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Official Playstation 5 thread

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
106,475
21,561
146
I don't know if it's considered an issue that they use different fans in the systems as long as the fans perform to spec and do the job, which is preventing the console from overheating.

I'm pretty sure if I called Sony and told them my ps5 sounds different than my friend's and I see articles online about the units having different model fans they would not do anything for me unless the system itself is shutting down on its own or being faulty.

Mine is pretty quiet, I don't hear it unless I am installing a game from a disc.
that woudl matter very much to me. I hate loud consoles, and I know how loud my old PS3 could get, lol. Those early versions were serious heaters, too--a lot of them overheated on people when they put them in cramped spaces...which was still pretty common for consoles. You don't really see that anymore, because the console generation just started getting used to "mini computer" concept of what they actually became.

Anyway, if the idea that the console was known to run quiet, (and lower power, lower heat, so theoretically longer-lasting--that's why this really does matter, for several reasons). I would want to be able to expect mine to perform that way.

This is something very easy to control. It isn't a silicon lottery problem. It's basic physics and mold-based engineering--does fan have x # of blades or y #? how long are the blades. That actually does matter, and it's something that can be controlled from unit to unit.

Even if you aren't aware of what it means to the increased power draw, warmer-running/shorter-lived reality of your system compared to your friend's, you still notice that it is louder, and maybe hitches more, and it bothers you because your friend's doesn't do that.

This isn't putting together a PC yourself and fiddling with timings and tweaking settings and swapping drivers--it's a pre-baked works-for-everyone-the-same way at the same price (theoretically) device that should, at least, be able to control the simplest, repeatable engineering bits from unit to unit, leaving the hardware failures more to "manufacturing lot" issues, not actually rolling out a different part with noticeably different performance requirements to "meet spec."

"meeting spec" is, in some ways, a cop out for the manufacturer or distributer. I get that this is something you couldn't really fight....unless you get enough upset customers, because they all have cameras now and online public video posting access....and you know how people like to talk on the internet about things that bother them, and there's always a lawyer somewhere, haha.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
13,592
363
126
that woudl matter very much to me. I hate loud consoles, and I know how loud my old PS3 could get, lol. Those early versions were serious heaters, too--a lot of them overheated on people when they put them in cramped spaces...which was still pretty common for consoles. You don't really see that anymore, because the console generation just started getting used to "mini computer" concept of what they actually became.

Anyway, if the idea that the console was known to run quiet, (and lower power, lower heat, so theoretically longer-lasting--that's why this really does matter, for several reasons). I would want to be able to expect mine to perform that way.

This is something very easy to control. It isn't a silicon lottery problem. It's basic physics and mold-based engineering--does fan have x # of blades or y #? how long are the blades. That actually does matter, and it's something that can be controlled from unit to unit.

Even if you aren't aware of what it means to the increased power draw, warmer-running/shorter-lived reality of your system compared to your friend's, you still notice that it is louder, and maybe hitches more, and it bothers you because your friend's doesn't do that.

This isn't putting together a PC yourself and fiddling with timings and tweaking settings and swapping drivers--it's a pre-baked works-for-everyone-the-same way at the same price (theoretically) device that should, at least, be able to control the simplest, repeatable engineering bits from unit to unit, leaving the hardware failures more to "manufacturing lot" issues, not actually rolling out a different part with noticeably different performance requirements to "meet spec."

"meeting spec" is, in some ways, a cop out for the manufacturer or distributer. I get that this is something you couldn't really fight....unless you get enough upset customers, because they all have cameras now and online public video posting access....and you know how people like to talk on the internet about things that bother them, and there's always a lawyer somewhere, haha.
From a QA perspective I understand your point and I agree completely it's something they should have bothered to have the same part on every system. Maybe they rushed to market or production or possibly got better prices by retrofitting different fans. It's a weird scenario to be in and I bet I would also complain if mine was loud.

When I read the article that said there were up to 3-4 different models of fans available I felt like that was lazy engineering.

