simply that posting it up on the internet for people who style themselves to be legislative geniuses to foam and froth incorrectly about isn't very important to me because I find it highly unlikely anything useful will come of it, and highly likely that a lot of stupid things will come of it.

If this board shows anything, it shows just how retarded the average American is when it comes to politics and what they think they know. I mean this place is supposed to represent those who are at least nominally interested in politics and the sheer amount of misinformation and absolute absurdity that is taken as 'fact' here is mind boggling. There are already plenty of groups both partisan and nonpartisan who evaluate the language in these bills to give you an understanding of what it's actually about, and despite everyone's high level of legal and policy knowledge you're almost certain to miss the various interactions between statutes or misunderstand the language, nefarious or not.

What I'm worried about has been shown to be absolutely true in the last few months as people have repeatedly been whipped into a frenzy about things that aren't even in the bills under consideration.

I'm not against releasing the bills to the general public, I just don't care much either way. There are plenty of other groups that fulfill the function of what you're going for.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
Originally posted by: cubeless
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
~~~ What will most likely happen is that bloggers, think-tanks, and advocates will intentionally distort parts of the bill to achieve their ends, leading to an explosion of crazy by ignorant people who are being led by the nose. This has already happened repeatedly in relation to this exact bill under consideration. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people finding out what's in the bill, everyone should, but posting it online in that form to people without the resources or expertise to understand it will lead to nothing useful.

This.

And most likely members of Congress have no idea what the final bill will look like at this time, anyway. There are literally hundreds of pieces of legislation, parts of which may be incorporated into the final bill. If the OP is interested go to THOMAS, type in 'health care' and read to his heart's content.

The same goes for the Washington Examiner and the Heritage Foundation, or any other American. Are we really so lazy that we have to depend upon the media and political action groups for information and opinions to engage us? (Don't answer that.)

The process ain't pretty (or easy) --- never has been. There is a lot of arm twisting going on and deals being made. I'm guessing there are also some serious discussions going on between the Senate and House to avoid a protracted 'conference' on the final legislation.

heavy sigh... then they should break it down into some number of separate bills that can be understood...

y'all are really pushing it with your "just let them do what they want and we should be happy with it" attitude...

Do I have to hold your hand through every step?

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