Oh, What a tangled web we weave - Hamas leader...

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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very insightful article. To be taken with a grain of salt for sure!
But nonetheless interesting! It`s always interesting to see what transpires behind closed doors!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100930/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_intifada_revisited

Hamas leader: Arafat urged attacks on Israel

RAMALLAH, West Bank – It has been 10 years since Palestinians began an uprising that swept away peace talks, triggered a ferocious reaction by the Jewish state and left thousands dead on both sides.

Exactly why it happened just as Palestinian statehood seemed attainable is a mystery, fed by conspiracy theories and competing narratives from across the political spectrum.

This week comes an intriguing twist: One of the leading figures in Hamas seems to confirm that Yasser Arafat was playing a double game — encouraging Islamic militants to attack inside Israel while publicly insisting he was trying to stop the violence.


Some suggest Hamas strongman Mahmoud Zahar may be exaggerating, but his comments could help shape the legacy of the Palestinian leader. To many in Israel and elsewhere, the late Arafat remains an arch-terrorist who fooled the world into considering him a peacemaker. Others lionize him as an iconic — if flawed — visionary who dedicated his life to forging demoralized Palestinians into a determined, proud nation.

As head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Arafat struck a historic deal with Israeli Premier Yitzhak Rabin and then-Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in 1993, under which the Palestinians received autonomous control over parts of the West Bank and Gaza, territories Israel captured in the 1967 war. The three shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.

The so-called Oslo accords were an interim arrangement, and seven years later another Israeli leader, Ehud Barak, was offering Arafat statehood on the majority of the two territories. But Barak's proposed borders — and especially his formula for sharing Jerusalem and refusal to allow Palestinian refugees to return to Israel — fell short of Palestinian expectations.

Now, Zahar has been quoted by Hamas-affiliated newspapers as telling Gaza City students that when Arafat realized negotiations were failing, he "recommended to Hamas to carry out a number of military operations in the heart of the Hebrew state."

A student leader confirmed the reports of the closed-door session published Thursday in the Al Risala and Felesteen newspapers. The reports were not denied by Zahar, who could not be reached for comment by The Associated Press. Other Hamas leaders refused to discuss the statements on the record, and several privately expressed displeasure but did not deny them.

It was not clear when Arafat's supposed urgings took place. But Zahar's statement were made Tuesday — the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 28, 2000, eruption of violence that became known as the second intifada. The first intifada broke out in December 1987, when the West Bank and Gaza were under full military occupation.

On the surface, this second uprising grew out of Palestinian protests against a visit to a contested Jerusalem shrine by Israeli nationalist Ariel Sharon. Known to Muslims as Haram as-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount, the hilltop compound is a flash point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Home to the Al Aqsa Mosque and gold-capped Dome of the Rock, it is Islam's third holiest shrine. Jews revere it as the location of the two biblical Jewish temples, making it Judaism's holiest site.

According to this version, it was Israel's deadly overreaction to those protests — six Palestinians were killed on the first day along with an Israeli officer — that led to a spiral of violence neither Arafat nor Barak, who lost elections to Sharon a few months later, could tame.

Like many Israelis, Sharon's longtime spokesman Raanan Gissin believes the Palestinians used the Sharon visit as a pretext to launch a revolt and said Israeli intelligence at the time confirmed Zahar's statement.

"What Zahar said is true," Gissin told The Associated Press.

Israeli "intelligence knew that Arafat wanted to initiate violence because talks failed over Jerusalem," he said. "Everything was in place for Arafat (and even) if Sharon wouldn't have gone there, something else would have triggered it."

Veteran Arafat aide and peace negotiator Nabil Shaath rejected Zahar's assertions.

"Arafat refused to surrender to the Israeli and American positions, but only supported nonviolent resistance," he said. "I witnessed many instances in which he tried to stop military confrontations."

Others say reality was not clear-cut, and use careful, oblique terms.

In a 2007 memoir, Arafat aide Marwan Kanafani wrote: "After the start of the intifada, (Arafat) provided assistance for all the organizations that participated in the uprising, including Hamas."

