This is an old myth that began as a bit of truth. First, everything you know about oil is wrong.
Ok, maybe not everything, but much of the "conventional wisdom" about oil dates from 25+ years ago, including the "3 month/3,000 mile" rule, and has simply 'stuck' all these years; though both synthetic and conventional oils have substantially improved over the same time. Today's multigrade conventional oils EXCEED the capabilities of first generation synthetics.
First generation synthetics were found to be problematic in a few ways including reactivity with certain engine sealant/gasket compositions. Further, they were not readily compatible with conventional oils. They have long since worked these problems out.
Unlike transmission fluid, engine oil whether synthetic or conventional doesn't possess the solvent action to 'clean' concentrations of varnish or other gunk that has already formed on engine parts. Detergents and other additives are designed to inhibit such formations from occurring in the first place, but they don't 'clean' existing formations.
It certainly can 'do no harm' by changing your oil every 3,000 miles religiously, but that said, neither can it do any harm to change your oil every 1,000 miles, except harm to your wallet.
anybody ever used XR-4 oil? they sell it here at the Napa stores, supposedly it's made by petro-canada and the newest stuff is SL-rated.
If you can find it's specifications online, or otherwise.. and they are better than the ones shown here(scroll down to the bottom), then yes.. I would recomend it.
Most people use Mobil 1 synthetic because it's easy to get. But there are better oils. Much better.
One of you should take the test yourself. Put your "favorite" oil into your car, and run it for 3,000 miles. Drain it out, take a sample.. and have it analyzed. Fill your car with AMSOil synthetic, and drive it for 6,000 miles. Don't drain it all out, but take a sample.. let it drain for a second, take a sample, and put the drain plug back in.. lol. Have the oil analyzed, and it will have a much better analysis than the conventional oil.
Always take oil samples when your car is warm, the hotter the better. When you switch from a conventional oil to a synthetic, I recomend that you change the oil again realitivly soon. maybe around 8,000 miles. This will help flush out any contaminiation that was left from the previous oil. If you do the above mentioned test, it will be a little "dirtier" than if you flushed it out as mentiond above first.
I change my oil every 4,000 kms with Mobil1 Tri-Synthetic. I want to make sure the engine is protected.
Hamburgerpimp
Diamond Member
- Aug 15, 2000
- 7,464
- 1
- 76
"In mission critical applications, like jet airplane engines, do you think they use regular dino juice? Absolutely not.. "
Since auto's dont have GE turbofans that spin at increidable speeds or have to operate at 35,000 ft
this grade of lubrication would be overkill..It cost me 8 BUCKS to change oil/filter at home every 2-3
months and I KNOW all the by-products are GONE!!
Since auto's dont have GE turbofans that spin at increidable speeds or have to operate at 35,000 ft
this grade of lubrication would be overkill..It cost me 8 BUCKS to change oil/filter at home every 2-3
months and I KNOW all the by-products are GONE!!
Well, in fact, "dino juice" is used overwhelmingly in mission critical applications like aviation piston engines, including rotary and turbocharged applications, where synthetic is the standard only for turbines due to the temperature and rotational extremes (10,000RPM is considered "idling" speed).
There is no such thing as "lubrication overkill", especially when it comes something like an engine. You need every bit of protection you can get. They use synthetic oil for a reason, and that reason is that it is better.
Like I said, there's nothing wrong with changing dead dino juice every 3,000 miles. You probably should, just to be safe. I'm saying that you don't need to, and shouldn't be using, petrolium based oils. If you care about the longevity of your engine, it's just not worth it. It's a mind trick.. even though the oil is cheaper per quart, you're not saving any money.
There are times, of course, when petrolium based oil is desirable, like when breaking in an engine. Not because the synthetic won't let the engine break in, as many believe.. but just because it's uneconomical. You're supposed to change the oil after the first 500 miles, or whatever it is.. It wouldn't make any sense to use expensive synthetic, just to throw it away.
I'm breaking in my new Honda GXH50 using cheap-ass MotoTech 10W-30 oil. Specified breakin is 10 hours, but I'm going to go for 20.. just to be thorough.
Oil changes every 3 hours during that period. It's a little extreme.. but it isn't going to hurt anything, and since the engine only holds 0.26 quarts... it's cheap. She has 18.2 hours on her now. After another 1.8 hours, I'll drain the oil once more.. and put in the AMSOil Formula 4-Stroke 0W-40
No, that's not a typo.. 0W-40.
Excellent cold fluidity, which is very important to a small, splash-lubricated engine.As for synthetic blends.. Shrug. I've never used them. You can't really lump them all together... A very good quality conventional oil would probably be better than a lower quality synthetic blend. I say that if you're going to worry about it in the first place, you may as well go all out. The best way to find out about your oil is to inquire and find their published specifications, and compare.
It's like buying the best CPU, video card, or sound card, speakers, etc.. for your system. You don't want to skimp on those things.. You really shouldn't want to skimp on engine oil. Using cheap oil in your 20,000$ car to save a few bucks is very foolish when you think about it. Your oil is the only thing keeping your pistons from becomming one with the block.
