What I can't believe this thread has reached 600 posts. Anyone know when it's going to be unstickied?
I don't know if this has been addressed before, cuz i am definatly not checking all the replies if it has or not 
, but... when Smith transferred himself from the Matrix to the body in the "real world", it wasn't really a machine 2 human transition, because the "real world" is only there for the people who escape out of the matrix. So he's really just going from one program to the other....
well, that's my theory... or though.
, but... when Smith transferred himself from the Matrix to the body in the "real world", it wasn't really a machine 2 human transition, because the "real world" is only there for the people who escape out of the matrix. So he's really just going from one program to the other....well, that's my theory... or though.
Haven't had time to catch up here, but I'm going to post what my theory is, and I believe it to rock solid and the best theory out there...evidence to back most of my points up. I posted this on another site, and I'm just going to recopy it:
I don't believe in the "Zion is a 2nd Matrix" or the "Matrix within a Matrix" theories. While they are good ones (and was what I first thought of when I saw it the first time), it's too obvious, and not to mention lame. I don't believe the Wachowski's would make Reloaded this deep, only to have it end as "there are dual Matricies!" and Neo wakes up from a dream or something.
One thing, if Zion was a second Matrix, wouldn't there need to be another anamoly in the 2nd Matrix? Another "The One?" We also did see the machines and pods in the first movie...I think Zion truly is real. I believe the One, in this case Neo, is a program. I'll begin by pointing to pieces of the Architect's speech:
The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion.
Right from his mouth. The One (i.e. Neo) contains code in him. This code will be reinserted into the next Matrix, paving the path for the next One.
Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication. A contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One
The Architect there is saying that the previous Ones were designed. If Neo was human, I don't believe that he could be designed. Rather, he is at least part program. The Architect here also says that he was to become attached, and one with his "species": the freed people of Zion. They were to then help him fulfill the function, or role of the One: to eventually reload the Matrix. Remember, the Architect says in the speech that with every reload of the Matrix, the next becomes more efficient at destroying Zion, and closer to perfection.
I'm thinking that Smith is the anamoly. The One is preprogrammed into the Matrix...there is one in every version of the Matrix. Smith seems to be a virus, overwriting pieces of the Matrix. I think that Neo, The One, is just a pawn for the machines, to help them reload the Matrix and start the cycle over again. Remember, The One is the only one who can reach the Architect.
The laws of physics in the Matrix can be bent, hence all the wild jumping and fight scenes, from not only Neo, but also Trinity and Morpheus. If Zion/the real world was a second Matrix, I'm sure that someone would have found that you could also bend the laws of physics there...at least The One should have.
Remember from the first Matrix that Agents (programs running in the matrix) can communicate with the sentinels. They did this when they ordered a strike on the Neb...while Neo and Trinity were freeing Morpheus.
Now in Reloaded Agent Smith says part of Neo is imprinted on him, and part of Agent Smith is also imprinted on Neo. Therefore Neo can also communicate with the sentinels...
At the end of the first Matrix movie, Neo and Smith connected after Neo has "destroyed" him. They seem to now share powers: Neo use powers in the real world that aren't supposed to be, and Smith was able to transport himself into the real world.
Some interesting things that probably don't mean much, but:
In the first movie, while Tank was loading programs into Neo: "10 programs in one hour (something like that)...he's a machine."
Trinity to Neo, BEFORE he is the One...that is, before his second life, which is when the Oracle said he would be the One: "You move like they do," referring to the Agents.
One thing I noticed the second time I saw the movie, is that when Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo walk into Merovingian's little restaurant area, the number above the door is "101" This was the same number of Neo's apartment in the first movie.
In the Revolutions preview, when Neo and Smith run at each other, you hear Morpheus say "He fights for us." He wouldn't be talking about Neo, since that is obvious...so is he talking about Smith? Maybe Neo turns about to be something bad, while Smith seems to turn into the "good guy."
---
Ok, I saw the movie a THIRD time today...I wasn't planning on it. Bruce Almighty was sold out, and the guys I was with hadn't seen Reloaded, so we saw it.
I picked out one thing, this time from the Oracle.
While talking with Neo in the courtyard, you might recall she was talking about exile programs and the sort. This is what she said, not word for word though:
When programs are not needed anymore, they have a choice. They can either go to the source and be assimiliated back into the system, or they can return to the Matrix as a rogue program.
This is exactly what Neo does when he meets the Architect. He can choose the door on the right, go to the source, rebuild Zion, and reload the Matrix. Or he can choose the door on the left, and return to the Matrix, but the Matrix will suffer a total failure, and all of the people plugged into it will die.