Within days of the start of fighting, Arafat's Fatah formed a violent offshoot, the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, whose gunmen carried out scores of shooting attacks on Israelis, mainly in the West Bank. Militants later said they were indirectly bankrolled by Arafat, but did not receive orders from him.

Hamas, Arafat's main political rival, launched the first of what would be scores of intifada suicide bombings on the first day of 2001.

Arafat and his aides usually distanced themselves from attacks in public, occasionally issuing condemnations which were received with increasing skepticism by Israelis.

Some suspect Zahar may be exaggerating, perhaps trying to suggest there was consensus about a strategy that many Palestinians now believe to have backfired.

"From what I knew of Yasser Arafat, he was basically a terrorist, but he was careful not to give direct orders, because he knew we were on his tail," said Uzi Dayan, a former general and national security adviser to two Israeli premiers during the uprising.

Avi Issacharov, an Israeli journalist who co-authored a book about the uprising, went further: "Arafat wasn't in favor of suicide attacks. He didn't demand, he didn't order, he didn't recommend" them.

Either way, by the end of 2006, more than 4,200 Palestinians and more than 1,100 Israelis, most victims of suicide attacks, were dead.

The intifada waned after Arafat's death in November 2004, and the election of Mahmoud Abbas, an outspoken opponent of violence, as his successor.

___
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Lemon Law responds saying Israel is breaking the law, Palestine is beter
JediYoda responds saying Palestine is violent, Israel is better
Lemon Law counters by saying Israel is breaking the law, Palestine is beter
JediYoda counters by saying Palestine is violent, Israel is better
Lemon Law counters by saying Israel is breaking the law, Palestine is beter
JediYoda counters by saying Palestine is violent, Israel is better
Lemon Law counters by saying Israel is breaking the law, Palestine is beter
JediYoda counters by saying Palestine is violent, Israel is better

There I just played out this thread for y'all entertainment ;)
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
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I don't know why this is considered "news" - The PLO have always done this.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Part of the problem with Arifat was any broadbased leadership. The PLO became Arifat, Arifat, and Arifat.

The came the historic peace conference where Arifat, under international pressure, refused to sign over the right to return.

After that Arifat became a spent force, as a bobby prize he ruled the West Bank and Gaza, but became corrupt, building personal wealth. In terms of the OP charge that Arifar, after recognizing the Israeli right to exist, dabbled in terrorism, that is almost certainly true.

But years after the death of Arifat, we still don't have a just mid-east peace, and I think its only partly due to bad Israeli and Palestinian leadership. And the end of the day I think its going to take international pressure to make a just mid-east peace possible.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Define JUST.
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Maybe a very good question but two points to make.

1. What we have is the very definition of unjust. In 1948 the Palestinians owned over half of what became Israel, and now end up with basically nothing. And no Israel did not achieve that outcome in any just manner, and any Israel claim they stole it fair and square will not fly.

2. The Palestinians have been basically punished for the deeds of the surrounding Arab states, and now its a basic game of NIMBY on what to do with 3 million people. Israel, especially before it gained military hegemony had to thread carefully in terms of being brutal to Arab nationals inside its borders, lest they motivate the Arab States into more wars, but were basically free to steal from the Palestinians and did, not on an individual guilt basis, but as illegal collective punishment that is now hereditary. But if Lebanon, Syria, Jordon, and Egypt do not want the Palestinians, it then leaves Israel stuck with responsibility for the problem because the Palestinian were originally residents of what became Israel. Why should it be anything but an Israeli responsibility?

Beyond that a few other things to say. (a) The world is finally moving to address the Palestinian problem rather than keep kicking the can down the road. (b) Israel by UN doctrine cannot own the gains of the 1967&73 wars but negotiated settlements may allow Israel to retain some of the gains. (c) In the 43 years since 1973, a total framework for a two State solution is already worked out, a few details remain, but that is why Obama has taken the position it can become final with in a year. If both Israel and the Palestinians both sign the deal, that would become your definition of a JUST peace. (d) There are only two ways forward to resolving the Palestinian issue, either a two state solution or a South Africa type solution where Israel is forced to assimilate the Palestinians with full voting rights. The Israel risk if they keep settling on disputed lands is that a two State solution will become no longer possible making assimilating the Palestinians with voting rights the only option.