The old saying "You get what you pay for" holds true for engine oil. Are you sure? I've certainly never heard this. Synthetic oils were first designed with mission critical engines in mind. A quick search for "aviation piston oil" does indeed reveal some purely mineral based oils, but most all of them are at least semi-synthetic. They also appear to be higher quality than normal engine oil, so that may be.
Hmm, I didn't even see this post before.. :Q lol..
Well, I don't really know what to say. Basically you're saying that until the parts expand from warming up, they make noise. Maybe you should have used a thicker synthetic oil? I don't know. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really sure that it matters. After the engine became warm, the tapping would go away? Your lifters may tap at startup, but at least your mains and rings are lubricated.
The Four Ball Wear Test is one of the tests they use to give an oil it's classification. It is very much a valid test. You just cannot tell me that synthetic oils aren't superior to petroleum based oils in every aspect. There is no denying this. It's irrefutable fact. All you have to do is look at the specifications. I challenge you to find me a petroleum based oil of any viscosity that is better than this 10W-30 oil based on technical specifications alone.
I suppose I could maybe agree that synthetics aren't suitable for every single application. But they are not only suitable, they're desirable, and preferred.. for the vast majority of them.
Eli, I got 180,000 miles out of a '71 matador with "dino" oil and trust me, those were some really
cheaply made cars. I'm just saying that some cars (ie: low compression) dont really strain modern
oils that much. What DOES affect ALL oils is short trips were the motor never gets up to proper
temp. and condensation and acids STAY in the crankcase insted of getting cooked out by heat..
cheaply made cars. I'm just saying that some cars (ie: low compression) dont really strain modern
oils that much. What DOES affect ALL oils is short trips were the motor never gets up to proper
temp. and condensation and acids STAY in the crankcase insted of getting cooked out by heat..
Yeah, I'm sure. I don't know what your search revealed, but check out the product lines of the major aviation fuel and lubrication companies like Shell, Texaco, Exxon, Mobil, etc. These major brands are the most widely used products in the industry.
Most of their piston aircraft engine lubricants are straight petroleum/mineral based single-weight or ashless dispersant oils. They certainly have mineral/synthetic blends, but these are still primarily petroleum base stocks blended with synthetic modifiers and additive packages.
Its not that they're necessarily 'higher quality' than a quality automotive oil such as Penzoil or Valvoline, its that they're blended and formulated for different needs and conditions.
BTW, I'm a former Amsoil dealer who did a lot of research and concluded that today's conventional oils are SO GOOD that I could no longer justify to myself the "synthetic" sales pitch, so how could I justify it to others? I let my Amsoil dealer license lapse.
For a new car, when is the right time to put in synthetic oil? We've changed the first oil at 1500KM already, yes too soon but I wanted it done. Do I have to wait for break-in period to be out of the way (10,000KM ??) before we do the change?
Please recommend.
Please recommend.
Interesting.. About the aviation lubrication.
Exactly!
Remember, we're talking about the myth of the 3,000 mile oil change. What you just said explains it very well. That very well may be true.. regarding today's conventional oils... However, There are very few oil manufacturers that have an extended drain interval recomendation. Redline is like 18,000. AMSOil is 25,000 - 35,000. What do Valvoline and Penzoil recomend? AMSOil and some other oils are specifically blended and formulated for the need of the extended oil drain interval. It just so happens that when you do this, you improve the overall quality of the oil also.I don't really mean to make it sound like a sales pitch.. But I've found what AMSOil says to be very true, heh. It is true, you know, they were the first in synthetic lubrication.
When breaking in an engine, I don't think you can be too cautious. Here's a good, but involved, way of breaking an engine in:
The best way is to use a compression gauge and measure compression in each cylinder when the engine is brand new. Start the engine and allow it to warm up. If you check it when the engine is warm, be sure to always check it when the engine is warm.Measure each cylinder and record the values. Begin the breakin period. You can be as conservative as your wallet allows during the breakin period. When you decide to change the oil for the first time, measure the compression again. Record the values. Put new oil in it, and continue. Next time you change it, do the same thing. Keep this up until the values stop rising. Your rings are now seated.
You can start anytime you want. Your car only has about 900 of the 6200 recomended breakin miles. When the readings level off, you know your engine is broken in.
Now, regarding your question. It doesen't matter what oil you use to break your engine in. It will breakin with any oil. but.. because of this fact, it doesen't make any sense to use expensive synthetic oil that's designed to go many thousands of miles per oil change when you're just going to have to change and replace it every few hundred miles.
Muadib
Lifer
- May 30, 2000
- 18,127
- 912
- 126
I switched after my 1st oil change, which was at 7500 miles. Here is a good article that says anytime after 6000 miles is good.
Muadib
Lifer
- May 30, 2000
- 18,127
- 912
- 126
I strongly diagree. A synthetic oil will keep an engine clean, and sludge free. Take a look at the test this guy did. This is the main reason older cars leak when they switch to synthetics.
