oh, no he didn't... (Biden)

[woolfe9999]

That has basically been my point all along, but you said it in a more even-keeled manner.

This But Bush...! nonsense is seriously beyond ridiculous and tired.

Yes if the statement is framed as "but Bush," when referring to the recession, it is incorrect. I have been saying since 2008 that Bush was not principally resonsible for the recession, if at all. However, when Obama points out that he inherited a recession that *he* did not cause, that *is* correct. And that has been the way Obama has framed it. If certain people on a message board frame it differently, that is a different issue.

When we're talking about the deficit, that is another matter. There is no question that we had 2 tax cuts under Bush, 2 unfunded wars, and an unfunded Medicare entitlement. Those things are the responsibility of Bush, the republicans in Congress, and a lesser number of congressional democrats who supported each policy. Furthermore, there is no question that each of those things has continued to have a fiscal impact in the Obama administration. It isn't as if they were one off expenditures which temporarily raised the deficit then went away when Obama took over.

The crucial point is the relationship between the recession and the deficit expansion under Obama. Much of that is automatic, non-discretionary spending that kicks in under a recession - increased payouts for unemployment, medicaid, cobra, etc. The rest of it is Obama policies directed at combatting the recession - stimulus, TARP, etc. Those who are critical of Obama on deficit expansion need to point to increased spending that is unrelated to combatting the recession. You're going to be very hard pressed to do so, you'll find some things that are basically chickenfeed in budgetary terms.

Incidentally, I agree with you that Obama can take no credit for the Iraq withdrawal. I recall the agreement that came down in December '08 after the election. This was a pre-commitment made by the Bush administration. I think if people are going to correctly divest Obama of credit for something that was started before he came into office, they also need to correctly view the entire context, and all the facts, in judging his record on the economy and deficit.

One final point - the American electorate tends to have short memories. This means they probably *will* credit Obama for the withdrawal, but they'll probably also blame him for the recession and deficit. If I was a republican, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat.

- wolf

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

When we're talking about the deficit, that is another matter. There is no question that we had 2 tax cuts under Bush, 2 unfunded wars, and an unfunded Medicare entitlement. Those things are the responsibility of Bush, the republicans in Congress, and a lesser number of congressional democrats who supported each policy. Furthermore, there is no question that each of those things has continued to have a fiscal impact in the Obama administration. It isn't as if they were one off expenditures which temporarily raised the deficit then went away when Obama took over.

The Democrats cannot claim innocence in the matter. They had to approve the tax cuts, the Medicare entitlement, etc. Especially from 2007 onwards when they controlled both chambers of Congress.

The crucial point is the relationship between the recession and the deficit expansion under Obama. Much of that is automatic, non-discretionary spending that kicks in under a recession - increased payouts for unemployment, medicaid, cobra, etc. The rest of it is Obama policies directed at combatting the recession - stimulus, TARP, etc. Those who are critical of Obama on deficit expansion need to point to increased spending that is unrelated to combatting the recession. You're going to be very hard pressed to do so, you'll find some things that are basically chickenfeed in budgetary terms.

Many believe that these "efforts to combat the recession" are making matters worse. Keynesian economics don't work.

One final point - the American electorate tends to have short memories. This means they probably *will* credit Obama for the withdrawal, but they'll probably also blame him for the recession and deficit. If I was a republican, I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat.

Ha...so true. How ironic...Obama will probably get credit for the war in Iraq that he opposed and get blamed for the "recession he inherited".

 

[woolfe9999]

I think I already acknowledged that some democrats were complicit in each of the unwise policies - the wars, the tax cuts, and especially, the Medicare entitlement.

I think the point about stimulus, TARP etc. and their relationship to the deficit is that these expenditures are recession related. A given person may think these were unwise ways to combat the recession. But making one-off expenditures during a recession to prime the pump, whether right or wrong, is very different from a big government philosophy of creating lots of new permanent bureacracies, entitlements, etc. and doing so without paying for them. My point is that deficit expansion is to be expected during a recession. Had the repubs been in control, they too would have a had a stimulus, consisting mostly or entirely of tax cuts, and that too would have had a negative fiscal impact. And they too would have seen the massive expansion of non-discretionary government spending that is automatically triggered during any recession. So one can disagree with the ways that Obama has chosen to combat the recession - but putting this deficit expansion on him is not really fair. This is what Obama is talking about when he says he inherited the situation we are in. It isn't really about blaming Bush. It is a response to the tendency of people to put this on him without viewing the context and understanding what recessions do to budgets.

- wolf

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I think I already acknowledged that some democrats were complicit in each of the unwise policies - the wars, the tax cuts, and especially, the Medicare entitlement.

