Oh no, this is horrible news: Turkey-EU talks in jeopardy

[Turkish]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09/30/turkey.eu/index.html

Friday, September 30, 2005 Posted: 1118 GMT (1918 HKT)

Erdogan: "If the EU is not a Christian club, this has to be proven."

Plans for Turkey to start EU membership talks next week were under threat following a move by Austria that could block negotiations.

Turkey said its delegation would not attend Monday's opening talks in Luxembourg until the European Union's position was clarified.

"No one expects us to go to Luxembourg before seeing the negotiation framework document," Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said.

"Of course there is a possibility that negotiations will not start," The Associated Press quoted Gul as saying, adding "there are intense efforts" to bridge differences.

"Everyone knows Turkey's goals and where Turkey wants to go with these negotiations," he said, referring to Ankara's position that it will not accept anything short of full membership and expects to start negotiations without new conditions.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said it was "not possible for us to accept anything outside of" previous agreements with respect to membership talks.

At a meeting of EU ambassadors in Brussels on Thursday, Austria held to its demand that Turkey be offered an explicit alternative to full EU membership if Ankara fails to meet membership criteria or if the EU cannot absorb the predominantly Muslim country, Reuters reported diplomats as saying.

Austria has pushed for a privileged partnership between the EU and Turkey, saying Austrians and others across Europe do not support full membership. Ankara vehemently rejects such a partnership.

Britain, which holds the rotating EU presidency, called an emergency foreign ministers' meeting in Luxembourg on Sunday evening to try to overcome the differences.

British Europe Minister Douglas Alexander told the BBC: "There will be an intensive period of discussion both on Sunday and also on Monday and I believe that we will be able to move forward, although there is clearly a lot of work still to be done."

Germany, meanwhile, reminded its EU partners of their unanimous decision last December to begin membership talks with Turkey.

"We think it is important that the EU sends a clear signal to Turkey," German Foreign Ministry spokesman Jens Ploetner told a news conference in Berlin.

Earlier, Austrian Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel said European politicians should learn from the failed EU constitution votes in France and the Netherlands.

"Democracy means you have to listen to the demos," he told the International Herald Tribune. Schuessel's conservative party is battling to avert defeat in regional elections in the province of Styria on Sunday.

Opinion polls show 80 percent of Austrians and large numbers of other western Europeans oppose full EU membership for Turkey.

Also Thursday, the European Parliament passed a non-binding resolution calling on Turkey to recognize the 1915 killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide.

Gul did not comment directly on the vote, but he said there were conditions Turkey could never accept and that EU members were well aware of this, Reuters reported.

Austria takes over the EU presidency from Britain in January, and its stance could jeopardize its relations with the United States, which strongly backs Turkey's accession process, Reuters said..

Schuessel also insisted in newspaper interviews that the EU open talks immediately with Croatia, Austria's historic ally and Roman Catholic neighbor. He accused European government of applying double standards to Turkey and Croatia.

"If we trust Turkey to make further progress, we should trust Croatia too ... It is in Europe's best interest to start negotiations with Croatia immediately," he told the Financial Times. "It is not fair to leave Croatia in an eternal waiting room."

Those negotiations were due to have started in March but have been frozen because of Croatia's failure so far to satisfy a U.N. war crimes tribunal of its cooperation.

Erdogan said it was up to the EU to demonstrate its good faith, underlining the strategic benefits to Europe of embracing his country.

"If the EU is not a Christian club, this has to be proven," the state Anatolian news agency quoted the Turkish premier as saying.

"What do you gain by adding 99 percent Muslim Turkey to the EU? You gain a bridge between the EU and the 1.5 billion-strong Islamic world. An alliance of civilizations will start."

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

Oh noes, this is horrible :roll:

Screw you EU. I much rather have the U.S. as my strongest ally rather than your racist asses. I am not claiming that Turkey deserves to get into EU, but neither do I accept their ridiculously unfair preconditions that they didn't ask from the 10 countries they let in last May. So screw you.

And our politicians are dumb. What's their love with EU, last polls show that the support for EU membership has dropped to 40% within Turkish public.

Bah.

