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Oh, Dear! What To do???

VinDSL

Diamond Member
Moved from OS to P&N because a partially OS thread in P&N will cause less stir than a partially P&N thread in OS. 😉

Perknose
Senior AT Mod


This is a first! :Q

Clem Lefebvre (developer of Linux Mint) doesn't want Israeli supporters using 'his' software, offering help, or sending him money...

Source: http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=773 (Official Linux Mint Blog)

Oops, I was going to quote his official blog posting, but it (and all 317 replies) were just removed... :roll:

Over on his personal blog...

Source: http://eclelef.blogspot.com/ (Clem's Blog)

I don?t want any money or help coming from people who support the actions of the Israeli government.

Thank you for your understanding. This is very important to me.

Dude, what a shocker!

Linux Mint was my favorite distro - I've spread it's laurels far and wide - but now I'm embarrassed to admit I even run it. I don't want to be viewed as supporting terrorism.

My first inclination was - he doesn't 'own' Linux - how can he tell you to quit using it???

Hell, this is going to end up branding Mint users as a bunch of anti-semitic neo-Nazis!

What to do???

Truthfully, I'm loving Ubuntu 9.04 (so far). What if Clem says to quit using it too?!?!?


 
This is probably more of a P&N post but I will give my opinion.

Who gives a rats hiney what Clement Lefebvre thinks. If you disagree with his sad, pathetic and probably racist view, then don't use his distro. He may not like freedom of thought or speech in his community so give him the finger and move on.

I don't agree with his tactics and he should have just kept his views private because there are two sides to this issue and both sides have valid points. Both sides have also done horrid things to each other. I support the sincere people on both sides that want peace and are willing to negotiate to get there.

Edit:

Another thing, most Palestinians are not terrorist as are most Israelis not terrorist. Your views kind of strike me as racist when all you care about is one side.
 
The hatred of Jews in the Arab world is despicable. You would be amazed at some of the racism you see in other parts of the world. In North America we probably have the most tolerant societies anywhere.

I personally don't like Linux Mint anyway. You can tell that the guy has a closed mind; he has to piggyback on Ubuntu and even then IMO he does more harm than good.

I don't understand how someone can create a theme like Mint is and then call it a distribution. If Linux is going to go anywhere, they need to consolidate. There should be a standard lite, standard, and server version and that's all. The rest should be done through themes and custom installations.
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
I personally don't like Linux Mint anyway. You can tell that the guy has a closed mind; he has to piggyback on Ubuntu and even then IMO he does more harm than good.
You're right about Clem, but wrong about Mint! And, that's the irony of the situation...

Linux Mint had worked it's way up to #3 on DistroWatch. Ubuntu is #1 - openSUSE is #2.

I dunno...

Maybe Clem is one of those ppl that can't handle success. 😉
 
Originally posted by: VinDSL
Originally posted by: SickBeast
I personally don't like Linux Mint anyway. You can tell that the guy has a closed mind; he has to piggyback on Ubuntu and even then IMO he does more harm than good.
You're right about Clem, but wrong about Mint! And, that's the irony of the situation...

Linux Mint had worked it's way up to #3 on DistroWatch. Ubuntu is #1 - openSUSE is #2.

I dunno...

Maybe Clem is one of those ppl that can't handle success. 😉

You know I've used countless distros and I'm serious that I think Mint is a POS. If you do a basic install I'm sure it's fine, but it's not the type of system for any type of power user that wants to multiboot. I can think of 5 distros that are way better than Mint.

1. Ubuntu
2. Fedora
3. Puppy
4. Debian
5. DSL

I had issues with Mint to the point that I couldn't even use it, and I've been using Linux for years.
 
I *think* Bill meant political views shouldn't be a requisite for using an OS... or not! 😉

LoL!

Can you imagine if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs had said this?
 
Well, dude's views were crap, I will give him that much.

