Oh no... "Hezbollah captures three Israeli soldiers"

[Opinionated]

Lowtech - you've been mis-informed. There is very little oil anywhere in Israel and almost none in any of the disputed territories. They import virtually ALL of their oil and related products.

And without irrigation, pretty much all of the land in Israel (not just the West Bank) is pretty poor. However, with the proper technology and a lot of hard work, MOST of the land in Israel can be brought under cultivation. BTW, the Israelis are virtually THE best in the world when it comes to desalinization technology, irrigation technology, etc. They've also got a booming electronics industry.

Lowtech, I would encourage you to reserve your opinion on the region until you've researched and though it through. Your choice, I'm just saying that some folks will "color" the truth a bit at times to support their own position.

Opinionated

 

[AngelOfDeath]

DABANSHEE: I think you should shut your f*cking mouth before you start spreading words about who has deserved what. It's a sad sad situation and a lot's about politic. These soldiers are doing what they are told to, and to be honest I can't imagine that these 3 particular soldiers are enjoying themselfs shooting at other human beings. Damn you are nasty!!!!.

I hope that the conflict some how can be solved...it's a tragegy that so many poeple die on both sides .

AoD

 

[wolf550e]

i am not objective on this point, but i can tell you there is no point in talking to dabanshee and the likes, because he will no listen.
i have nothing against arabs, palestinians, lebanonians or any other people in the middle east living in an arab country (or accupied land), but they have a very anti jewish minority as the government and they systematicly teach the young to hate israel and jews, using this to control. smth like what USSR did when it tough the people that the us is evil and all made to beat the US is right no matter the cost. no american and no russian actualy hate each other. but the russian were tought to hate emericans. it is history now, and america has conquered russia using economic and not military force, but we cant do anything with palestinians and syria... they are fanatics. the people are ok, i talk to them almoust everyday, but they have very bad political and relijious liders. i dont see jewish leaders call to kill arabs, nor i see jewish children use automatic weponds.
opinionated: thanks. when were you in israel?

exuce me for the spelling. i am very angree and cant consentrate.

 

[Opinionated]

wolf550e - Your welcome.... just "calling them like I see them".

I've been to the region several times, but I spent a year there in the early 90's.

Opinionated

 

[thebestMAX]

G

 

[Frenchie]

Ah Tripleshot, dont tell me you are a typical stupid American who beleives the Jewish propanda at face value

DUMBANSHEE: Sounds like you are the one reading propoganda. Whats next...the attrocities of WWII never happened?

 

[Moonbeam]

Opinionated, maybe you should just make your points rather than explain how you know so much more than DABANCHEE. Calling him an anti-Semitic and a freak ain't too different then calling a Jew some name. He was saying that your might is right attitude was the attitude that Hitler took. He WASN'T loosing when he did. He was saying, look at yourself and see if you don't have Hitlarian tendencies, ie that you support might is right.

What I see being expressed is anti-Zionism, not anti-Sematism. Please expose your view that you believe God gave Israel to the Jews if that is behind your favor of one side over the other.

I have slowly over the years moderated my favor of one side over the other. People are people. If you could switch all the babies born to jews and palestinians, they would grow up hating their parents.

I have heard that the Israelies have used the law to grind down and humiliate the Palestinians. They may have created or fuel the monster in their midst.

What is clear to me is that conflict is self-perpetuating. Somebody is going to have to acknowledge the truth of the other side. Each side would do what the other does if they were in that position. people are the same. On each side you have brilliant minds claiming, proving, and justifying their own emotional stupidity.

 

[lowtech1]

Opinionated,

What do you mean by ?color? the story?

I have friends that are Palestinians, and French Canadian Chemical engineers who?s has lived in Israel for years that told me that most white collar workers are Israelis, and the Palestinians may work for the Israelis, but they will never be in a position to work as an equal to the Israelis. I understand that the situation was heightened by Arafat & Saddam Hussein, and the American thirst for the black gold. Because, the Palestinians were displaced and job less in the surrounding regions which lead to the current situation. And, yes the Israelis were nice enough to take in the displaced Palestinians, but they treated them poorly like the way that the American treated the Black & Mexican in the past.

I may not know the complete truth of the region, but your excursion in Israel and the surrounding states may not give you the complete picture either. You may have been in Israel and see it first hand, but your are still an outsider looking in, just as what the GI bias view point of the Vietnam war were like. I may not like the north Vietnamese government, and don?t have any thing against the American people, but I don?t like American foreign policies, such as a 19.5 years trade embargo on the Vietnamese (because the suffering people of Vietnam have to suffer some more due to politics). My past experience in Vietnam lead me to a bias assumption of the Israelis & American backing polices is one of the main contribution the tense situation. The smart-ass Brits & Allies should have keep their hands out of that situation then and now, because we are outsider and will never have the full understanding or the knowledge to manage the Arabs religions & land claim policies.