 

[BarneyFife]

Turkey has blood on their hands from the way the treat the Kurds to the genocide of the Armenians. It would be a total disgrace if they were let in the EU. Do you really think western countries want more Muslims running freely in their countries? They already have enough trouble with the illegal immigrants from Africa and the middle east. Please no.

 

[halik]

There are couple economics criteria that countries have to meet before they can join the eu. Theres a cap on how big their budget deficit can be relative to GDP and their national debt relative to GDP. I think that might be the problem they're talking about.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Turkey has blood on their hands from the way the treat the Kurds to the genocide of the Armenians. It would be a total disgrace if they were let in the EU. Do you really think western countries want more Muslims running freely in their countries? They already have enough trouble with the illegal immigrants from Africa and the middle east. Please no.

Congrats on being so ignorant and just repeating what you read on the media. I have Kurdish heritage and I am not treated any different from any other Turk. Don't believe everything you read.

Halik, if I remember correctly, 3 of the nations admitted last May had larger % deficits. Can't remember the names, we'll have to look up on that.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Turkish

Screw you EU. I much rather have the U.S. as my strongest ally rather than your racist asses. I am not claiming that Turkey deserves to get into EU, but neither do I accept their ridiculously unfair preconditions that they didn't ask from the 10 countries they let in last May. So screw you.

And our politicians are dumb. What's their love with EU, last polls show that the support for EU membership has dropped to 40% within Turkish public.

Bah.

1. I wasn't aware that the US was offering Turkey to become the 51st state, along with billion and billions in free development money...
2. Unfair? Hardly. Turkey isn't like the 10 just accepted. Kurdish treatment, troubles with Cyprus, denial of genocide (including the recent court order PROHIBITING A CONFERENCE).
3. That's because the politicians want Turkey to become a developed nation and they know the way to that is through the EU. Even the 'poorest' EU15 member (Greece) is 3x richer than Turkey, and we both know that it wasn't that long ago (20-25years perhaps?) that they were on par...

 

[f95toli]

The OP also failed to mention the fact that 24 out of 25 countries DO want Turkey to become a full member.
Right now Turkey isn't helping either, refusing to recognize one of the member countries (Cyprus) isn't a good way to start the negotiations.

That said, I do hope Turkey becomes a member eventually.

 

[heartsurgeon]

Turkey has blood on their hands from the way the treat the Kurds to the genocide of the Armenians. It would be a total disgrace if they were let in the EU.

hmmm...you mean the same EU that has Germany as a main member? Didn't they try genocide on the Jews and the Gypsies....i believe they also threw in 20,000,000 dead russians for good measure...your argument isn't even internal consistent.

personally, i don't think the Turks should waste their time with the EU. Any "membership" the EU offers will come with endless humiliating strings attached that will make Turkey a second class member at best. Turkey will not be accepted as an equal member because it is so populace that it will upset the balance of power...currently France and Germany (there is an unholy alliance!) rule the EU. Turkey would be in a position as a full member, of picking one other large power to "partner" with, and could dominate EU politics due to population numbers. France and Germany will let in innumerable smaller countries that cannot upset their hold on power, but Turkey is to big for them to deal with....

imho.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

Turkey has blood on their hands from the way the treat the Kurds to the genocide of the Armenians. It would be a total disgrace if they were let in the EU.

hmmm...you mean the same EU that has Germany as a main member? Didn't they try genocide on the Jews and the Gypsies....i believe they also threw in 20,000,000 dead russians for good measure...your argument isn't even internal consistent.

personally, i don't think the Turks should waste their time with the EU. Any "membership" the EU offers will come with endless humiliating strings attached that will make Turkey a second class member at best. Turkey will not be accepted as an equal member because it is so populace that it will upset the balance of power...currently France and Germany (there is an unholy alliance!) rule the EU. Turkey would be in a position as a full member, of picking one other large power to "partner" with, and could dominate EU politics due to population numbers. France and Germany will let in innumerable smaller countries that cannot upset their hold on power, but Turkey is to big for them to deal with....

imho.

Wait, is that the real Germany that has gone to great lengths to repent for their past, or is it the heartsurgeon Germany, where people not only deny any genocide or wrongdoing, but harrass poeple who dare talk about it?

 

[piasabird]

So did Germany have to admit they committed genocide?