I got a ride from an Iranian cab driver once and all he did was bitch about the Jews and Israel. I just opened a window and tuned him out, and I don't think I bothered to tip the guy.
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You know I've used countless distros and I'm serious that I think Mint is a POS.

1. Ubuntu
2. Fedora
3. Puppy
4. Debian
5. DSL
I've used all those too, except for Debian (which I haven't run since the 90's). And, yes, they're fine distros.

Maybe I should have qualified my statement - I prefer Mint on my x64 lappy - Puppy on my doorstop lappy.

On the box, I'm REALLY starting to like 'Jaunty', which surprises me to no end. I hated 8.10!

Anyway, I really haven't had any problem with Mint 6 x64. I had to compile my own WiFi drivers - but that's it.

Sorry you had a bad experience with Mint, but... it IS #3 on DistroWatch. 😀

Having said that - and I'm serious - I don't know if I want to be associated with it any longer...
 
Man, moving this to P&N may in fact have a degenerative effect.

It reminds me of when they moved my Cuba thread in here. :Q
 
I agree that Clem Lefebvre has no standing to order Israel to do anything, its ridiculous on even the face of such an argument of one, but still on the rational side of the argument, he does have every right to question if the current Israeli strategy is long term wise. I for one agree with Clem, I just will not threaten to make the tides stop coming in or the sun stop rising to win the debate.

And what we have here is not a failuuuuuuuuuure to communicate, and what we have is a totally irrelevant argument.

Why pursue such arguments and a waste of thread space?
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I agree that Clem Lefebvre has no standing to order Israel to do anything, its ridiculous on even the face of such an argument of one, but still on the rational side of the argument, he does have every right to question if the current Israeli strategy is long term wise. I for one agree with Clem, I just will not threaten to make the tides stop coming in or the sun stop rising to win the debate.

And what we have here is not a failuuuuuuuuuure to communicate, and what we have is a totally irrelevant argument.

Why pursue such arguments and a waste of thread space?

Israel stood by for years while Hamas launched rockets at them. That obviously didn't solve the problem and it actually got worse. If someone launched a single rocket into my country, I would expect my military to deal with them clearly and decisively.

TBH I have talked to a lot of Arabs and a lot of Jews; I'm Christian so I'm in the middle and relatively objective IMO. From what I have seen, the Arabs openly express hatred for Israel and Jews. The Jews tend to be very reserved about the issue. Some say that Israel should use its military in a serious way, but most seem almost timid and hurt at the fact that all these people have hated on them for so long (and it truly is disgusting).

If I had to pick a side, I would side with the Jews for a number of reasons. This is not a left/right issue as many will make it out to be. It's about the rights of a group of people to live in peace. To me there is a big difference between taking someone's land and blowing yourself up and killing a bunch of people with rockets and grenades. The Arabs are flat-out wrong here.
 
Originally posted by: VinDSL

Hell, this is going to end up branding Mint users as a bunch of anti-semitic neo-Nazis!

I agree that those who oppose the righteous actions of the Israeli government (and there are some here on this forum!) are indeed anti-semetic neo-Nazis, motivated only by their hatred of the Jewish people. It's sickening.
 
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: VinDSL

Hell, this is going to end up branding Mint users as a bunch of anti-semitic neo-Nazis!

I agree that those who oppose the righteous actions of the Israeli government (and there are some here on this forum!) are indeed anti-semetic neo-Nazis, motivated only by their hatred of the Jewish people. It's sickening.

If Mint were even an original or decent piece of software I would care. Without Ubuntu it's nothing. They could have just created an Ubuntu theme and a .deb to take care of the menu, and it probably would have avoided the issues I had with it.

I will personally boycott Mint over this; it just gives me another reason not to use it.
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I agree that Clem Lefebvre has no standing to order Israel to do anything, its ridiculous on even the face of such an argument of one, but still on the rational side of the argument, he does have every right to question if the current Israeli strategy is long term wise. I for one agree with Clem, I just will not threaten to make the tides stop coming in or the sun stop rising to win the debate.