Neo is a program. There is just way to much evidence to point to it...the Matrix within a Matrix theory has very little to back itself up.
I don't believe in the "Zion is a 2nd Matrix" or the "Matrix within a Matrix" theories. While they are good ones (and was what I first thought of when I saw it the first time), it's too obvious, and not to mention lame. I don't believe the Wachowski's would make Reloaded this deep, only to have it end as "there are dual Matricies!" and Neo wakes up from a dream or something.
One thing, if Zion was a second Matrix, wouldn't there need to be another anamoly in the 2nd Matrix? Another "The One?" We also did see the machines and pods in the first movie...I think Zion truly is real. I believe the One, in this case Neo, is a program. I'll begin by pointing to pieces of the Architect's speech:
The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion.
Right from his mouth. The One (i.e. Neo) contains code in him. This code will be reinserted into the next Matrix, paving the path for the next One.
Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication. A contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One
The Architect there is saying that the previous Ones were designed. If Neo was human, I don't believe that he could be designed. Rather, he is at least part program. The Architect here also says that he was to become attached, and one with his "species": the freed people of Zion. They were to then help him fulfill the function, or role of the One: to eventually reload the Matrix. Remember, the Architect says in the speech that with every reload of the Matrix, the next becomes more efficient at destroying Zion, and closer to perfection.
I'm thinking that Smith is the anamoly. The One is preprogrammed into the Matrix...there is one in every version of the Matrix. Smith seems to be a virus, overwriting pieces of the Matrix. I think that Neo, The One, is just a pawn for the machines, to help them reload the Matrix and start the cycle over again. Remember, The One is the only one who can reach the Architect.
The laws of physics in the Matrix can be bent, hence all the wild jumping and fight scenes, from not only Neo, but also Trinity and Morpheus. If Zion/the real world was a second Matrix, I'm sure that someone would have found that you could also bend the laws of physics there...at least The One should have.
Remember from the first Matrix that Agents (programs running in the matrix) can communicate with the sentinels. They did this when they ordered a strike on the Neb...while Neo and Trinity were freeing Morpheus.
Now in Reloaded Agent Smith says part of Neo is imprinted on him, and part of Agent Smith is also imprinted on Neo. Therefore Neo can also communicate with the sentinels...
At the end of the first Matrix movie, Neo and Smith connected after Neo has "destroyed" him. They seem to now share powers: Neo use powers in the real world that aren't supposed to be, and Smith was able to transport himself into the real world.
Some interesting things that probably don't mean much, but:
In the first movie, while Tank was loading programs into Neo: "10 programs in one hour (something like that)...he's a machine."
Trinity to Neo, BEFORE he is the One...that is, before his second life, which is when the Oracle said he would be the One: "You move like they do," referring to the Agents.
One thing I noticed the second time I saw the movie, is that when Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo walk into Merovingian's little restaurant area, the number above the door is "101" This was the same number of Neo's apartment in the first movie.
In the Revolutions preview, when Neo and Smith run at each other, you hear Morpheus say "He fights for us." He wouldn't be talking about Neo, since that is obvious...so is he talking about Smith? Maybe Neo turns about to be something bad, while Smith seems to turn into the "good guy."
---
Ok, I saw the movie a THIRD time today...I wasn't planning on it. Bruce Almighty was sold out, and the guys I was with hadn't seen Reloaded, so we saw it.
I picked out one thing, this time from the Oracle.
While talking with Neo in the courtyard, you might recall she was talking about exile programs and the sort. This is what she said, not word for word though:
When programs are not needed anymore, they have a choice. They can either go to the source and be assimiliated back into the system, or they can return to the Matrix as a rogue program.
This is exactly what Neo does when he meets the Architect. He can choose the door on the right, go to the source, rebuild Zion, and reload the Matrix. Or he can choose the door on the left, and return to the Matrix, but the Matrix will suffer a total failure, and all of the people plugged into it will die.
Neo is a program. There is just way to much evidence to point to it...the Matrix within a Matrix theory has very little to back itself up.
If Neo is a program and there is no Matrix within a Matrix, how is Neo operating in the outside ("real") world? Smith at least plugged into someone's brain.
IF neo is a program, who is the real-life neo if they are actually in the 'real-world?'
Answer me that becasue I am eager to see how this works out...
Answer me that becasue I am eager to see how this works out...