I think the point about stimulus, TARP etc. and their relationship to the deficit is that these expenditures are recession related. A given person may think these were unwise ways to combat the recession. But making one-off expenditures during a recession to prime the pump, whether right or wrong, is very different from a big government philosophy of creating lots of new permanent bureacracies, entitlements, etc. and doing so without paying for them. My point is that deficit expansion is to be expected during a recession. Had the repubs been in control, they too would have a had a stimulus, consisting mostly or entirely of tax cuts, and that too would have had a negative fiscal impact. And they too would have seen the massive expansion of non-discretionary government spending that is automatically triggered during any recession. So one can disagree with the ways that Obama has chosen to combat the recession - but putting this deficit expansion on him is not really fair. This is what Obama is talking about when he says he inherited the situation we are in. It isn't really about blaming Bush. It is a response to the tendency of people to put this on him without viewing the context and understanding what recessions do to budgets.

- wolf

Excellent post...I think you're spot on. No doubt that Obama 'inherited' a bad situation...but when he says it...it definitely comes across as blaming Bush and I think its safe to say that most everyone is getting tired of the finger pointing.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Excellent post...I think you're spot on. No doubt that Obama 'inherited' a bad situation...but when he says it...it definitely comes across as blaming Bush and I think its safe to say that most everyone is getting tired of the finger pointing.

Yup...pretty much. Okay great, we know things were bad coming out of 2008 going into 2009. Stop whining about what you "inherited" and focus on what you will do to solve the problem! Pretty much every speech and/or press release from the White House invariably mentions the problems the O-Team "inherited".

Every president inherits problems from the previous administrations and even further back than that. I've never seen one pass the buck and focus on blaming the previous administration as much as the O-Team.

 

[woolfe9999]

Excellent post...I think you're spot on. No doubt that Obama 'inherited' a bad situation...but when he says it...it definitely comes across as blaming Bush and I think its safe to say that most everyone is getting tired of the finger pointing.

Yeah, I think many people are interpretting it that way. I think you have to put yourself in Obama's situation though. If you were getting blamed for a recession and massive deficit spike that went along with it, wouldn't you feel the need to emphasize that you inherited the situation? What else is he going to say, yeah sure, this recession really is my fault, and furthermore the deficit expansion that has gone along with it was all due to my policies and not the recession itself? These statements are a response to criticisms of his record and I really don't think he has a choice but to point out the obvious - that when he took office, we were in the deepest economic downturn this nation has seen in 80 years. If this had been a shallow recession but we were still limping along, maybe it would be reasonable to start blaming him at this point. If he had enacted a new entitlement and created 600 new beauracracies without paying for it, then people could reasonably blame him for that. But people are not patient and not cutting him slack, so I kind of think he needs to remind people of how serious this situation is.

If you want Obama to stop whining about what he inherited, stopping blaming him for the present situation, especially the deficit. When people criticize, a response is generally in order, so if you whine about Obama, expect him to whine back.

In terms of blaming Bush for a recession, that is just certain people on the left playing politics, and it is mostly people in blogs and on message boards, or the occasional pundit. It isn't Obama.

- wolf

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

In terms of blaming Bush for a recession, that is just certain people on the left playing politics, and it is mostly people in blogs and on message boards, or the occasional pundit. It isn't Obama.

False. Obama, Biden, Gibbs, etc. almost never fail to make mention of the "recession Obama inherited" or "after the last 8 years...". It is like clockwork. Rush plays the speeches and the press conferences after they happen.

 

[nick1985]

In terms of blaming Bush for a recession, that is just certain people on the left playing politics, and it is mostly people in blogs and on message boards, or the occasional pundit. It isn't Obama.

100% incorrect.

RyanPaulShaffer's post above mine sums it up well.

 

[waggy]

Yeah, I think many people are interpretting it that way. I think you have to put yourself in Obama's situation though. If you were getting blamed for a recession and massive deficit spike that went along with it, wouldn't you feel the need to emphasize that you inherited the situation? What else is he going to say, yeah sure, this recession really is my fault, and furthermore the deficit expansion that has gone along with it was all due to my policies and not the recession itself? These statements are a response to criticisms of his record and I really don't think he has a choice but to point out the obvious - that when he took office, we were in the deepest economic downturn this nation has seen in 80 years. If this had been a shallow recession but we were still limping along, maybe it would be reasonable to start blaming him at this point. If he had enacted a new entitlement and created 600 new beauracracies without paying for it, then people could reasonably blame him for that. But people are not patient and not cutting him slack, so I kind of think he needs to remind people of how serious this situation is.

If you want Obama to stop whining about what he inherited, stopping blaming him for the present situation, especially the deficit. When people criticize, a response is generally in order, so if you whine about Obama, expect him to whine back.

In terms of blaming Bush for a recession, that is just certain people on the left playing politics, and it is mostly people in blogs and on message boards, or the occasional pundit. It isn't Obama.