Did Italy have to make an admission about how the sides with Hitler during WWII?

Did Switzerland have to acknowledge they stole money from the Jews from the Germans?

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Turkish

Screw you EU. I much rather have the U.S. as my strongest ally rather than your racist asses. I am not claiming that Turkey deserves to get into EU, but neither do I accept their ridiculously unfair preconditions that they didn't ask from the 10 countries they let in last May. So screw you.

And our politicians are dumb. What's their love with EU, last polls show that the support for EU membership has dropped to 40% within Turkish public.

Bah.

1. I wasn't aware that the US was offering Turkey to become the 51st state, along with billion and billions in free development money...
2. Unfair? Hardly. Turkey isn't like the 10 just accepted. Kurdish treatment, troubles with Cyprus, denial of genocide (including the recent court order PROHIBITING A CONFERENCE).
3. That's because the politicians want Turkey to become a developed nation and they know the way to that is through the EU. Even the 'poorest' EU15 member (Greece) is 3x richer than Turkey, and we both know that it wasn't that long ago (20-25years perhaps?) that they were on par...

1. Ummm, I said ally, not 51st state.
2. As I said, there is no mistreatment of Kurdish people in Turkey, I am attesting that as a Kurdish Turk, don't mummble what you read on media. Cyprus problem will never go as the EU wants it. Turkey agreed to an U.N. approved plan, Cyprus didn't. And about the genocide, there is no evidence for such genocide except for a book written in 1950s. Don't google for it and bring me up a website, show me something credible. It was war, they killed Turks, Turks killed Armenians. That's about it.
3. Are you serious about this? Are you an American? Cause if you are an American, you probably will say yo believe in democracy. Is it democratic to do what only 40% (and that falling rapidly) agrees on? Switzerland continuously votes on EU membership and the public denies it, so the politicians don't go for it. Simple.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So did Germany have to admit they committed genocide?

Did Italy have to make an admission about how the sides with Hitler during WWII?

Did Switzerland have to acknowledge they stole money from the Jews from the Germans?

The problem is, nobody is denying that Armenians were killed in war. Turkey is denying that it was a genocide. In summary, the Armenians sided with the British (who were occupying Turkey at time of war) and offered them food, shelter, manpower in return for an Armenian state in Anatolia and the Turks basically fought Brits & Armenians and killed whoever was against them to get back their country. Its funny how that book written in the 50s (which Armenians base most of their claims) also mentions the death of 600,000+ Turks but not a whole lot of western media mention that. Its simple though, Armenian lobby is very strong in the U.S. and Europe (second strongest lobby after Jewish) and they basically push for whatever they want. And oh personally, I don't have anything against Armenians...

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Turkish

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Turkish

Screw you EU. I much rather have the U.S. as my strongest ally rather than your racist asses. I am not claiming that Turkey deserves to get into EU, but neither do I accept their ridiculously unfair preconditions that they didn't ask from the 10 countries they let in last May. So screw you.

And our politicians are dumb. What's their love with EU, last polls show that the support for EU membership has dropped to 40% within Turkish public.

Bah.

1. I wasn't aware that the US was offering Turkey to become the 51st state, along with billion and billions in free development money...
2. Unfair? Hardly. Turkey isn't like the 10 just accepted. Kurdish treatment, troubles with Cyprus, denial of genocide (including the recent court order PROHIBITING A CONFERENCE).
3. That's because the politicians want Turkey to become a developed nation and they know the way to that is through the EU. Even the 'poorest' EU15 member (Greece) is 3x richer than Turkey, and we both know that it wasn't that long ago (20-25years perhaps?) that they were on par...

1. Ummm, I said ally, not 51st state.
2. As I said, there is no mistreatment of Kurdish people in Turkey, I am attesting that as a Kurdish Turk, don't mummble what you read on media. Cyprus problem will never go as the EU wants it. Turkey agreed to an U.N. approved plan, Cyprus didn't. And about the genocide, there is no evidence for such genocide except for a book written in 1950s. Don't google for it and bring me up a website, show me something credible. It was war, they killed Turks, Turks killed Armenians. That's about it.
3. Are you serious about this? Are you an American? Cause if you are an American, you probably will say yo believe in democracy. Is it democratic to do what only 40% (and that falling rapidly) agrees on? Switzerland continuously votes on EU membership and the public denies it, so the politicians don't go for it. Simple.