And, unfortunately I do have friends that are Canadian Jew and American Jew, who?s dislike my view point on the Jewish state claim.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Actually I'm part Jewish myself. Ive got a bit of English, Irish & Scottish on my mums side, Dutch, Danish, German & Javanese on my Father's father's side & Russian, Italian, French & Jewish on my father's mum's side.

I don't give a fuk whether anyone is black blue green or yellow, I'm not anti-semetic, I'm anti-zionist.

The simple fact is the policies of the zionists are just as racist as any of the Apartheid & Nazi policies were, & anyone who claims that they are against racism but support zionism are hypocrats.

"How about if the aborigines of Austrilia told you to get the hell off of their continent?"

Again Etech is talking about something he knows nothing about, Aboriginies make up about 1.5% of the Australian population (& even then most aboriginies have more caucasian blood than aboriginal blood, not that it matters) yet have native title to about 50% of the country. The simple fact is that if it wasn't for their weakness for alcohol (maybe its got something to do with being torn between 2 cultures) Aboriginals in Australia would be doing bloody marvously from the money they get from all the pastural & mining leases & the federation fund money they get in compensation for land illegally confiscated in the past.

Just as I said before "the simple fact the Israelis had their chance of peace & lost it. After the 67 war (well a few years afterwards), both Egypt signed over their claim to the Gaza strip to the Palestinians & Jordon signed over the their claim to the West Bank to the Palestinians to. Well as many Palestinians well tell you during that period many Palestinians were starting to accept Israeli rule, & they would have been quite happy for the West Bank/Gaza to be intergrated into Israel as long as they were given equal rights to Israelis & full citizenship, they wanted the right to secure tenor to their own homes, they wanted equal rights to water supplys, they wanted equal rights to traval, to purchase property, to get building permits (did you know on the west bank Palestinians can't even get building permits to their own land, but if a Jew goes in & claims it, they can get a building permit straight away even if its not their land). The only reason why the Interfada started was because the Palestinians became sick of the racist apartheid policies of the Israelis.

Really if Israel had the guts to declare its self a secular state & gave the Palestinians equal rights as citizens 25 years ago none of the violence of today would be neccesary. But no they wanted to keep up this fantasy of a Jewish state by bringing in millions of Jews from the Soviet Union/Russia & Ethiopia & the only way they could make room for these new settlers was by driving more Palestinians out of their homes & into refugee camps so they can confiscate more land. So its Israel's own fault this is happening."

 

[Opinionated]

<< Calling him an anti-Semitic and a freak ain't too different then calling a Jew some name. >>


Moonbeam, I never called him an anti-semite, I simply implied (and believe) that many of his statements give the impression that he might be. And you are correct, I should NOT have called him a freak. That was a momentary laps of self-control over my anger, when he compared me to Hitler. I NEVER said &quot;Might makes Right&quot;. My point is that there have been multiple attempts to take the land from them by war... They won each time, thus they should be allowed to benefit from their victory. You may disagree, and you have a perfect right to.



<< Please expose your view that you believe God gave Israel to the Jews if that is behind your favor of one side over the other. >>



Moonbeam, you don't know me. It's a huge assumption on you part to assert that it is my Christian beliefs that are my motive for favoring the Israeli side in the current situation. Sophomoric supposition actually. Israel is a secular state, and is NOT the religiously based state referred to in the Bible. My religious beliefs are not the primary reason I favor the Jews in the peace negotiations.



<< I have heard that the Israelies have used the law to grind down and humiliate the Palestinians. >>



&quot;They say...&quot; a lot of stuff, but it doesn't mean that it even remotely resembles the truth.

Moonbeam, I'm neither a zealot nor unreasonable. I have spent much effort at study and thought to reach the opinion on this subject that I currently hold. Please grant me the respect to NOT recognize that my opinion is not some reactionary, emotional, party-line BS. It is a well thought out, multi-leveled, valid argument, that was reached with a great deal of thought.

DABANSHEE - I apologize for calling you a &quot;freak&quot;. Please don't however dismiss my opinions and beliefs by inferring that I am a Nazi, have Hitleristic leanings, or any such other emotionally charged and baseless statement. OK?

Opinionated

 

[Opinionated]

<< What do you mean by ?color? the story? >>



What I mean is that people will craft their own point of view of the truth and support it with favorable &quot;facts&quot; while ignoring contrary evidence.... You MUST be willing to hear all sides of a story before forming your own opinion.