I do think that if enough people complain or a lawsuit somehow gets going Sony may have to respond with something.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
410
106
116
I do think that if enough people complain or a lawsuit somehow gets going Sony may have to respond with something.
I think that is very naïve above and not sure there that is coming from.
- once any lawsuit starts, the defense lawyers will tell the manufacturer to absolutely stop responding with anything
- lawyer scum will of cause claim class action status for various real/made up deficiency , of every possible and imaginable 'cause'. you , as member of any of such 'action' will get absolutely nothing after years.

so, no - if you want response from Sony, lawsuit is the absolutely the wrong path to go and is actually against your interests.

I also think every big company gets sued all the time, many times a day, every day (including every holiday) - that is just cost of doing business. sony/microsoft/nintendo are no exception.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,867
286
126
I forget if PS5 and XSX CPU are 8 or 6 core, but they are both basically Zen2, same node, yes, and I think if 6 core, they probably get excellent yield b/c it's essentially 8 core dies that only need 2 functioning cores.

But the design is a bit different between the two solutions, and so IIRC the the XSX APU overall is a bit larger, because the Vega part has 6 extra CUs, I think? So at least the output per wafer for Sony's parts should be a bit more efficient.
Zen2 CPU with RDNA GPU (Series x is full RDNA2 and PS5 is a bit of hybrid with some RDNA2 features but not all). That's why I was thinking probably Sony is getting better yields as RDNA2 is still brand new.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
106,475
21,561
146
Zen2 CPU with RDNA GPU (Series x is full RDNA2 and PS5 is a bit of hybrid with some RDNA2 features but not all). That's why I was thinking probably Sony is getting better yields as RDNA2 is still brand new.
I don't know why I typed Vega in there...I knew these were RDNA2 parts....I think I had Picasso/Renoir on the brain because I've been trying to tease out information about what and when the newest Surface Book (and competitors) will be available.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,867
286
126
I don't know why I typed Vega in there...I knew these were RDNA2 parts....I think I had Picasso/Renoir on the brain because I've been trying to tease out information about what and when the newest Surface Book (and competitors) will be available.
Heh no biggie. Really my biggest disappointment is how lackluster the ray tracing performance is from these consoles. AMD is just really behind Nvidia there. It might not be so bad if developers would stop trying to force their games to 4K just to tick a box for marketing purposes. 1440p is perfectly acceptable if it allows better performance. Turning off ray tracing to get away from 30fps is just terrible
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
10,305
2,498
136
Tried PSDirect today. It was before they actually put up the availability but didn't really get close. For S&G I decided to stay in the queue even after the message saying they sold out just to see if the redirect works (it does)
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
3,579
1,951
136
Tried PSDirect today. It was before they actually put up the availability but didn't really get close. For S&G I decided to stay in the queue even after the message saying they sold out just to see if the redirect works (it does)
I’ve been trying PS Direct as well. Haven’t really found a great way to get notified that the queue is live. I signed up for Twitter specifically to follow some PS5 Alerts account but it was almost 10 minutes late today — no chance. Any suggestions re: notifications? Or are people really just sitting there refreshing? If it’s the latter I guess I’ll just cry into the arms of my 3080 until availability is widespread ...
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
10,305
2,498
136
I’ve been trying PS Direct as well. Haven’t really found a great way to get notified that the queue is live. I signed up for Twitter specifically to follow some PS5 Alerts account but it was almost 10 minutes late today — no chance. Any suggestions re: notifications? Or are people really just sitting there refreshing? If it’s the latter I guess I’ll just cry into the arms of my 3080 until availability is widespread ...
Might just be better to wait until January.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
106,475
21,561
146
Heh no biggie. Really my biggest disappointment is how lackluster the ray tracing performance is from these consoles. AMD is just really behind Nvidia there. It might not be so bad if developers would stop trying to force their games to 4K just to tick a box for marketing purposes. 1440p is perfectly acceptable if it allows better performance. Turning off ray tracing to get away from 30fps is just terrible
you would think that their big solution was to have a DLSS-type function for these boxes. AMD is talking about it for RDNA2, still possibly "unlockable" in future software/firmware updates, so, it could be. Wonder if that's the kind of thing that gets added into mid-cycle updated consoles for sure, but I'm also wondering if the consoles already do have the necessary hardware to do their own version of it, so maybe even in PS/XSX firmware updates within the next year?
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
13,592
363
126
I’ve been trying PS Direct as well. Haven’t really found a great way to get notified that the queue is live. I signed up for Twitter specifically to follow some PS5 Alerts account but it was almost 10 minutes late today — no chance. Any suggestions re: notifications? Or are people really just sitting there refreshing? If it’s the latter I guess I’ll just cry into the arms of my 3080 until availability is widespread ...
Follow Wario64 on twitter. That's how I got my ps5. There is times he's is quick and sometimes he may be a bit late. He tweeted about GameStop stock going live and I went on the site shortly after. Was able to click add to cart a bunch of times until one went through.