The Israeli position is that the world will let them get away with their gains forever and now the question is will the world put an end to that, either in 2010 or very soon, by what ever gradually escalating means needed or not? As we can see, Israel has already resisted the requests of the UN, the US, The EU, Russia and nearly everyone else by refusing to extend the settlement freeze. Its hard to believe that Israel can get away with saying no to the whole world. But Bozo Netanyuhu is betting the farm Israel can.
 
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EagleKeeper

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As stated in the other tread, the freeze was symbolic and the Pals ignored it until the last minute. The objective world has seen it. That is why there is no real outcry agasint the freeze termination.

And while the Pals may have lost land; they NEVER asked for statehood in 40 years; but were determined to follow in the flawed Arab logic of the destruction of Israel.
While the Arab nations attacked the Israeli state, the Pals chose to attack the Israeli civilian population both within Israel and abroad.

Israel is not going to forget such actions. Whether they are willing to forgive such will be determined - much will be based on Palestinian actions both from Gaza and the West Bank.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The Common Courtesy position is, "Israel is not going to forget such actions. Whether they are willing to forgive such will be determined - much will be based on Palestinian actions both from Gaza and the West Bank.

When the reality may be Israel screwed its own pooch by refusing to extend the settlement freeze. We don't know which YET.

Its now up to the world community and action, the time for puffing various revisionist histories are over.

Time and EVENTS will tell, not various pissing contests.
 

EagleKeeper

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Then stop making predictions that are Pal biased and have been proved at this pont to be failures
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Then stop making predictions that are Pal biased and have been proved at this pont to be failures
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To some extent your comments are based on Israeli might makes right. The point is and remains the Palestinians will not be able to liberate themselves any more than the American slaves could or the blacks in South Africa could.

Its going to be external forces that demand that fair play for the Palestinians, and now those external forces are really starting to act. I do not expect pro-Israeli fan clubbers to ever see those slow and gradual shift of world opinions, but the entire past decade has not exactly been a shining endorsement of Israeli good behavior.

The entire world is beginning to see Israel as the root cause of mid-east tensions, and as an entity unwilling to be a peace partner to solve mid-east issues. Now that Israel has refused to extend its settlement freeze, the fat is in the fire.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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The entire world is beginning to see Israel as the root cause of mid-east tensions, and as an entity unwilling to be a peace partner to solve mid-east issues. Now that Israel has refused to extend its settlement freeze, the fat is in the fire.

Congratulations. You have become the entire world.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
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I don't know why this is considered "news" - The PLO have always done this.
Agree!

It is unlike the Israelis government that hasn't paying lip service to the world and the Palestinian then turn around and stab everyone in the back. IMHO, both sides commits atrocities & deceits, and aren't owning up to their responsible.

And if would be much more constructive if both sides praises each other virtue instead of spouting hates and chicaneries.

[add]
Could it be that the US invaded the wrong countries (Afghanistan & Iraq) to put down the quibbling?
 
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EagleKeeper

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The entire world is beginning to see Israel as the root cause of mid-east tensions, and as an entity unwilling to be a peace partner to solve mid-east issues. Now that Israel has refused to extend its settlement freeze, the fat is in the fire.

Still waiting for the world wide embargo that has been promised now that Israel refused to EXTEND the freeze and the Pals are threatening to walk out.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Still waiting for the embargo that has been promised not that Israel refused to EXTEND the freeze and the Pals are threatening to walk out.

The end of the so-called "freeze" was intentionally timed to coincide with the US midterm elections. Nothing will happen at all until after the election, bet on that, AIPAC being what it is... Politically, the Pals only chance is with the Dems, given that Neocon and Israelis settler goals are largely congruent.

If the Pals walk out, it'll weaken the Obama Admin. If they stay, they and the Israelis can talk about the weather, I guess... until after the election.