<< I may not know the complete truth of the region, but your excursion in Israel and the surrounding states may not give you the complete picture either. >>



Perhaps not, but I venture to say that I have a more rounded and wider breadth of knowledge about the subject than DABANSHEE does, which WAS my point to begin with.

Opinionated

 

[Opinionated]

<< I don't give a fuk whether anyone is black blue green or yellow, I'm not anti-semetic, I'm anti-zionist. >>



DABANSHEE - I never said you WERE anti-semetic, just hat you &quot;come-off&quot; as one with some of the things you've said.

I shall attempt to bow out of this thread now....

Opinionated

 

[wolf550e]

dabanchee you have read too much propoganda.


<< Really if Israel had the guts to declare its self a secular state &amp; gave the Palestinians equal rights as citizens 25 years ago none of the violence of today would be neccesary. But no they wanted to keep up this fantasy of a Jewish state by bringing in millions of Jews from the Soviet Union/Russia &amp; Ethiopia &amp; the only way they could make room for these new settlers was by driving more Palestinians out of their homes &amp; into refugee camps so they can confiscate more land. So its Israel's own fault this is happening.&quot; >>



yes isreal made a mistake about the decision on the status of accoupied land in 1967. we should have kicked all the palestinians to jorden since they were citirenz of jordan and get rid of them then. now we would not have faced these problems.
the jewish state is no a fantasy. it was built on the blood of people since 1882 and it exists. it is democratic and jewish, and it acheeved much more than what any arab country with no oil did (thats the problem here, evry country around has oil, only we dont..)
the total number of emigrants from the former ussr is below one million, dont know exact numbers. will check. the number of ethiopian jews in israel is very very small. less then 50,000.
the percentage of jewish israely citizens living on land accupied in 1967 is very very very low. those are settlments, less then 1000 people each. most are like 200 people. the jewish population is 5 million. smth like 80% are urban. the number of people in the settlments is so small they dont have political presence...

 

[somethingwitty]

<< Actually I'm part Jewish myself. Ive got a bit of English, Irish &amp; Scottish on my mums side, Dutch, Danish, German &amp; Javanese on my Father's father's side &amp; Russian, Italian, French &amp; Jewish on my father's mum's side. >>



Actually, by definition, you are not Jewish at all. so feel free to continue talking about Jewish Propaganda as an ignorant outsider.

A quick lesson on what defines a Jew (and yes, the different levels hold different definitions). According to orthodox Judaism, you are only Jewish if your mother was Jewish, or if you converted. So, your father is jewish if his mom is, but you arent jewish unless your mom is. Now, reform judaism accepts you as jewish even if it was only your father that was jewish. So, I admit that some may consider you jewish (I respect reform jews' right to believe that, but I personally don't think it counts). BUT, you certainly dont hold to any Jewish ideals as evidenced by your posts, and, as a REAL jew, I find it offensive that you would throw in a comment stating that since you are part Jewish it's ok to make the claims you've made. Even the Jews who are farthest from being jewish (in a practicing sense) tend to be spiritualistic in their beliefs about Israel.

 

[DABANSHEE]

What being or not being Jewish got to do with anything.

The fact is Zionism is a form of racism just as Apartheid &amp; Nazism were, you don't have to be Jewish to know that.

 

[Moonbeam]

Opinionated, in case you check back. My comment about acknowledging a God given right to Israel was not directed at you specifically, but to anyone not arguing up front about this for a Zionist point of view.

What I've heard doesn't make it so. I agree. As it happens, I notice that a lot of people see what isn't so, too. You have heard the terms blinders and selective vision.

And I still don't see how asking if you are pro might like Hitler is anything but a reminder of an excellent example of where that kind of thinking leads, not really a Opinionated=Hitler remark. For example I could say that it's interesting that Wolfe550e is fantasizing in terms of a final soultion for 67. He also has his truth rooted in blood which has to mean he's right, and can unwind and replay time to show that Israeli free Palestine would just be a dung heap today minus the Jews. That's amazing.

 

[somethingwitty]

Dabanshee, you were the one who stated you were part jewish-you tell me why it's relevant. I was only responding because your earlier posts are anti-jewish (when you refer to the &quot;jewish propoganda&quot and you shouldn't follow those up by claiming to be part jewish-I found that offensive.

 

[MrPALCO]

Peace in Israel?

Absolutely.....there will by many tragic events....and then the outlaw will be chained...and then there will be Peace.

Israel is the land of the Jewish Nation and Jerusalem is it's capital...Forever...as it is Written it is Done.

 

[Moonbeam]

&quot;Forever...as it is Written it is Done.&quot; That makes me wonder how things will be handled there as the sun's radiation eventually sterilizes the planet. Forever is a long time.