If you get in the ps direct que very early you can get one. Best buy hasn't had any drops lately but their site is the best.

If you go on there it make you wait to add to cart and then it holds the item in your cart while it sends you a verification code to your email.

Once you get your code you have the item in the cart for up to 10 minutes to pay before it is pulled from you. I remember having a series x in my cart for a good 10-12 minutes before I decided I don't want it.

I ended up getting one by checking the walmart SKU on their app. One of the stores said it had stock, I went and the guy was nice enough to sell it to me.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,035
674
126
you would think that their big solution was to have a DLSS-type function for these boxes. AMD is talking about it for RDNA2, still possibly "unlockable" in future software/firmware updates, so, it could be. Wonder if that's the kind of thing that gets added into mid-cycle updated consoles for sure, but I'm also wondering if the consoles already do have the necessary hardware to do their own version of it, so maybe even in PS/XSX firmware updates within the next year?
Although, I wonder what the difference will be in how Nvidia's DLSS will work compared to AMD's solution. Nvidia uses their neural/Tensor cores to perform AI-base upscaling, but to my knowledge, AMD doesn't have any AI-based cores. From what I'm reading, it looks like they'll have to perform upscaling the CU's shaders. I wonder if this has any other effects on performance?
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,867
286
126
you would think that their big solution was to have a DLSS-type function for these boxes. AMD is talking about it for RDNA2, still possibly "unlockable" in future software/firmware updates, so, it could be. Wonder if that's the kind of thing that gets added into mid-cycle updated consoles for sure, but I'm also wondering if the consoles already do have the necessary hardware to do their own version of it, so maybe even in PS/XSX firmware updates within the next year?
According to what I’ve heard RDNA2 has some deep learning ability like Ampere cards so they are actively working on a DLSS type solution. Thing is I’m not sure whether or not the ps5 has that hardware because it’s not a full RDNA2 GPU. There may be another solution I’m unaware of.

Although, I wonder what the difference will be in how Nvidia's DLSS will work compared to AMD's solution. Nvidia uses their neural/Tensor cores to perform AI-base upscaling, but to my knowledge, AMD doesn't have any AI-based cores. From what I'm reading, it looks like they'll have to perform upscaling the CU's shaders. I wonder if this has any other effects on performance?
I’ve read that there is some deep learning ability in RDNA2 but no details about it or any further info. It may be false but AMD did say they are working on a DLSS type of solution for RDNA2 anyway.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
106,475
21,561
146
^ right. I recall a slide or two about it during the official RDNA2 launch, with it's own AMD name, but I don't recall the details beyond "something will be available for RDNA2...at some time...with future software package." So at least for the RTX 6xxx series and beyond, they have a solution that they are implementing, but yeah, who knows what is going with current and future Zen2/RDNA2-based consoles. XSX might have something ready to go but it may not be there for PS5.

This might be something that is implemented with the refreshes, assuming they happen, and could very well be a substantial benefit, assuming they also do things like vastly increase that Infinity Cache (do the current consoles utilize that? I assume it's part of the core design for RDNA2, and I probably did read about that in the early Sony/MS stuff about it and just forgot....) because that really does seem to be very important for AMD's 4K solution.
 