I switched after my 1st oil change, which was at 7500 miles. Here is a good article that says anytime after 6000 miles is good.
Hmm, now I'm really confused.
This article states that you shouldn't (!) use syntetics in a turbocharged engine. My Audi mechanic said it was fine (I have a 2001 S4)...precisely for the heat issues from the twin turbos. So now what? And what interval should we be changing?
Hmm, now I'm really confused.
This article states that you shouldn't (!) use syntetics in a turbocharged engine. My Audi mechanic said it was fine (I have a 2001 S4)...precisely for the heat issues from the twin turbos. So now what? And what interval should we be changing?
Originally posted by: cipher00
I switched after my 1st oil change, which was at 7500 miles. Here is a good article that says anytime after 6000 miles is good.
Hmm, now I'm really confused.
This article states that you shouldn't (!) use syntetics in a turbocharged engine. My Audi mechanic said it was fine (I have a 2001 S4)...precisely for the heat issues from the twin turbos. So now what? And what interval should we be changing?
See. there is so much misinformation out there about oil it's not even funny. Everybody has their own "facts".
You absolutely should use synthetic oil in turbocharged engines! If anything, its those kind of high-heat, high-load applications that need synthetic oil. You people that are saying "it's not worth it" aren't listening. It most certainly is worth it. Didn't you read my first post? Do I have to say it again? Extended drain interval oil is expensive, yes. But it's cheaper than buying cheap oil, and changing it every 3,000 miles, which doesen't even give you the same level of protection as the synthetic oil. Then you get into the issue of gas milage, future engine repair bills...
It is not worth it to use conventional oil, especially in a new engine, when you look at the whole picture. Your car is a very expensive piece of equipment. It is expensive to fix. In my opinion, you would be out of your mind to use cheap oil just to save yourself a few bucks on the cost of the oil itself. When you work it out, you find that you're not saving any money at all in the long run.
Please read AMSOil's warranty statements.
You absolutely should use synthetic oil in turbocharged engines! If anything, its those kind of high-heat, high-load applications that need synthetic oil.
Oh, ok, that's what I thought...
My mechanic puts in Castrol or Mobil-1. Are you suggesting that these need more frequent changes (like 3,000) rather than AMSOIL? (I could ask my mechanic to switch, or take AMSOIL in if I can figure out what grade I need...)
BTW, great post.
Oh, ok, that's what I thought...
My mechanic puts in Castrol or Mobil-1. Are you suggesting that these need more frequent changes (like 3,000) rather than AMSOIL? (I could ask my mechanic to switch, or take AMSOIL in if I can figure out what grade I need...)
BTW, great post.
Originally posted by: cipher00
You absolutely should use synthetic oil in turbocharged engines! If anything, its those kind of high-heat, high-load applications that need synthetic oil.
Oh, ok, that's what I thought...
My mechanic puts in Castrol or Mobil-1. Are you suggesting that these need more frequent changes (like 3,000) rather than AMSOIL? (I could ask my mechanic to switch, or take AMSOIL in if I can figure out what grade I need...)
BTW, great post.
Well, yes, they probably do need more frequent changes. I would go by what the manufacturer of the oil recomends. I don't think any current off the shelf oil, synthetic or otherwise, has an extended drain interval recomendation.:Q If you bought AMSOil, your mechanic would be happy to fill your car with it, I am sure.
AMSOil has tried to get the quick-lube places to use their oil. The fact is, they don't want to. They see revenue from the 3,000 mile oil change. Why would they shoot themselves in the foot by telling their regular 3k customers that they don't need to come back for 25,000 miles?
I also cannot stress enough that your oil filter is a very, very important element. You can use the best oil in the world, and if your filter is garbage, it isn't going to matter. Check these oil filters out.. They have a 12,500 mile change interval. So you can save money on oil filters, while cleaning your oil better, too.
I know it seems funny to keep plugging AMSOil like I have been, but I don't do it just because I like them. I don't work for them. I don't sell their products. I'm not out to make them a buck. I'm just a satisifed customer, trying to stop misinformation and spread what I've learned in my research.
The best way to prevent premature engine failure is prevention. The best methods of prevention are quality oil, quality oil filter and a quality air filter. These things work together to keep your engine clean and running trouble free. These are the last 3 things you should be skimping on to save money.
Look at AMSOil's line of air filters, if your interested. I don't know much about their oil and air filters, there very well may be better. But they're certainly better than the cheap ones at Napa.
for those who want something to read about
oil change DIY
and read about the
story behind 5W-20 and 5W-30 switch (For newer Ford and 2001/02 Honda owner)
more direct link to the issue
oil change DIY
and read about the
story behind 5W-20 and 5W-30 switch (For newer Ford and 2001/02 Honda owner)
more direct link to the issue
Those are good links. Read them. That thread is very informative. Pay particular attention to the Federal Magnusson Moss Act, and the laws behind it.
Thanks lsman.
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