 

[Frenchie]

Moonbeam: Nice comeback!!! Not.



<< Actually I'm part Jewish myself. Ive got a bit of English, Irish &amp; Scottish on my mums side, Dutch, Danish, German &amp; Javanese on my Father's father's side &amp; Russian, Italian, French &amp; Jewish on my father's mum's side. >>

DABANSHEE:

Jewish is a religion, not a nationality. You dont say, &quot;I'm half Irish, and 1/2 Prodestant,&quot; or &quot;1/3 German, 1/3 Catholic, and 1/3 British.&quot; Consequently, you don't say &quot;I'm part Russian, Italian, French and Jewish.&quot;

 

[noxipoo]

kill them all and we win. unless you live there, stop talking like you live there.

 

[AndrewR]

As I understand it, at least parts of the so-called &quot;occupied land&quot; which Israel retained after the various wars were done so for security purposes, the Golan Heights being the most obvious example (to prevent the shelling of the country by Syrian forces -- weren't they able to reach Haifa from there?). Given that fact, it is perfectly understandable for them to occupy portions of territory from which attacks were launched from a topographically advantageous position.

I do not know if the territory mentioned above falls into that category, but this hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

[Bakwetu]

Andrew-they can't occupy that land forever. Sooner or later it has to go back to the countries that had it before. But as it is now, the Israeles are not just occupying it, they are building new residences there and in fact taking over these parts.

Most jewish and palestinian people would want to live in peace, the religious fanatics on both sides have too much power still

 

[Marty]

Israel signed on to the Geneva Convention, which said that land conquered during wartime must be returned. I don't see why Israel just doesn't follow the rules which it signed on to.

Marty

 

[DABANSHEE]

Still the fact is the whole middleast problem is caused by the concept of Zionism, where a group of people coverted &amp; took over other peoples lands because of some claimed 'god given' right. Therefore if Zionism didn't exist this problem in the Levant wouldn't be occuring. Now one could answer back that if there werent any Palestinians there wouldn't be a problem, but there would be a problem still, because if Palestinians werent living there before the Zionists started to confiscate their lands, other people would have been living there instead. So if the place was full of Druze you'd still have the same problem today, same again if the place was full of Maronites.

Some claimed that the Jews had earned their right to a place in the sun because of their suffering in the holacaust, but the Palestinians weren't responsable for the holacaust, it was the Germans who were responsable. So as the Saudi King once remarked to the US ambassader that it would have been more rational to have parcelled off a little bit of Germany after the war &amp; given it to the Jews instead (afterall a bit of Germany was parcelled off &amp; given to Poland after the war, to make up for that pre-war 1/3 of Poland that became a part of Belarus &amp; the Ukrain after the war).

&quot;Israel is a secular state, and is NOT the religiously based state referred to in the Bible&quot;

Now how can Israel be a secular state Opinionated if it denys equal rights to &amp; full citizenship to Palestinians who have been living their for over a 1000 years, they don't even have the right to secure tenor to their own homes, or equal rights to water supplys, or equal rights to travel, to purchase property,or to get building permits (did you know on the west bank Palestinians can't even get building permits to their own land, but if a Jew goes in &amp; claims it, they can get a building permit straight away even if its not their land). Plus they don't even get equal pay &amp; they don't even get equal welfare allowances even though they pay the same taxes (well they did to relatively recently). The only reason why the Interfada started was because the Palestinians became sick of the racist apartheid policies of the Israelis. Yet Jews from anywhere arround the world have instant rights to citizenship &amp; to migrate there &amp; settle on land confiscated from the native born Palestinians, just on the basis of there race/religion. The fact is they are not the policies of a secular state, &amp; its because of these racist policies that the Palestinians have grown up resenting Israeli rule.



<< &quot;How would you like it if a bunch of Brazilians claimed they were descended from some long lost Indian tribe that was kicked out of North America some 2000 years ago by some other Indian tribe, then went &amp; drove your family off the lands your family had owned for generations, using the 'god given' excuse the Israelis used.?&quot;

How about if the aborigines of Austrilia told you to get the hell off of their continent?

How far back do you want to go? >>



Actually its the Israeli's who are living in a fantasy world trying to recreat a state that hasn't existed in 2000 years.

BTW, Etech, Aboriginies make up about 1.5% of the Australian population (&amp; even then most aboriginies have more caucasian blood than aboriginal blood, not that it matters) yet have native title to about 50% of the country. The simple fact is that if it wasn't for their weakness for alcohol (maybe its got something to do with being torn between 2 cultures) Aboriginals in Australia would be doing bloody marvously from the money they get from all the pastural &amp; mining leases &amp; the federation fund money they get in compensation for land illegally confiscated in the past.