1. Yes, but the EU isn't offering you alliance, but "statehood". Needless to say, something the US will never offer you. And don't you think the criteria for "statehood" should be considerably higher than giving aid and trade incentives?
2. Better tell AI and every other human rights association to stop writing about these things then, since everything is a Ok, no different from kurdish treatment in the US or Canada...
3. The treaty can and SHOULD be put to referendum before its approved. However, no governement would be able to function if they reversed their policies every time public opinion crossed 50%. Plus, if they didn't want it, why have they been trying to attain it for decades?

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Turkish

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Turkish

Screw you EU. I much rather have the U.S. as my strongest ally rather than your racist asses. I am not claiming that Turkey deserves to get into EU, but neither do I accept their ridiculously unfair preconditions that they didn't ask from the 10 countries they let in last May. So screw you.

And our politicians are dumb. What's their love with EU, last polls show that the support for EU membership has dropped to 40% within Turkish public.

Bah.

1. I wasn't aware that the US was offering Turkey to become the 51st state, along with billion and billions in free development money...
2. Unfair? Hardly. Turkey isn't like the 10 just accepted. Kurdish treatment, troubles with Cyprus, denial of genocide (including the recent court order PROHIBITING A CONFERENCE).
3. That's because the politicians want Turkey to become a developed nation and they know the way to that is through the EU. Even the 'poorest' EU15 member (Greece) is 3x richer than Turkey, and we both know that it wasn't that long ago (20-25years perhaps?) that they were on par...

1. Ummm, I said ally, not 51st state.
2. As I said, there is no mistreatment of Kurdish people in Turkey, I am attesting that as a Kurdish Turk, don't mummble what you read on media. Cyprus problem will never go as the EU wants it. Turkey agreed to an U.N. approved plan, Cyprus didn't. And about the genocide, there is no evidence for such genocide except for a book written in 1950s. Don't google for it and bring me up a website, show me something credible. It was war, they killed Turks, Turks killed Armenians. That's about it.
3. Are you serious about this? Are you an American? Cause if you are an American, you probably will say yo believe in democracy. Is it democratic to do what only 40% (and that falling rapidly) agrees on? Switzerland continuously votes on EU membership and the public denies it, so the politicians don't go for it. Simple.

1. Yes, but the EU isn't offering you alliance, but "statehood". Needless to say, something the US will never offer you. And don't you think the criteria for "statehood" should be considerably higher than giving aid and trade incentives?
2. Better tell AI and every other human rights association to stop writing about these things then, since everything is a Ok, no different from kurdish treatment in the US or Canada...
3. The treaty can and SHOULD be put to referendum before its approved. However, no governement would be able to function if they reversed their policies every time public opinion crossed 50%. Plus, if they didn't want it, why have they been trying to attain it for decades?

1. Yes, but the term "statehood" is way too different when you consider it between the 2 perspectives: US and EU (ie. the U.S. army will defend a U.S. state if it was attacked by another nation, vs. the country itself will primarily defend its land, not the EU)
2. Well, they can come home and visit me. I'll show them personally. Also, these organizations' credibility is questionable. They are controlled, simply.
3. Well I don't think the government is planning a referendum. Your last sentence is seriously lacking opinion, they may have been trying to attain it for decades (in fact, if you read up on EU history, Turkey was offered to begin EU talks at the same time as Greece but our current politicians denied it as we had enough problems in Cyprus already, and Turkey was in a very nationalistic thinking point) but the point is, Turkish people supported EU membership for as long as I can remember, till EU began asking for things that they didn't ask from other countries. And this is the only time the public support for EU dropped below 50%. It was 90% couple years ago, 70% last year, 35-40% this year.

Either way, EU is a Christian club anyway and even if we joined eventually, no European would treat Turkish people as the citizen of an EU country. So hopefuly things go bad in the direction of membership.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
hmmm...you mean the same EU that has Germany as a main member? Didn't they try genocide on the Jews and the Gypsies....i believe they also threw in 20,000,000 dead russians for good measure...your argument isn't even internal consistent.

