oil spill cleanup efforts are a disorganized mess

[Darwin333]

Gosh --- it's interesting how you reguritate all that BLAME without a single mention of BP.

Being an asshole, complete with Ranting & Raging for weeks, does not make your 'perspective' any more lucid (or correct).

Feel free to hold your breath and stomp your feet as much as you wish.

The point remains: Your narrow focus (which properly aligns with your pointy little head), name-calling and 'blame gaming' Obama is not part of the solution.

Jindal may feel free to drop raw sludge into the GoM as far as I'm concerned; and the ultimate responsibility for the cost will reside with the taxpayers of Loosianna unless BP approves of the activities.

You will then be free to pursue BP in Federal court for reimbursement of those state expenses.

Need I point out that Exxon was initially required to pay out $5 billion for the Valdez incident, and after 19 years of appeals the settlement was reduced to $500 million?

So. Rage on, Fool. The dime belongs to the taxpayers of the state of Loosianna. Don't come running to Uncle Sugar when a court of competent jurisdiction tells you to pay up.

Jindal can drop sand bags out of his butt from Texas to Key West.

And in six weeks when tropical storm Igor blows crude over the tops of those berms you can blame Obama for that, too (without, of course, mentioning any responsibility of British Petroleum).

--

You really think that this isn't gonna cost Unlce Sugar? Lol, and you have the nerve to call me a fool.

So since that hurricane is going to wash that oil over everything we do then hell why do anything at all? BP, the Feds, State and local government should just save all their money and stop wasting it on this cleanup and mitigation stuff eh? Brilliant idea.

Awfully funny how you claim its a "state" problem when the oil is spewing out of a Federally leased well.

You further show your ignorance by stating "Jindal can drop sand bags out of his butt from Texas to Key West. " No, he can't. Not without Federal approval that came right after the oil got into the marshes we wanted to protect with them. The Feds are currently threatening Florida with Federal charges if they do what you just said Jindal can do. I won't even bother addressing the rest of the bullshit in your post because thats all it is, bullshit.

Even Obama himself is going to say you are full of shit tonight on live TV from the Oval Office. He is going to say that the the assets and the full power of the federal government has been brought to bear here . He is also going to say how he promises the Federal government will ensure all of the people and states affected are "made whole".

Does it piss you off that Obama is going to give us a crapton of taxpayer dollars?

And for the record, I have blamed BP since day 1 but after a month of them proving they aren't going to do shit about mitigating the damages, cleaning up the spill, constant lies, and utter confusion it is pointless to count on them for anything. That is when the Federal Government is supposed to come in and protect the security and interests of the nation.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I am on the boats and actually helping clean this mess up 3 days a week on my own dime. I am at the docks another 2 days, I live where the oil first washed ashore, I have a camp in Grand Isle, I see the cleanup effort daily and speak with the parish President of Plaquemines damn near every time I go to Buras/Venice to get on a boat and the President of Lafitte once a week or so. So yes, I do know what I am talking about because I am smack dab in the middle of the clusterfuck and have been since it started. I also lived through Katrina, Rita and Gustav. I was back in Jefferson Parish and parts of Orleans 2 1/2 days after the storm. I saw first hand how leadership can change a situation almost instantly. Do a little reading about General Honore and you might have just a tiny bit of perspective.

I have done more to actually help than you and probably everybody you know combined. I invite you to drag ass down here and I will get you on a boat if you care to help. I'd be happy to show you the clusterfuck in real life and let ya get your hands dirty a bit. I actually put my money, my time and a whole lot of sweat where my mouth is.

This is ALL about leadership. Period. Still to this very day no one has any idea who is really in charge and no one has the ability and the balls to cut through the red tape bureaucratic bullshit to get things done. You can say whatever ignorant crap you wish but it does not change the above facts.

Respect to you sir...

 

[Patranus]

Its nice to see Bobby Jindal tell the Obama administration/the EPA to shove it.

(the governor only has himself to blame for the lack of leadership)

 

[theeedude]

us liberals would like our big government to do so, thanks :thumbsup:

I didn't vote for Sarah Palin for a reason.