And what we have here is not a failuuuuuuuuuure to communicate, and what we have is a totally irrelevant argument.

Why pursue such arguments and a waste of thread space?

Israel stood by for years while Hamas launched rockets at them. That obviously didn't solve the problem and it actually got worse. If someone launched a single rocket into my country, I would expect my military to deal with them clearly and decisively.

TBH I have talked to a lot of Arabs and a lot of Jews; I'm Christian so I'm in the middle and relatively objective IMO. From what I have seen, the Arabs openly express hatred for Israel and Jews. The Jews tend to be very reserved about the issue. Some say that Israel should use its military in a serious way, but most seem almost timid and hurt at the fact that all these people have hated on them for so long (and it truly is disgusting).

If I had to pick a side, I would side with the Jews for a number of reasons. This is not a left/right issue as many will make it out to be. It's about the rights of a group of people to live in peace. To me there is a big difference between taking someone's land and blowing yourself up and killing a bunch of people with rockets and grenades. The Arabs are flat-out wrong here.

Pro-Israel Jews are no saints to Palestinians. I went to Brandeis, and the few Palestinian students were treated like shit. The fact is, both Palestinians and Israelis are doing their best at genocide while trying to look like the victim for the rest of the world. The difference in their military tactics is a product of capability and level of desperation, not motive or morality.
 
IMO there are only a few "solutions" to the problem (and they're not really solutions):

1. The Jews could move away to another land like a bunch of nomads *again* (not easy for them, but perhaps fair to the Palestinians).
2. The Arabs could do #1 (not easy or fair).
3. The Jews could kill all the Arabs (very very bad).
4. The Arabs could kill all the Jews (again, terrible).

Unfortunately there is no easy solution to the problem. The hate runs too deep. Perhaps in a few generations they can make amends.
 
Originally posted by: soonerproud
This is probably more of a P&N post but I will give my opinion.

Who gives a rats hiney what Clement Lefebvre thinks. If you disagree with his sad, pathetic and probably racist view, then don't use his distro. He may not like freedom of thought or speech in his community so give him the finger and move on.

I don't agree with his tactics and he should have just kept his views private because there are two sides to this issue and both sides have valid points. Both sides have also done horrid things to each other. I support the sincere people on both sides that want peace and are willing to negotiate to get there.

Edit:

Another thing, most Palestinians are not terrorist as are most Israelis not terrorist. Your views kind of strike me as racist when all you care about is one side.

Yours is an admirably sane and common sense kind of post, imported from the OS forum, that we need more of in P&N.

Good on 'ya, soonerproud, you're OK with me! :thumbsup:
 