The difference is: In Turkey you get jailed for talking about the Armenian genocide. In Germany you risk to a prosecution if you deny the Holocaust.

Originally posted by: Turkish
2. As I said, there is no mistreatment of Kurdish people in Turkey, I am attesting that as a Kurdish Turk, don't mummble what you read on media. Cyprus problem will never go as the EU wants it. Turkey agreed to an U.N. approved plan, Cyprus didn't. And about the genocide, there is no evidence for such genocide except for a book written in 1950s. Don't google for it and bring me up a website, show me something credible. It was war, they killed Turks, Turks killed Armenians. That's about it.

Not everything is peace and happiness with the Kurd minority. Speaking of media, until recently, there weren't even telecasts in Kurdish language on national TV! To deny that the Kurdish minority isn't at least culturally oppressed is a lie.

The deportation and killing of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia was a systematic genocide. There is way more evidence than a book. The turkish denial of this is a consequence of wrong understood national pride. Turkey currently is fighting against nationalism (German Article because the OP probably knows this language). And this has nothing to do with "Armenian lobbies". Maybe, just maybe the UNO and the EU and many other nations are right with their genocide verdict?

----

That said, I'll try to write down my opinion a bit more systematically...

Turkey already profited in some ways from the EU option:
[*]The prison torture track record ameliorated while Turkey tried to comply with the European Human Right Convention
[*]The Turkish government finally allowed a binational historian commission about the Armenian genocide
[*]The relation between Turkey, Cyprus and Greece countinues to normalise

In my opinion, Turkey and the EU should countinue with their effort to unite, because
[*]I see the EU as a peace-propagating and economical institution, not a "cultural" or "religious" unity (or whichever blurry concept the Anti-Turkey politicians construct). The geographic "issue" is minor to me because I think every square meter of democratic land in Europe qualifies for EU participation.
[*]Well I'm not sure how much the inter-religion exchange would profit from a Turkey membership but the Turkish culture would be an interesting contribute and a diversivication for the rest of the EU. The EU easies personal travel (Schengen treaty) and this could lead to some exchange. (A part of Turkish culture already arrived in Germany but we're just scratching the surface if the average European only sees Turkish fast food shops 😉)

While this are some rather subjective reasons, there are objective ones, too.
[*]The EU would've successfully and hopefully permanently installed human rights and their ideals in Turkey
[*]In the long term, Turkey could become an interesting market, who knows.
[*]It would without doubt benefit Greece and Cyprus if the conflict with Turkey finally comes to an end

[*]EU membership would grant the Turkish people more rights
[*]EU membership allows Turkish people to work in every EU nation (afaik?)
[*]Turkey would recieve some support money from the EU to strengthen their economy
[*]As mentioned, the Cyprus differences could maybe be solved
[*]As an indirect consequence, the Turkish relationship to Armenia could become better

Many good points... But for some people on both sides political and ideological efforts are required. I hope Turkey becomes a EU member 🙂

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Turkish
1. Yes, but the term "statehood" is way too different when you consider it between the 2 perspectives: US and EU (ie. the U.S. army will defend a U.S. state if it was attacked by another nation, vs. the country itself will primarily defend its land, not the EU)
2. Well, they can come home and visit me. I'll show them personally. Also, these organizations' credibility is questionable. They are controlled, simply.
3. Well I don't think the government is planning a referendum. Your last sentence is seriously lacking opinion, they may have been trying to attain it for decades (in fact, if you read up on EU history, Turkey was offered to begin EU talks at the same time as Greece but our current politicians denied it as we had enough problems in Cyprus already, and Turkey was in a very nationalistic thinking point) but the point is, Turkish people supported EU membership for as long as I can remember, till EU began asking for things that they didn't ask from other countries. And this is the only time the public support for EU dropped below 50%. It was 90% couple years ago, 70% last year, 35-40% this year.

Either way, EU is a Christian club anyway and even if we joined eventually, no European would treat Turkish people as the citizen of an EU country. So hopefuly things go bad in the direction of membership.