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blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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www.teamjuchems.com
Or we could just admit that 4K/60 FPS is still a bridge to far with RT type effects.

Even a 3080 without DLSS (you know, upscaling from a lower resolution) could be brought down below a 60 FPS lock easily with RT effects.

And if the consoles could do 1080p - or even 2k if we must increase our resolution - with amazing textures and some nice AA and RT and 60 fps what are really losing? I'd rather have speed and shiny lighting than blatant resolution that's hard to notice from my couch.

DLSS is a problem (too much compute but sold to a gaming audience) looking for a problem to solve. I'll refrain from responding any further on that because its really OT and not relevant.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
51,268
3,902
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And if the consoles could do 1080p - or even 2k if we must increase our resolution - with amazing textures and some nice AA and RT and 60 fps what are really losing? I'd rather have speed and shiny lighting than blatant resolution that's hard to notice from my couch.
This is what I am all about. In my eyes there is no reason to go higher than 1080p right now if they can't get framerates right.

I'd much rather have 1080p/60fps with everything you are talking about than having 4k/30fps without those other fancy accronyms you all are talking about that I have no clue what they mean.

And I am playing on a 10 foot screen at 1080p with no HDR and PS5 and XSX so far look fantastic.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
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DLSS is a problem (too much compute but sold to a gaming audience) looking for a problem to solve. I'll refrain from responding any further on that because its really OT and not relevant.
I don't think that's the case. DLSS is a solution for... well, sort of two separate yet related problems. The main problem is that we want adequate performance at certain resolutions with specific features (RT) turned on. Now, it's theoretically possible to solve this with more CUDA and RT cores, but this brings up other issues such as increased cost, power, and heat. DLSS can solve this problem by effectively reducing the requirements, but the only issue you run into is whether the upsampling algorithm is effective enough to be near-equivalent to the real deal.

I guess you could sum it up as "creative problem solving". Although, it has brought up questions with reviews as to whether it's fair to use DLSS in a review. Personally, I think it's fine as long as both DLSS ON and OFF are covered. To that note, I think it's also good to talk about image quality with DLSS ON as there would be no point if DLSS gave you 10x the performance if it looked like a 480x360 Real Media video from 2000.

If AMD can bring a good solution with their Fidelity FX, then I think this could be a huge boon for console users. Maybe we can make it so the idea of having to choose between ray tracing or 60 FPS is no longer a thing.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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www.teamjuchems.com
I don't think that's the case. DLSS is a solution for... well, sort of two separate yet related problems. The main problem is that we want adequate performance at certain resolutions with specific features (RT) turned on. Now, it's theoretically possible to solve this with more CUDA and RT cores, but this brings up other issues such as increased cost, power, and heat. DLSS can solve this problem by effectively reducing the requirements, but the only issue you run into is whether the upsampling algorithm is effective enough to be near-equivalent to the real deal.

I guess you could sum it up as "creative problem solving". Although, it has brought up questions with reviews as to whether it's fair to use DLSS in a review. Personally, I think it's fine as long as both DLSS ON and OFF are covered. To that note, I think it's also good to talk about image quality with DLSS ON as there would be no point if DLSS gave you 10x the performance if it looked like a 480x360 Real Media video from 2000.

If AMD can bring a good solution with their Fidelity FX, then I think this could be a huge boon for console users. Maybe we can make it so the idea of having to choose between ray tracing or 60 FPS is no longer a thing.
I understand the point you are making. It seems like a hack to me, and it seems to me if the up-sampling could be made that good, it seems like there would be a case for it to be something graphics engine would control - I mean if we know the hardware to be used (especially in consoles) why is ML required to "cheat"? I hear that DLSS support is being baked into Unreal 4 but I have little idea what the means in a practical sense.

If anything, the beef I have is with the marketing materials which said the PS4 Pro and One X were "4K Consoles". Really, they're finally competent FHD consoles that had 4K modes.