No, no, it's OK, we don't need big government, just pretend it's a BP disaster in the ocean, and separate state disasters on the shore and let private sector and the states take care of the problem. We are talking about southern conservative states that like small federal government and states rights anyways, who are we to disagree?

 

[Genx87]

No, no, it's OK, we don't need big government, just pretend it's a BP disaster in the ocean, and separate state disasters on the shore and let private sector and the states take care of the problem. We are talking about southern conservative states that like small federal government and states rights anyways, who are we to disagree?

Heyheybooboo is that you?

 

[Darwin333]

Yes, I would like more if you got it. You're about the only guy on here that has some substance to the Obama criticism.

I originally took the position that the Obama hate was completely unfounded (and for good reason), but your first-hand experience is good to know. I'm still not convinced that all of the Obama criticism is deserved, but it is becoming clear that he is deserving of some in regards to the clean up effort.

I hate red tape just as much as the next guy.

That is another frustrating part of this whole deal. Half of the "Obama criticism" is purely political just as most of the people defending him are doing it for purely political reasons. Hell, some people on the right seem downright happy about the spill so they can try to make this "Obama's Katrina". This shouldn't be a political issue. This should be an issue that we can all agree on what needs to happen but neither side can resist the opportunity to make the other side look bad. So everyone is playing CYA and things simply don't get done because of it.

I really don't care about politics at this point in time. I care about saving one of the most diverse wildlife preserves in the country, thousands of peoples livelihoods, economies of entire states, estuaries that provide a large portion of this countries seafood, industry that provides 1/3 of this countries energy from oil, NG, and other petrochemicals, etc...

I gave Obama a pass for the first month or so but how long does BP have to fuckup and flat out lie to him and this country before we take the cleanup effort out of their hands? How many times do we have to beg the government to speed up the process of issuing permits so that we can protect our own coasts? How long do we have to wait for the EPA to even respond to companies requesting testing and approval on products that have been proven to work and already used by the US Government? How long do we have to wait to get tankers out here sucking the oil out of the water (I guarantee this happens eventually because it works extremely well and doesn't screw up the water even worse), how long do we have to wait for boom that has been sitting in a warehouse somewhere for who knows how long? It goes on and on, we know that BP isn't going to do it at this point and the states don't have access to the sort of funds the Feds do AND we still need Federal approval to implement most of the plans. If that approval takes weeks when we had days to act, who should we blame? I guarantee if Jindal "just does it" like most of us want him to there will be people right here calling for Federal charges filed against him.

IMO, Obama's biggest mistake was not sending a real leader for a point man. A single guy that has a big ole set of brass balls and is willing and able to make decisions or get the people that need to make them on the phone in hours. I keep referencing General Honore during Katrina, the situation on the ground improved dramatically after he arrived.

 

[nageov3t]

I'm all for blaming BP for the spill and hell, even throw Bush under the bus for loosening regulations.

however, directing a cleanup process that involves multiple states and federal organizations is something that should absolutely, 100% be directed from the top down. if there's a leadership deficit in directing the cleanup efforts, I don't see how the blame could be placed somewhere other than the Obama administration's reluctance to direct and take ownership of the problem.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Hmm yeh, just like blaming bush for 9/11 after he inherited a CIA weakened by 8 years of the Clinton administration. And that was only 9 months after taking office. If it was bushies fault after 9 months this is sure as hell obamas fault after nearly twice the time in office.

There are a few points I'd like to make about your comment.

First off, it's BP's fault first and foremost. There are others at fault in allowing this to happen. It's the MMS secondly for being rubber stampers. It's Obama's fault for allowing the MMS to continue the same way they did under Bush (which is another issue entirely). It's the federal governments fault for not having prepared after Ixtoc 1, nor after Exxon (which BP was a major part of that disaster also).

Second, 9/11 was a terrorist act. That in and of itself is much harder to prepare for than an industrial accident (or negligence). BP should have had plans in place (which they basically created bs plans just to file the paperwork), the MMS should have actually reviewed this stuff before giving approval to drill, and the federal government (DHS, FEMA, Coast Guard, I don't care pick some federal body) should have had plans in place for this.