1. Exactly my point. Now the question becomes, why then did you bring up American alliance in a thread about Turkish EU membership? My point is, americans don't expect much from Turkey, because they aren't offering much. That is not the case for the EU.
2. So you believe that Turks treat Kurds no differently than say, Americans treat Kurds? And that all evidence and reports to the contrary are a part of some human-rights conspiracy? Ok, I won't bother aruing this point with you anymore.
2. (formerly 3.) The government isn't planning a referendum because even if everything works out, ascention is still at least 15 years away. It would be up to the government during that time. It all boils down to this: Turkey can benefit tremendously from EU membership, but in order for that to happen, it must mend its ways and (unavoidably) swallow some pride. And if you think its bad now, its only getting started. When/if they start talks, things like this will be quite regular, even greater, since you'll basically have EU beaurocrats dictating a ton of laws with just a bit of room for negotiation. Of course, you can say FU to the EU and continue on as before, but judging from past performance, it won't go very well. Feel free to correct me, but its been only 4 years since the last economic meltdown and 8 years from the last coup...

 

[Turkish]

Hello chcarnage 🙂

I agree with your points on Kurdish rights, except, mistreatment of Kurdish people in their daily lives is a lie. Yes, Kurdish media wasn't allowed (the reason is another issue, it was due to PKK) and Kurdish wasn't tought in schools till recently. Those changed now, and I attest to the fact, Kurdish people live happily in Turkey. Those Kurdish people that you see on TV as protestors of the Turkish state are simply controlled by a greater force that takes advantage of these uneducated, unemployed people who basically do things not for their own good but rather others'.

About the Armenian Genocide, I cannot read the article, as I don't know German yet. I will be moving to Goettingen on October 4th and attend a German course part-time so I should learn it soon. Till then, can't read it 🙂 About evidence, how can you say its a systematic genocide when there are Armenian people that give interviews to the Turkish media everyday denying a genocide? What's really upsetting me is that these interviews get no attention from the western world. Just a few days ago a 98 year old Armenian woman talked on TV about how her grandparents basically allied with the British and went out of their way to crack down the by then Ottoman Empire and got killed at war. She said she grew up in eastern anatolia as an armenian woman, proud and happily. Also, what guarantee does the EU has for Turkey, lets say if Turkey admitted to such thing as in hopes for joining the EU?

About the European people's view on Turks: I cannot say much about it other than agreeing with them. If the Turks in Europe were the only Turks I saw, I would be against Turkey membership as well (I already am though). Those people were the uneducated, unemployed, fundamentalists that immigrated to Germany and others when those governments let them in for cheap labor. Dirt cheap labor. And they were forced to work long hours everyday (some guy I know told me his uncle immigrated to Germany and worked 50 hours a week at his consturction job but his pay was so low to keep his family's stomach full, he had to work 2 other jobs for another 40 hours a week). Some Europeans claim that these old Turkish men and women didn't integrate with the German social life at all. but how can you really integrate when you had to work 90 hours a week to keep your stomach full?

My main reason for being against the EU membership is how they treat Turkey so much differently than any other nation that wanted to join the EU. Otherwise, yeah, EU would be good for Turkey and EU (imo of course) as Turkey would get closer to the European standards of life and EU would have a huge market they could sell their products to.

I am also eager to hear EU's stance on Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania memberships (in the future). To be honest with you, a Turk has far more in common with a Sicilian than a Sicilian has with a Finnish, Sweedish, etc.

I also don't understand the European view of labour. Many fear that millions of Turks will flood to EU and make EU citizens' lifes miserable 😛 I don't agree with that, an EU membership will mean tens of times more investment in Turkey and many many more jobs for the Turks in their homeland. Its not very easy to move your life to another country, especially when you are looked down on. Many also feared Eastern European countries will flood millions to the west when they become EU members. I haven't seen anything in that direction. Is there such thing?

I seriously don't understand why so many Europeans are against a move which would help millions of people have better lives? Isn't that what the EU is all about?

Also, you are from Switzerland and you are not in Schengen 😛 I was hoping to visit Zurich, Bern, etc. during a weekend but bah, you require me to get a visa 🙂

P.S. excuse my horrible english, it gets worse when I type for a long time...