Just another tidbit to throw out there - in line with the theory that man and machine created the Matrix together. (from my post down the thread)
I am trying to get my mind around why Zion must be destroyed -- and I am thinking it might be related to an accelerated Darwinism factor. If the Matrix was created as a kind of lifeboat for mankind, the machines would have thought that they would need to not only keep the race alive, but also keep it evolving. They don't want to wake everyone up at the end of the day and have them be dumb automatons. So, while they wanted the humans to thrive by having choice they also want them to have survival skills. What better way than to have a Zion where the best and brightest struggle to escape the system (some by themselves). Now you have a 1% gene pool of top shelf people - but if you allow them to grow much beyond a small population they are going to really start to free more and more "average folks" from the Matrix to the detriment of all. So, you tap this Neo person to try to find and then save Zion and he is awakened when Zion is reaching critical mass. He is supposed to destroy Zion each time, thus saving the future of mankind once again. Likewise, to keep things moving at a brisk pace you would want that Zion population to be somewhat liberal in morals - so they have as many kids as possible in the shortest time possible. Thus the rave scene where we see human sexuality on parade. The machines might even take some of the embryos from Zion and insert them back into the Matrix to keep things fresh in the gene pool.
This would explain why the machines don't just put big spikes at the bottom of the exit chute when humans wake up. It would still explain why there is a huge underground city which you would think would take longer than 100 years to construct (the age Morhpeus thinks the Matrix is). Even if there was a war between men and machines there is no way man could build that city without the help of machines. However, if the machines helped because they also wanted to survive underground...then it becomes possible. The symbiotic relationship.
I am trying to get my mind around why Zion must be destroyed -- and I am thinking it might be related to an accelerated Darwinism factor. If the Matrix was created as a kind of lifeboat for mankind, the machines would have thought that they would need to not only keep the race alive, but also keep it evolving. They don't want to wake everyone up at the end of the day and have them be dumb automatons. So, while they wanted the humans to thrive by having choice they also want them to have survival skills. What better way than to have a Zion where the best and brightest struggle to escape the system (some by themselves). Now you have a 1% gene pool of top shelf people - but if you allow them to grow much beyond a small population they are going to really start to free more and more "average folks" from the Matrix to the detriment of all. So, you tap this Neo person to try to find and then save Zion and he is awakened when Zion is reaching critical mass. He is supposed to destroy Zion each time, thus saving the future of mankind once again. Likewise, to keep things moving at a brisk pace you would want that Zion population to be somewhat liberal in morals - so they have as many kids as possible in the shortest time possible. Thus the rave scene where we see human sexuality on parade. The machines might even take some of the embryos from Zion and insert them back into the Matrix to keep things fresh in the gene pool.
This would explain why the machines don't just put big spikes at the bottom of the exit chute when humans wake up. It would still explain why there is a huge underground city which you would think would take longer than 100 years to construct (the age Morhpeus thinks the Matrix is). Even if there was a war between men and machines there is no way man could build that city without the help of machines. However, if the machines helped because they also wanted to survive underground...then it becomes possible. The symbiotic relationship.
I think Neo is human, but was implanted with some sort of programming by the Matrix. In the first movie, I think when he is talking about saving Morpheus he states that he somehow "knows" he is supposed to save him. He seems to be accessing data in some way.
In the second movie he sees the future in his dreams, but as we saw in the Architects room he could be seeing any number of possible futures, but by following certain courses of action he is actually bringing his dreams to fruition. It is like the Oracle says about the vase...if he knew, would he still break the vase? He knows what he must do because he sees the script in his mind...which is how he can be so much better at fighting (he reads ahead!). A man/machine combo would be MUCH faster than a pure machine because it could extrapolate and use relational data much quicker than a machine alone could. Neo is the "1" (binary) because he is machine AND man.
Of course, that is just one theory of many.
It is all much simpler then you think, many theories create confusion which leads to further misguided opinion. See the film through your perception, because evolution will just raise many un answerable questions as reloaded leading to this thread making a world record attempt at the longest post ever.
Oracle, bad bad mommy(Virgin mary)..make sexing with white hair guy (God) = make neo baby. (jesus).
Oracle, bad bad mommy(Virgin mary)..make sexing with white hair guy (God) = make neo baby. (jesus).
What were the plugs doing back in neo? As I recall they removed all the plugs except for the one on the back of his head in the first matrix after he was taken out of his dead human water.
Anyone know? Also does the matrix video game enlighten us on anything we didnt pick up in reloaded?
thanks
Anyone know? Also does the matrix video game enlighten us on anything we didnt pick up in reloaded?
thanks
They werent plugs, they were the holes the plugs went into, you cant remove the holes as there connected to the internals of the human.