IMHO, BP should have been tasked solely with the pipe itself (and given a deadline of when it had to be done by or face heavy fines/penalties along with having the federal government take over using their equipment to fix it with the Army engineering corps), and focused all it's efforts into sealing the leak. The federal government should have dealt with the bulk of the cleanup in open waters (using the Coast Guard, or whatever resources it has available). The states should have worked with the local counties/cities to develop plans for their specific area along with assistance from the federal government. Everything would have should have been under the direction of an "oil spill director czar" who has the authority to do what needs to be done, and does it when it needs ot be done. They would basically have a blank check for cleanup efforts, and that check would have BP's name on it with 3% interest fee. Not wait for approval from whoever. This situation is one where response time is critical, and any delays can have major consequences. This should have been done within a week of the spill ideally, but 2 weeks would have been a bit more realistic.

 

[JSt0rm]

I think the fed should do more and bill bp for everything.

The problem probably is this...

If the federal government steps up to the plate and starts cleaning up the oil will they then become liable for some lawsuits resulting from the clean up? Will bp be in a position to sue the federal government because they didn't clean it up well enough and bp will argue that if bp was in charge they could have? By leaving it completely up to bp don't we also leave them completely exposed to all liability?

Clean it up yes but this was never going to go well. We knew this from day one.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

I think the fed should do more and bill bp for everything.

The problem probably is this...

If the federal government steps up to the plate and starts cleaning up the oil will they then become liable for some lawsuits resulting from the clean up? Will bp be in a position to sue the federal government because they didn't clean it up well enough and bp will argue that if bp was in charge they could have? By leaving it completely up to bp don't we also leave them completely exposed to all liability?

Clean it up yes but this was never going to go well. We knew this from day one.

The counter-arguement to that is either:
A) "The situation required actions be taken quickly to minimize as much of the damages as possible as a result from the spill cause by BP/Transocean/Halliburton. We were responding in the interests of the whole, and any personal damages resulting from this spill are BP's responsibility."

or, the better answer

B) Prior to acting, issue an executive order (or something) that states "We are not liable for any damages resulting from the measures required to cleanup this spill. We are cleaning this up to protect the Gulf region, and any liability still remains with the source of the leak."

At least something along those lines. Those were meant for conceptual ideas.

EDIT: From Rudder's link below:

(4) Exemption from liability
(A) A person is not liable for removal costs or damages which result from actions taken or omitted to be taken in the course of rendering care, assistance, or advice consistent with the National Contingency Plan or as otherwise directed by the President relating to a discharge or a substantial threat of a discharge of oil or a hazardous substance.

So, in other words the President could have directed this and they would not be held liable for any damages resulting from cleanup.

 

[rudder]

us liberals would like our big government to do so, thanks :thumbsup:

I didn't vote for Sarah Palin for a reason.

Even if we did not have a government that oversteps their bounds above and beyond the constitution... the President would still be required to " direct all Federal, State, and private actions to remove the discharge or to mitigate or prevent the threat of the discharge" if that discharge were to affect public health or welfare of the United States.

Source USC Title 33 Chapter 26 Subchapter III, Sec. 1321 c(2).

I know you would like the government to wipe your ass and burp you after dinner... but these actions needed to clean up this mess do not constitute "big government."

 

[rudder]

I think the fed should do more and bill bp for everything.

The problem probably is this...

If the federal government steps up to the plate and starts cleaning up the oil will they then become liable for some lawsuits resulting from the clean up? Will bp be in a position to sue the federal government because they didn't clean it up well enough and bp will argue that if bp was in charge they could have? By leaving it completely up to bp don't we also leave them completely exposed to all liability?

Clean it up yes but this was never going to go well. We knew this from day one.

Nope, that is not the problem. Cleanup operations are still FUBARed. Here read up...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/usc_sec_33_00001321----000-.html

The Feds can clean up and not be liable.

 

[Genx87]

I think the fed should do more and bill bp for everything.

The problem probably is this...

If the federal government steps up to the plate and starts cleaning up the oil will they then become liable for some lawsuits resulting from the clean up? Will bp be in a position to sue the federal government because they didn't clean it up well enough and bp will argue that if bp was in charge they could have? By leaving it completely up to bp don't we also leave them completely exposed to all liability?