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Turkish
1. Yes, but the term "statehood" is way too different when you consider it between the 2 perspectives: US and EU (ie. the U.S. army will defend a U.S. state if it was attacked by another nation, vs. the country itself will primarily defend its land, not the EU)
2. Well, they can come home and visit me. I'll show them personally. Also, these organizations' credibility is questionable. They are controlled, simply.
3. Well I don't think the government is planning a referendum. Your last sentence is seriously lacking opinion, they may have been trying to attain it for decades (in fact, if you read up on EU history, Turkey was offered to begin EU talks at the same time as Greece but our current politicians denied it as we had enough problems in Cyprus already, and Turkey was in a very nationalistic thinking point) but the point is, Turkish people supported EU membership for as long as I can remember, till EU began asking for things that they didn't ask from other countries. And this is the only time the public support for EU dropped below 50%. It was 90% couple years ago, 70% last year, 35-40% this year.

Either way, EU is a Christian club anyway and even if we joined eventually, no European would treat Turkish people as the citizen of an EU country. So hopefuly things go bad in the direction of membership.

1. Exactly my point. Now the question becomes, why then did you bring up American alliance in a thread about Turkish EU membership? My point is, americans don't expect much from Turkey, because they aren't offering much. That is not the case for the EU.
2. So you believe that Turks treat Kurds no differently than say, Americans treat Kurds? And that all evidence and reports to the contrary are a part of some human-rights conspiracy? Ok, I won't bother aruing this point with you anymore.
2. (formerly 3.) The government isn't planning a referendum because even if everything works out, ascention is still at least 15 years away. It would be up to the government during that time. It all boils down to this: Turkey can benefit tremendously from EU membership, but in order for that to happen, it must mend its ways and (unavoidably) swallow some pride. And if you think its bad now, its only getting started. When/if they start talks, things like this will be quite regular, even greater, since you'll basically have EU beaurocrats dictating a ton of laws with just a bit of room for negotiation. Of course, you can say FU to the EU and continue on as before, but judging from past performance, it won't go very well. Feel free to correct me, but its been only 4 years since the last economic meltdown and 8 years from the last coup...

1. forget about it than.
2. why? you should come to turkey and see it yourself then. my life is no different than any other turk.
3. i am not denying past economic performance but that's past now. economic growth and income are triple what it was before, and turkey is going in good direction. are you saying that turkey has to join the EU in order to survive in this world?

 

[Turkish]

What European citizens and politicians alike need to fully understand is that an agreement between a community of nations and a candidate country is a document that deserves to be respected. In December 2004 the EU committed itself to commencing membership negotiations with Turkey in the light of Turkey's recent headway in improving its human rights record. For the EU to violate the terms of the agreement that it itself signed in the name of pandering to popular prejudice represents a violation not just of good faith but also of the very values that the EU represents.
Buffalo, USA

 

[ZeGermans]

turkish, I agree with most of your points. Just out of curiousity, do you own a kebap stand? Cause those things are rock! (I just got done being in austria for 2 months)

 

[Zebo]

Who want's a turkey, yet another a broke backwater? I don't blame them-- East germany was hard enough to deal with plus you got big time terror concerns with the turks. EU should admit member that have somthing to contribute not leeches.

Meh Germans are pretty stupid though with thier guilt complex and all and will probably lead the way. The time before last when I was in germany I did'nt even recognise the place.. Looked like turkey. Even the mayor of frankfurt was turkish. Heavily iniltrated and mainly whats contributing to Germanys problems of high unemployment and welfare sucking

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
turkish, I agree with most of your points. Just out of curiousity, do you own a kebap stand? Cause those things are rock! (I just got done being in austria for 2 months)

lol no, i actually just graduated from college, going to germany in a few days to simply learn german, then thinking of going to italy to learn italian, and then russia to learn russian. maybe china sometime in the future to learn chinese 😀 i sure am thankful for many turks in germany though, i'll be visiting their kebab stands a lot 😀

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Turkish
3. i am not denying past economic performance but that's past now. economic growth and income are triple what it was before, and turkey is going in good direction. are you saying that turkey has to join the EU in order to survive in this world?