Look, I'm an Israeli, but I've lived outside of Israel for a big part of my life. In that time, some of my good friends were Arabs, and I even got to talk to a few Palestinians. As such, I think that my view can be considered less biased than the average person in the region, but more informed than the average person outside of it.
The simple answer is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Most Palestinians do want peace, just like most Israelis. The problem is not the general populations, but those few extremists on each side (but mainly on the Palestinian side). The problem magnifies itself when these extremists become the government (not fully by democratic means). In fact, Hamas did not run on a platform of "killing jews" as most people might think, but on a platform based on social care and welfare, which explains why they fared so well in the elections. What I'm trying to say here, is that most Israeli's and most Palestinians support peace, and the problem is the extremists, which do their best and succeed at stopping the peace proceess! Also in Israel, the slightly more hawkish government that was just elected was not elected as such for their views as much as for the leaders Out of the three candidates for the Prime Minister, one was a former PM which had the Intifada start in his days leading the government, and the other was seen by much of the Israeli public as too fragile and unexperienced (maybe because she was a woman without any real military experience, which in a nation such as Israel is somewhat of a must). This is what lead to Netanyahu, an experienced former prime minister whose main messups seemed to have been forgotten(my personal view... I slightly dislike him), to be re-elected. On the contrary to the popular belief that the right-wing parties got a majority, the left wing actually had that. The problem was internal politics, and Shas, a major religious party which is somewhat left wing in it's policies, had a falling out with the other main candidate, Tzipi Livni (the woman), due to trivial and unrelated matters. Livni's party, Kadima, actually got more votes than Netanyahu's, but Shas, as the tie-breaker, opted to go with Netanyahu. This mini-essay on Israeli politics is just to explain that the in both sides, the extremists are a minority, but due to politics or campaigning platforms unrelated to the issues at hand, find themselves currently in the government.
Now a slightly more biased view: As someone who currently does live in Israel, and in the areas affected by the rockets, I can tell you that in any other nation, this would not be tolerated. Many point to the fact that the death toll in Israel is lower, but that is not because of the rockets being less deadly or anything like that: It is because of the Israeli government's extensive programs to help take care of it's citizens. Every home here has to have a bunker like room, which we have to evacuate to on the sound of the alarm, leaving everything as is. In my area we have 30 seconds, some areas have 10 seconds. We often have briefings and practice alarms on all kinds of situations to make sure that we are ready for everything, and to minimize casualties. In fact, there is a whole corps-like unit in the army who's goal is to research these things and give orders on "what to do if". These rocket attacks are not something occasional: it has been going on for over 8 years, with thousands of rockets raining upon Israel. In fact, when Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians for full control, the response was not stopping the rockets but an increase in their quantity!
I don't blame the Palestinian people, I know many as I said before, and they are great people, and some of the friendliest I know. But their government is the problem: A government which teaches propaganda in their schools (search for Hamas children's TV on youtube), which fights urban warfare with the purpose of using civilians as human shields, a government which plays PR games more than it does take care of it's people. The problem is that the Palestinians don't know better, they have never had better, so they have nothing to compare it to. THIS is one of the major mistakes of the Israeli government.
Israel is not a perfect angel, no. Far from it, we have extremists too, just like them; we've made our share of mistakes, and when the nation was still young, we made a couple of mistakes that haunt us to this day, but between that and saying that we have no right to exist, between that and what happens today, there is a huge gap, and we have tried to right the wrongs we did back then, Egypt and Jordan seem to think we've managed.

I'm sorry for this rant, It's a lot of things I think when seeing international reaction to things here in Israel, and I tried to be as unbiased as I could (I personally think I'm more neutral than most) but I know that a bit of bias dripped into it...
-------

About Mint- On Wednesday I'm going to help someone install Linux. I chose Mint as the distro that would probably fit him most... I think I'm gonna be burning a DVD of openSuSE instead...
 
Originally posted by: n yusef
The fact is, both Palestinians and Israelis are doing their best at genocide while trying to look like the victim for the rest of the world. The difference in their military tactics is a product of capability and level of desperation, not motive or morality.

Excellent post. :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Lemon lawIsrael stood by for years while Hamas launched rockets at them. That obviously didn't solve the problem and it actually got worse. If someone launched a single rocket into my country, I would expect my military to deal with them clearly and decisively.

even if the land you refer to as "my country" was land that you stole from the people firing the rockets ?

in most places, the people firing rockets would be referred to as defending their homeland.

the Palestine word for Holocaust - Al Nakba - refers to the destruction of 400 Palestinian villages & the death of their occupants - by Israel, in 1948.

it is exactly coincident with the creation of Israel. last week, Israel marked the 61st anniversary of its "independence". Palestine simultaneously has the 61st anniversary of their own Holocaust.

i thought Israel supporters were against Holocaust denial, yet they continually - for 61 years - deny the Holocaust that Israel inflicted on the Palestinians.

if you deny the Holocaust inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinians, then you are doing the moral equivalent of denying the Holocaust inflicted upon the Jews by Nazi Germany. In both cases, the "inflicters" had overwhelming military force, and they were attacking a civilian population.

In the case of Israel, Israel had the backing of the US and England.

for people that want to understand Israel, read
http://www.palestineremembered.com/

 
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