I wouldn't put it past the Israelis to announce new settlement plans so as to do just that, put the Obama admin in a bind. It wouldn't really be very smart, because the Admin is the sole determiner of US actions in the UN. If the Israelis screw 'em over, well, turnabout is fair play, particularly if the Obama Admin gets the idea that they're lame ducks...

If sanctions were tough on the Iraqis and the Iranians, they'd be even tougher on the Israelis, whose life blood is trade...
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Still waiting for the embargo that has been promised not that Israel refused to EXTEND the freeze and the Pals are threatening to walk out.
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And we will not see anything definitive for at least 2 weeks yet, do you really think change happens over night?

As it is, Abbas has conferred with the PLO today and they recommend withdrawal, next Abbas will confer with the Arab League 10/8, and meanwhile the USA, The UN, the EU, and other parties will try to find ways around the impasse, but one option will be for the UN to recognize a Palestinian State.

But right now, no one, meaning NO ONE, seems to be supporting the Israeli position.
 

EagleKeeper

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And what position is being supported.
The Pals have demonstrated that they are not capable of standing on their own politically. They have to run to the Arab league for approval.
If the Pals pull out from the peace talks; it is again them that are failing. Israel is at the table.

Not one peep has been issued about an embargo against Israel.
Not one Naval vessel has been sent to escort ships attemptign to deliver goods to Gaza.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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If the Pals pull out from the peace talks; it is again them that are failing. Israel is at the table.

The Israelis are currently offering nothing other than more of the same. I think that's fairly obvious, particularly with Netanyahu as the head of the Govt. Talk is just cover for deeds. Israeli expansion will make a 2 state solution impossible if it continues- what then?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Patience Common Courtesy, no one can predict exactly what will happen, but when it happens it will not be good for the current Israeli position and we will all know it when we see it.

Its even possible the world will demand the talks go on, but with a demand certain terms favorable to the Palestinians happen and a settlement is reached in a year.
If Israel wants to build more housing that will belong to Palestinians within a year, maybe the world will happily let them.
 

EagleKeeper

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The Israelis are currently offering nothing other than more of the same. I think that's fairly obvious, particularly with Netanyahu as the head of the Govt. Talk is just cover for deeds. Israeli expansion will make a 2 state solution impossible if it continues- what then?

And what are the Pals offering? Nothing. Not even peace and an acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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And what are the Pals offering? Nothing. Not even peace and an acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist.

Sigh. The whole idea of a 2 state solution necessarily acknowledges the existence of the other state. Which is what's supposedly on the table, kinda, except that the Israelis apparently aren't really willing to let that happen. They like it the way it is, nibbling off pieces of the territory they've occupied to serve their own population's desires. And they'll talk, sure, but they'll stop short of any truly feasible solution for the Pals, other than continued subjugation and occupation.

Deeds, CC, not words, are the true measure of any situation, and the Israelis deeds are not those of a party seeking to compromise but rather to deceive, as they've done all along. Not that the Pals are much better, if at all, but the Israelis are the ones in control, occupying territory they tacitly acknowledge isn't theirs- otherwise, why talk at all? Can any reasonable solution at all be reached w/o Israeli concessions?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Patience Common Courtesy, no one can predict exactly what will happen, but when it happens it will not be good for the current Israeli position and we will all know it when we see it.

Its even possible the world will demand the talks go on, but with a demand certain terms favorable to the Palestinians happen and a settlement is reached in a year.
If Israel wants to build more housing that will belong to Palestinians within a year, maybe the world will happily let them.

And precisely who is going to stick their nose into this mess and make anyone do anything? Not the US, not the Russians, not the Chinese. Even our politicians aren't that stupid. Maybe the UN will send in the army it doesn't have with the approval it won't get? This isn't fantasy league diplomacy. No one will put your wishes into action.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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And precisely who is going to stick their nose into this mess and make anyone do anything? Not the US, not the Russians, not the Chinese. Even our politicians aren't that stupid. Maybe the UN will send in the army it doesn't have with the approval it won't get? This isn't fantasy league diplomacy. No one will put your wishes into action.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tell that to Peter Botha who thought the same.