Now we have "4K + RT Consoles" that are are really pretty competent at 4K gaming but they already shot that marketing salvo. It seems like the marketing is always one step ahead of reality. Like previously said, I'll keep RT, HDR, large quality textures, high frame rates, low loading times and complex worlds the new consoles offer and push 4K native support off a cliff :p

I think DLSS and the like become PhsyX dinosaurs the minute cards capable of doing those types of functions without crutches appear. The marketing writes itself "TRUE 4K AND RTX FEATURES GALORE!!" That's an opinion and not one the consoles are going to answer in this generation. Maybe the next gen gets a big chunk of ML silicon - that will mean I am definitely wrong :)

Can't wait to line up to buy an 8K console that can finally do 4k/RT/60 fps :D

Edited heavily for content and relevancy to what was actually said!
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,035
674
126
I understand the point you are making. It seems like a hack to me, and it seems to me if the up-sampling could be made that good, it seems like there would be a case for it to be something graphics engine would control - I mean if we know the hardware to be used (especially in consoles) why is ML required to "cheat"? I hear that DLSS support is being baked into Unreal 4 but I have little idea what the means in a practical sense.
I look at it as a clever way to solve a problem of increasing hardware requirements for features. To a degree, you could argue that it isn't much different than adding fixed hardware on a system to perform actions. Why add an HVEC decoder when the CPU could do the job? Dedicated hardware is just a more efficient way of solving the problem, and in this case, supporting 4K with advanced, hardware-intensive visual features (like ray tracing) is a bit of an issue. Just like how using fixed hardware allows the decoding job to be performed more efficiently, using effective upscaling allows what's effectively "the same" result to be achieved with less hardware.

Machine learning isn't required for generating a decent upscaler; most AV devices have them already. However, machine learning actually works really well for some image tasks, and the reason for that is in the learning process. For example, with resizing, what you do is take an existing 4K image, reduce it to 1080p or 1440p, and give it to your algorithm with the original image as its truth/comparison object. The same concept was done to allow algorithms to perform coloration of black and white video by just taking an existing color video and making it black and white.

I think DLSS and the like become PhsyX dinosaurs the minute cards capable of doing those types of functions without crutches appear. The marketing writes itself "TRUE 4K AND RTX FEATURES GALORE!!" That's an opinion and not one the consoles are going to answer in this generation. Maybe the next gen gets a big chunk of ML silicon - that will mean I am definitely wrong :)
PhysX is an entirely different beast. It was (originally) an accelerator that could produce nice tech demos, but in just about all games, the result was never enough to really be worth it. I actually see another avenue for DLSS to provide value... avoiding hardware obsolescence. As hardware begins to get older and not handle games as well, you're usually stuck turning down those nice visual features just to maintain good framerates. Whether you have a desktop and no budget to upgrade, or have a laptop and cannot upgrade, DLSS could allow you to reduce the render resolution to give you more headroom. It's one reason why I like the idea of G-Sync on laptops; it helps provide longevity by making lower framerates more bearable.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
13,592
363
126

I will probably grab that day one.

This game also looks INCREDIBLE! It's says it's for PC and consoles, so assuming PS5 and XSX.

Yea that looks good. Hoping to find out more about the two versions and their differences. But if they make use of the ps5 adaptive controller functions that would be nice. Basically it will turn into which console version will look better.

Cyberpunk broke my 1080ti lol so no more upcoming pc games for me until I can find a card to buy as an upgrade.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,867
286
126
As always I’ll wait for reviews. I have fairly limited game time lately. It will also depend on what else I am playing at the time.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,035
674
126
Housemarque usually makes really good, solid games, but the one catch is that they're typically a bit of a niche genre. You look at games like Super Stardust Ultra, Outland, Resogun, Materfall, or Nex Machina, and they're all good games, but most of them fall into an arcade shooter genre that doesn't get a ton of love. (Outland is a platformer using the Ikaruga-style energy swapping, and it's quite good if you've never played it.) So, given their track record, I do have good hopes for Returnal, but it's also a bit out of their usual wheelhouse.
 

BarkingGhostar

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2009
9,755
2,397
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Seems silly to company a launch year with the trailing/dwindling end year before, no? Would it not be more appropriate tom company launch year to the last launch year?
 

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