Clean it up yes but this was never going to go well. We knew this from day one.

What ground would BP have for suing the feds? What grounds would anybody have for suing the feds for cleaning something up? Unless the govt act negligent. Like say running over ones house with a tractor. I dont see how cleaning up this mess opens up the govt to be sued.

 

[IGBT]

Words of a true patriot. God damned nature trying to take away our freedoms.

the eco-KOOKS want to take your freedoms away. you won't have a pot to piss in because the eco-KOOKS will declare you a bio hazard. and their willing elected accomplices will enact laws to make it happen. just like they pushed the oil rigs into deeper, risky waters.

 

[Lemon law]

you think that the federal government shouldn't be the ones taking a leadership role in directing a multi-state disaster cleanup of unprecedented proportions?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They already are, in term of the US coast Guard, and the admiral in charge has almost dictatorial powers in some areas and is almost powerless in other areas. So as he co-ordinates the efforts of various Federal agencies, State government, and local governments, he has little authority over, he must tread soft and build consensus.
But given this is by far, the biggest oil disaster this nation has ever faced, its clear we need better enabling legislation in place or we will get the same pathetic responses next time.

And this has to be a death blow to anyone with the quaint notion that private industry is better than government in building cost effective bureaucracies. And to some extent we have a prefect BP big business model of what happens to a bureaucracies based on the criteria saving money. And as we see, BP still responds that way on the input and output side. Even in advance of the required congressional hearings, its clear this entire mess was created by BP trading cost savings for drilling safety. An untested blow out preventer, improper cementing of the drilling rig, ignoring safety warnings every step of the way to minimize per day drilling cost, just to save 20 or 30 million bucks at best. BP gambled and now they lost big time, and its gonna cost them 3 billion at least.

But the BP cost containment strategy is the same on the output side as well, minimize what goes out. Hire incompetent PR types to direct the cleanup efforts, and a result they do not even know what safety gear the people they hire will need. Then make the claim forms 67 pages long to make submitting claims of damage difficult to comply with, expensive for BP to process, and with hold information from outside experts to estimate what is really needed. It will not do anything other than make the BP share of the cleanup cheaper, in fact it will make it far more expensive, but at least they slow down what BP has pay out in the initial short run.

In my mind we have to blame GWB&co far more then Obama, because it was GWB&co who did so much to dismantle prior better regulation that might have prevented this in the first place, but now that the milk is already spilled, there ain't no way to unspill it. And the other question is, even as we must fault Obama for not getting past regulations back, given how hard its proving to do anything in Washington, given the GOP tyranny of the minority, how can we blame just Obama?

So fasten your seat belt folks, as we see just how long and bad this oil spill will get, as we kiss a good part of our Gulf coast goodbye despite everyone's best effort to save it.

 

[nick1985]

In my mind we have to blame GWB&co

Oh for Christ sake...


/facepalm

 

[nageov3t]

But given this is by far, the biggest oil disaster this nation has ever faced, its clear we need better enabling legislation in place or we will get the same pathetic responses next time.

what legislative restriction is holding the administration's efforts back?

 

[Darwin333]

So fasten your seat belt folks, as we see just how long and bad this oil spill will get, as we kiss a good part of our Gulf coast goodbye despite everyone's best effort to save it.

You are dead wrong about that part. Neither BP nor the government has put forth their best efforts. Your assertion that the CG not having "dictator power" over the local governments being a part of the problem is also completely incorrect, they can't even figure out how to coordinate within their own (federal) agencies with even the slightest bit of competence. Most of the local government officials don't even know who is really in charge BP or the Feds but they do know that they can't implement their own plans until they get approval from the Feds, that dictator you were speaking of evidently can't cut through that red tape. If they decide to "just do it" they are threatened with Federal charges...

Those are the facts, and the facts do not back up your post regardless of which party you want to protect and which party you want to blame.

 

[ProfJohn]

We also didn't accept help from other nations after Katrina.

Want some more straw??

 

[WHAMPOM]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/15/science/earth/15cleanup.html


it's a long article and I'm not going to post the entire thing, but it seems to suggest that there's a real deficit in strong, centralized leadership to oversee the multi-state disaster recovery efforts... you know, the kind of thing that even libertarians might expect the federal government to handle.