- wolf

...wow.

what rock have you been under? Obama not blaming bush? WTF yeah...

 

[woolfe9999]

False. Obama, Biden, Gibbs, etc. almost never fail to make mention of the "recession Obama inherited" or "after the last 8 years...". It is like clockwork. Rush plays the speeches and the press conferences after they happen.

There is no issue with saying he inherited a recession. He did. In terms of "after the last 8 years," that would depend on whether what is being referred to is the recession or the deficit. On the deficit, there is same traction there. If they are framing it in such a way as to directly blame Bush for the recession itself, then I obviously disagree with that. I am going off the last 4 or 5 times I have heard Obama adddress the issue, and I have not seen it in any of those.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

...wow.

what rock have you been under? Obama not blaming bush? WTF yeah...

Here is Obama in the SOU using language that is very typical of what I have heard from him on several occasions:

"One year ago, I took office amid two wars, an economy rocked by a severe recession, a financial system on the verge of collapse, and a government deeply in debt. Experts from across the political spectrum warned that if we did not act, we might face a second depression. So we acted -- immediately and aggressively. And one year later, the worst of the storm has passed."

For saying this, republicans afterward said he was pulling a "but Bush."

If you think that pointing out that there was a severe recession going on when he took office is equivalent of blaming Bush for the recession I can't help you. Get real, there WAS a severe recession going on when he took office, regardless of who was responsible for it.

- wolf

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

There is no issue with saying he inherited a recession. He did. In terms of "after the last 8 years," that would depend on whether what is being referred to is the recession or the deficit. On the deficit, there is same traction there. If they are framing it in such a way as to directly blame Bush for the recession itself, then I obviously disagree with that. I am going off the last 4 or 5 times I have heard Obama adddress the issue, and I have not seen it in any of those.

Now you are apologizing and justifying. Your original statement was "It isn't Obama" blaming Bush. He clearly does...constantly. So does Biden. So does Gibbs. I hear the sound clips. It might not be every single time, but it occurs quite frequently.

Here is Obama in the SOU using language that is very typical of what I have heard from him on several occasions:

"One year ago, I took office amid two wars, an economy rocked by a severe recession, a financial system on the verge of collapse, and a government deeply in debt. Experts from across the political spectrum warned that if we did not act, we might face a second depression. So we acted -- immediately and aggressively. And one year later, the worst of the storm has passed."

For saying this, republicans afterward said he was pulling a "but Bush."

If you think that pointing out that there was a severe recession going on when he took office is equivalent of blaming Bush for the recession I can't help you. Get real, there WAS a severe recession going on when he took office, regardless of who was responsible for it.

Enough said. More apologizing and justifying. No one (outside of those on the left looking to excuse Obama) cares that you "inherited" two wars and a recession. Every president inherits problems. Stop whining about it and deal with it. A classic But Bush...! The fact that he is still playing the blame game a year after Bush left office is pitiful.

 

[woolfe9999]

You can all it apologizing and justifying all you want. There is a symetry here between the criticisms of this administration and the Obama rhetoric which is a response to those criticisms. No one in this discussion is focusing on the nature of those criticisms and whether or not they are reasonable. If you are going to slam Obama for deficit expansion that is recession related, and not recognize it is recession related, then these are the kinds of responses you should expect. If we are going to focus on the criticisms which have drawn these responses, I suspect we will see here a lot of apologizing for and justifying those criticisms. For example, when you display a graph that shows a deficit spike under Obama, and you fail to mention that most of that was automatic spending under existing programs that was triggered by a recession, where is the excuse for that kind of deceptive propaganda?

If you think Obama is just standing there pointing out that he inherited a recession and *not* focusing on what he wants to do about it, I don't know what planet you have been on this past year. The overwhelming, vast majority of everything he says on the issue is about what he wants to do about it. You can disagree with those policies, but claiming that he is just whining and not focusing on solutions is just not reality.

- wolf

 

[JayhaVVKU]

False. Obama, Biden, Gibbs, etc. almost never fail to make mention of the "recession Obama inherited" or "after the last 8 years...". It is like clockwork. Rush plays the speeches and the press conferences after they happen.

I think I've found the source of your ability to not understand nuance.

 

[thegimp03]

I love Biden, every time he opens his mouth hilarity ensues. Funny how he and Obama both opposed the surge in Iraq, and they are now following Bush's exit strategy. Not to mention the time when Biden suggested it would be a good idea to divide Iraq up into 3 different parts. Obama has done a good job keeping him away from a microphone but sooner or later he's gonna get out there and make a fool of himself.

Check out the picture on the foxnews page of Biden, classic!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/11/republicans-object-biden-taking-credit-success-iraq/

Hahah, that's hilarious. Obama's head looks abnormally large in that picture. Someone should caption it...