They did remove the plugs form Neo in the first movie. They are back as if by magic. Maybe God.. I mean the Architect put them back on him so he could look cooler in this movie. Just my opinion.
no, i just watched it, he has them all the way through the movie, when you see them "operating" on the holes they are plugging them
well, i hardly believe your theory to be rock solid, and certainly not the best one out there, but you do share some interesting points. i also believe the "matrix in a matrix" to be incredbly lame, but so many things in reloaded support this theory, specifically because of all the evidence hinting at the possibility that neo is a program. also consider how agent smith is able to "hack" into a human. it seems that the wachowski brothers have gone to great lengths to differentiate between the real world and the matrix. i don't think something like having a program hack into someone's mind is indicative of a real life scenario. (although, who are we to say what will be possible in the future). in any event, i had a theory about agent smith's "hack" that involved true to life scenarios. consider schizophrenia and multiple personality disorders. many people who have these disorders commit murders, claiming that "voices in their head" told them to do it. perhaps by tapping into the phone line, agent smith caused a similar pyschological disorder in bane, and the "voices" are telling him to kill neo. it's not so much that agent smith takes over bane's body, which is somewhat far-fetched. such a theory, however, doesn't explain how a program would cause a pyschological disorder that would have effects that manifest themselves in neo. his abilities are far too complex - it's no longer as simple as "kill so an so." therefore, i don't believe that neo is a human being, who is a byproduct of a computer program, although the idea is somewhat appealing.
One thing, if Zion was a second Matrix, wouldn't there need to be another anamoly in the 2nd Matrix? Another "The One?" We also did see the machines and pods in the first movie...I think Zion truly is real.
no, i don't believe there needs to be a second anamoly. the whole point of constructing a "matrix within a matrix" would be to offer an extra level of control. if people would also escape from the matrix that contains zion, then what would be the point of constructing multiple matrices? it would just go on forever. also consider that the matrix is a way of controlling the mind. if your mind thinks that it was freed (even if this wasn't really the case) then wouldn't that be sufficient? another explanation would be to consider how neo is able to stop the sentinels at the end of the movie. there's your second anamoly right there.
I believe the One, in this case Neo, is a program.
i agree. and it is because of this that i feel that the 2-matrix theory seems logical. you cite pretty good evidence. i would like to add one more thing. you explained how agent smith said that part of neo was "imprinted" onto agent smith, but forgot to mention that immediately afterward agent smith says part of neo "must have been copied or overwritten" - something that would happen between programs, but not between a program and a human. also, agent smith says ".....i'm unplugged, a new man. like you, apparently, free......" o.k. - if that "apparently free" line doesn't ring off some bells about a "matrix w/in a matrix" then i don't know what else will.
Remember, the Architect says in the speech that with every reload of the Matrix, the next becomes more efficient at destroying Zion, and closer to perfection.
well your statement implies that the matrix becomes more efficient at destroying zion, and this is not what the architect says. the architect says that the machines have become more efficient. we are led to believe that the means would be the use of sentinels and artillery - i.e. a real battle. remember that the matrix is simply a program, and alone cannot destroy anything. also, as far as the audience knows, zion and the matrix are two seperate places. erasing or rebooting it would have nothing to do w/ zion being destroyed. only if zion was actually within a second matrix, would a reboot or deletion within the matrix cause a problem.
I'm thinking that Smith is the anamoly. The One is preprogrammed into the Matrix...there is one in every version of the Matrix. Smith seems to be a virus, overwriting pieces of the Matrix. I think that Neo, The One, is just a pawn for the machines, to help them reload the Matrix and start the cycle over again. Remember, The One is the only one who can reach the Architect.
this is an intersting interpretation, you're saying that "the anamoly" and "the one" are two different things. i see no evidence against this, except for the fact that the new agents call neo the anamoly.
The laws of physics in the Matrix can be bent, hence all the wild jumping and fight scenes, from not only Neo, but also Trinity and Morpheus. If Zion/the real world was a second Matrix, I'm sure that someone would have found that you could also bend the laws of physics there...at least The One should have.
the "laws of physics" can only be broken if you're not physically connected to the matrix. you have to hack in like the zion rebels do. just like you ask "i'm sure someone would have found that you could....." the same can be said about the original matrix. people would have found that you could bend the rules. but nobody ever did. only once you "woke up from the matrix" were you able to bend the rules.