Loki, some rise to positions of greatness, some just to incompetence. BP Pres, time to get your shit together and stop the ad hoc nonsence.

 

[WHAMPOM]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They already are, in term of the US coast Guard, and the admiral in charge has almost dictatorial powers in some areas and is almost powerless in other areas. So as he co-ordinates the efforts of various Federal agencies, State government, and local governments, he has little authority over, he must tread soft and build consensus.
But given this is by far, the biggest oil disaster this nation has ever faced, its clear we need better enabling legislation in place or we will get the same pathetic responses next time.

And this has to be a death blow to anyone with the quaint notion that private industry is better than government in building cost effective bureaucracies. And to some extent we have a prefect BP big business model of what happens to a bureaucracies based on the criteria saving money. And as we see, BP still responds that way on the input and output side. Even in advance of the required congressional hearings, its clear this entire mess was created by BP trading cost savings for drilling safety. An untested blow out preventer, improper cementing of the drilling rig, ignoring safety warnings every step of the way to minimize per day drilling cost, just to save 20 or 30 million bucks at best. BP gambled and now they lost big time, and its gonna cost them 3 billion at least.

But the BP cost containment strategy is the same on the output side as well, minimize what goes out. Hire incompetent PR types to direct the cleanup efforts, and a result they do not even know what safety gear the people they hire will need. Then make the claim forms 67 pages long to make submitting claims of damage difficult to comply with, expensive for BP to process, and with hold information from outside experts to estimate what is really needed. It will not do anything other than make the BP share of the cleanup cheaper, in fact it will make it far more expensive, but at least they slow down what BP has pay out in the initial short run.

In my mind we have to blame GWB&co far more then Obama, because it was GWB&co who did so much to dismantle prior better regulation that might have prevented this in the first place, but now that the milk is already spilled, there ain't no way to unspill it. And the other question is, even as we must fault Obama for not getting past regulations back, given how hard its proving to do anything in Washington, given the GOP tyranny of the minority, how can we blame just Obama?

So fasten your seat belt folks, as we see just how long and bad this oil spill will get, as we kiss a good part of our Gulf coast goodbye despite everyone's best effort to save it.

Canadian regulation: drill relief wells same time as the main one. Could there be a simpler safety precaution?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Hayward, just another name for Brownie.

 

[rudder]

In my mind we have to blame GWB&co far more then Obama, because it was GWB&co who did so much to dismantle prior better regulation that might have prevented this in the first place, but now that the milk is already spilled, there ain't no way to unspill it. And the other question is, even as we must fault Obama for not getting past regulations back, given how hard its proving to do anything in Washington, given the GOP tyranny of the minority, how can we blame just Obama?

Shows how small your mind is. obama was minding the store.. there were plenty of needed regulations in place... but...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37337727/ns/gulf_oil_spill/

The ones tasked to monitor and fine BP if needed were kind of busy with other activities.

Play the stupid blame game all you want... fact is regulations are in place as are greedy workers.

 

[Lemon law]

And while this forum and Nero fiddles, Rome burns.

There is no fun in flushing the entire gulf coast of the USA down the toilet, but we the brave and clueless, can sugar coat our losses in good ole feel good partisan spin.

As an American, it makes me so proud of America that I could puke.

 

[rudder]

They already are, in term of the US coast Guard, and the admiral in charge has almost dictatorial powers in some areas and is almost powerless in other areas. So as he co-ordinates the efforts of various Federal agencies, State government, and local governments, he has little authority over, he must tread soft and build consensus.
But given this is by far, the biggest oil disaster this nation has ever faced, its clear we need better enabling legislation in place or we will get the same pathetic responses next time.

Hello McFly... there is enabling legislation already on the books...

Please read the United States Code Title 33 Chapter 26 Subchapter III, Sec. 1321 c(2).

The President has the power already to " direct all Federal, State, and private actions to remove the discharge or to mitigate or prevent the threat of the discharge" if that discharge were to affect public health or welfare of the United States.

There just isn't much directing going on. There is no need to tread softly. Instead of playing golf, obama needs to get some shit going.