Turkey's had 4 good years, that's it. Why do you think that it is now somehow radically different from before? They've been democratic, capitalistic and allied to the US for over half a century, why are they still below the level of most ex-communist republics? EU membership will force a great number of economic, social and political changes in Turkey, which will help it to finally develop properly. Without the EU that may or may not happen. That is all.

 

[CanOWorms]

Since when has the EU cared about genocide and crimes against humanity? The EU is the organization that refused to call what's happening in Darfur a genocide, ignored the Erased in Slovenia, member countries such as France organized genocides (such as in Rwanda). Some of the countries even pass laws to glorify genocide and stress the positive aspects of it in history courses. The British even celebrate their genocidal Empire. They even let a genocide happen on their own continent.

 

[chcarnage]

Hi there 🙂

The living conditions of the Kurd minority in all probability becomes better these days but I really hesitate to call them Turkish average. I hope (and think) the normalisation countinues and it is in my opinion no longer one of the major critics the EU has against Turkey.

The linked article describes a wave of nationalistic incidents in Turkey last April and how Erdogan breaked his silence about them. A group of 200 intellectuals made a statement and warned that those incidents are a risk for Turkey's inner peace. The article further reports a book burning of books from the writer Orhan Pamuk by nationalists after Pamuk said in an interview that one million Armenians were killed in Turkey at the begin of the last century.

There's a risk that the reports on Turkish TV are biased. I think the Turkish people needs to wait until the new historian commission presents their results until they have a really objective (and accepted) source for this conflict.

On your sorrow how the EU will react on a Turkish admission of the genocide I say that EU won't judge the Turkish people for things their grandfathers have done. However the EU made clear that they have an eye on how the Turkish handle their history.

Germany has a mixed track record with the integration of its Turkish popupation and the ideas who's to blame vary. But you sound a bit harsh judging your emigrated countrymen in my opinion. Some had big successes in their new countries and most manage their lives.

There are different reasons why polls showed that the majority of EU citizens are against Turkish membership.
[*]First, Turkey is a big land. Sounds trivial, but to some it is not. Some think they risk much at once.
[*]Many EU citizens percieve the EU as an elite project and they ask themselves, what's going on? The rejection of the EU "constitution" was a clear sign for this. They see how the union expands and expands (that's dramatised naturally) and how the EU's legislative influence grows in new sectors and they just wish to push the brake pedal on the integration process. While this explanation isn't satisfactory, the general feelings of the EU citizens towards the EU must be considered too, in my opinion.
[*]Some don't want to support Turkey with their tax money or generally don't like to think out of the "national box".
[*]You mentioned it, and it is silly to believe that the day Turkey joins, half of its population will pack their bags and work in the other EU countries, but some fear this. And they don't see the benefits of mobile manpower. E.g. they don't realise that Turkish workers were important for postwar Germany's economy.

That said, a minority of Europeans still supports Turkish membership based on the arguments I mentioned earlier, and the whole EU-25 except Austria supports the Turkey talks (maybe they're offended because of 1683... nah, just kidding 😉)

I wanted to point out that the European scepticism hasn't only to do with Turkey but also originates from EU-intern structural problems. The other countries you mentioned probably become EU members, too, since they don't have to deal with some of the hurdles Turkey has to (sheer size and they're surrounded by EU member states so the geographic nitpickers have one argument less). But the EU applies high standards there, too. For example the talks with Croatia were delayed recently because the EU considers the Croatian cooperation to arrest presumed war criminal Ante Gotovina insufficient.

On a sidenote, Switzerland this year had a vote and decided to participate in Schengen, despite lacking EU membership. Come back in 2007 🙂

p.s. My English isn't great either, I sometimes rebuild sentences three times and discover old words after hitting the reply button...

 

[DaFinn]

Turkey is NOT a part of Europe. I don't understand why it should be part of EU??? I hope they are not accepted.

1.)I'd hate to have Syria, Iraq, Iran and the likes to have a border with EU...
2.)Europes history is strongly in ties with Christianity. Like it or not (I don't). A muslim member will only cause troubles, as religion would surely be drawn into discussions!
3.)Turkey is nowhere near the average level of Europe in so many levels. = more problems.
4.)Rest of Europe would need to be pumping billions into Turkey to bring it to level with rest of Europe.
5.)...bleh too many things.