 

[JayhaVVKU]

You can all it apologizing and justifying all you want. There is a symetry here between the criticisms of this administration and the Obama rhetoric which is a response to those criticisms. No one in this discussion is focusing on the nature of those criticisms and whether or not they are reasonable. If you are going to slam Obama for deficit expansion that is recession related, and not recognize it is recession related, then these are the kinds of responses you should expect. If we are going to focus on the criticisms which have drawn these responses, I suspect we will see here a lot of apologizing for and justifying those criticisms. For example, when you display a graph that shows a deficit spike under Obama, and you fail to mention that most of that was automatic spending under existing programs that was triggered by a recession, where is the excuse for that kind of deceptive propaganda?

If you think Obama is just standing there pointing out that he inherited a recession and *not* focusing on what he wants to do about it, I don't know what planet you have been on this past year. The overwhelming, vast majority of everything he says on the issue is about what he wants to do about it. You can disagree with those policies, but claiming that he is just whining and not focusing on solutions is just not reality.

- wolf

I think most of us get your point and agree. There's an element of political game playing that goes on with the partisan hacks following each administration to take undue credit and avoid warranted blame, however those that want to blame Obama, or Bush, or Barney the Dinosaur will do so without really examining the big picture.

Economically we would be much better off right now if the obstructionists(democrat, republican, and independent(Lieberman)) weren't standing in the way of almost every initiative of this administration.

 

[Robor]

They need to claim victory somewhere now that their promise of free healthcare for all has failed.

More straw men?

 

[sandorski]

Once again, its long past time, to once again debunk the myth that the SURGE caused Iraq to straighten around. When in fact, the surge envisioned by GWB was a totally busted play.

What straightened out Iraq was various backdoor deals made with various Sunnis leaders.
And once the level of violence came down, Iraq could start to rebuild.

As for the Iraqi withdrawal date we are committed to, its not like its something GWB gets credit for, but when GWB made such botches of his twin quagmires, it was the international community acting through the UN that refused an extension of the US occupation of Iraq. So the USA had to set a schedule to leave.

But food for thought, Obama has done a fairly decent job of making sure Iraq does not go off the tracks, but if Cheney were still in office, I wonder if he would be engineering some sort of monkey business in Iraq to extend the US occupation.

this

 

[Moonbeam]

He's so silly

 

[GuitarDaddy]

ROFL at all you righties chanting "But Bush" "But Bush" while conveniently ignoring the fact you only here that in retaliation to irrational over the top Obama bashing.

You are so outraged at the "But Bush" defense, but you feel righteous and justified in absolutely slandering the prez with all manner of delusional BS included but not limited to claiming he is a communist subversive, claiming he intends to destroy America, claiming he forged his birth certificate, etc.. ect... ect...

 

[FerrelGeek]

Sounds fair.

Obama and Biden both voted for the ramp-up in federal spending after the dems took over congress in 2006. So I'm OK with blaming part of the defecit on them.

Bush signed the increased budgets, so I'm OK with blaming part of the defecit on him too, BTW.

 

[lothar]

I love Biden, every time he opens his mouth hilarity ensues. Funny how he and Obama both opposed the surge in Iraq, and they are now following Bush's exit strategy. Not to mention the time when Biden suggested it would be a good idea to divide Iraq up into 3 different parts. Obama has done a good job keeping him away from a microphone but sooner or later he's gonna get out there and make a fool of himself.

Check out the picture on the foxnews page of Biden, classic!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/11/republicans-object-biden-taking-credit-success-iraq/

Biden didn't oppose the "surge" in Iraq.
Were you paying attention to the Democratic nomination campaign?

Biden school'ed Obama and most of the others on Iraq during the debates.

 

[palehorse]

Not defending Biden but your 'partisanship' is showing, PH.

So. Troll on, PH.

I voted for Obama you dolt, but he had absolutely nothing to do with our successes in Iraq beyond continuing what Bush & Co. had already put into motion.

Seriously, the only credit they deserve is for finally stepping out of the way and letting us finish what we started.

 

[palehorse]

Palehorse, you defy logic...Do you actually think the fool who marched us into that mess should somehow get "credit" for ending this disaster?

Actually, yes. While he did march us into the mess -- something I wish he hadn't done -- his Admin's efforts are also responsible for the mostly stable democratic structure in Iraq, the SOFA, and the current timetable we are using for withdrawal. None those things was accomplished, or even supported, by Obama and Biden... until they took office. At which point, they simply stepped out of the way and let the ball continue to roll in the exact same direction it was already rolling.

 

[palehorse]

You are what we call an idiot. If Bush was still in office we would NOT be withdrawing at all from Iraq!!

umm, Obama has not made a single change to the withdrawal timetables that the Bush Admin -- ala Sec. Gates -- put into motion well before Obama was sworn in as President.

So... idiot... you were saying?