In the Revolutions preview, when Neo and Smith run at each other, you hear Morpheus say "He fights for us." He wouldn't be talking about Neo, since that is obvious...so is he talking about Smith? Maybe Neo turns about to be something bad, while Smith seems to turn into the "good guy."
first of all, the scenes in a preview are cut, you have no idea what scene connects to which other scene. that said, i really don't think people should read too much into the statement. if you looked carefully, you also saw seraph (the d00d that protects the oracle) fighting in the revolutions preview. morpheus may have been refering to him.
Neo is a program. There is just way to much evidence to point to it...the Matrix within a Matrix theory has very little to back itself up.
i really don't know how you can say these two things in the same sentence. if neo is a program, there is little possibility for him to exist in the real world. are we willing to believe that the machines are so advanced, that they can write programs to control human thought?? maybe this is the case, realizing that the machines themselves seem to have developed fairly complex AI.
one more thing, remember the line that morpheus says at the end of the move: "I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone from me." perhaps this "dream within a dream" is indicative of the matrix within a matrix idea.......just a thought.
to point out counter-arguments to those that think that neo a program, consider that there are direct quotes stating that neo is human: when neo can't sleep, the counselor says "...you are still human...." also, in the conversation w/ the architect, he says ".....you are irrevocably human, ergo some answere you will understand....."
point in case, there are really so many ways of interpretting various details that speculating is pretty difficult. you can get caught up in one theory and find evidence for it everywhere, while someone else will find evidence to contradict it. that said, i'm not really setting my interpretations in stone just yet, i'm simply entertaining various possibilities.
Some interesting things that probably don't mean much, but:
In the first movie, while Tank was loading programs into Neo: "10 programs in one hour (something like that)...he's a machine."
Trinity to Neo, BEFORE he is the One...that is, before his second life, which is when the Oracle said he would be the One: "You move like they do," referring to the Agents.
One thing I noticed the second time I saw the movie, is that when Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo walk into Merovingian's little restaurant area, the number above the door is "101" This was the same number of Neo's apartment in the first movie.
i like those quotes from trinity and tank!!! lots of foreshadowing there- that is, if neo really does turn out to be a program. i actually did notice that "101" reference. did you also realize that the highway scene takes place on interstate 101?
Well, I just found this thread so I don't know if anyone else has brought this up. When Morpheus was talking to everone in Zion, I think it was the kid that Neo saved, he climbed up on something so he could see Morpheus better. This reminded me of Zacheus (sp) climbing on a sycamore tree to see Jesus speaking. It's not an exact reference but its similar. And who is Morpheus supposed to be? Paul or John? I'm not up on my Biblical stuff so I don't have a good guess.
Originally posted by: hdeck
no more sticky
but the philly meet thread which has had 3 replies in the last 10 days definitely needs the sticky...
[/EXTREME SARCASM]
Anyone notice the "multiple screens" in the 1st movie when Neo is taken into custody at the beginning? I laughed when I saw that watching the 1st one again.
Also, what has been failed to be mentioned is the fact that choice is obviously irrelevant, as every single one of those screens had Neo standing in the same room with the architect. The infinite number of choice and possibilities had but one final result...
Any thoughts on that?
Also, what has been failed to be mentioned is the fact that choice is obviously irrelevant, as every single one of those screens had Neo standing in the same room with the architect. The infinite number of choice and possibilities had but one final result...
Any thoughts on that?
I still think the courtyard scene with the Oracle is the key to proving Neo is a program, or at least somewhat of a program. I think maybe not Neo himself, but the role, function, and path of the One, is programmed.
Oracle: When programs are not needed anymore, they have a choice. They can either go to the source and be assimiliated back into the system, or they can return to the Matrix as a rogue program.
This is exactly what Neo does when he meets the Architect. He can choose the door on the right, go to the source, rebuild Zion, and reload the Matrix. Or he can choose the door on the left, and return to the Matrix, but the Matrix will suffer a total failure, and all of the people plugged into it will die.
Oracle: When programs are not needed anymore, they have a choice. They can either go to the source and be assimiliated back into the system, or they can return to the Matrix as a rogue program.
This is exactly what Neo does when he meets the Architect. He can choose the door on the right, go to the source, rebuild Zion, and reload the Matrix. Or he can choose the door on the left, and return to the Matrix, but the Matrix will suffer a total failure, and all of the people plugged into it will die.
Neo is referred to as a human multiple times in the movie. The agents say he's human, the architect says it when he first see's neo and the Magio-whatever guy says it when the sword cuts Neo's hand.
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