OFFICIAL lakers vs spurs game 4: time to get down to business

[pennylane]

Originally posted by: Ludacris
Wow, he points to Shaq's poor ass free throw ability as his GREAT skill. Someone in this board must be smoking a fat and stank one.

He's already pointed out a few of the other ones.
Maybe it was a victory cigar. Something you've never tasted?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: fanerman91

Originally posted by: Ludacris
Wow, he points to Shaq's poor ass free throw ability as his GREAT skill. Someone in this board must be smoking a fat and stank one.

He's already pointed out a few of the other ones.
Maybe it was a victory cigar. Something you've never tasted?

he's just a bad sport.

OH btw, IF the lakers beat my team the nets this year in the finals, i can GUARANTEE you i won't be here whining and b!tching like some of you morons.

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Wow, 17 of 23. And oh, lets see. For this seasons playoffs his percentage is .609. Career playoff percentage is .529. Career percentage overall is .542. You're right. Absolutely stellar. You really got me there

and 3 rings. hmmmmm.

face it. you're just jealous because he keeps winning.

Irony is, I'm not even a lakers fan. Haven't been for a long time. I'm a Nets fan and when they meet the lakers in the finals i'm gonna be rooting for the Nets. but until then i can acknowledge Shaq's contribution to the NBA unlike poor sports like you.

BTW, In Wilt's Prime he changed the RULES of basketball because of his abilities. Sometimes you have physical anomolies that makes it difficult for others, so it happens.

Just because shaq is a freak of nature doesn't mean that he isn't a GREAT BBall player.

truth is all seven footers are freaks of nature.

I like how you completely stepped around my reply. I wasn't even really counting on a reply since the "wankers" disaper in the prescense of numbers. According to you that is.

Anyway, yes, he does have three rings. And he did get them completely on his own didn't he. No help or anything from one of the best guards in the history of the nba. Also it's not like the nba finals have been a foregone conclusion the last few years either. Whoever comes out of the west is winning. It's that simple. So you've got a team with arguably two of the top 5 players in the game, a league devoid of good big men, and no eastern conference competition and they've won three straight. No way...... Can't be

And if disliking a team because their completely lacking in class (exception of kobe and a few of the bench scrubs) makes you a poor sport than I guess that's what I am. If you meant anything else you're just diluded. I dislike the lakers because of who they are, not their rings.

 

[Ludacris]

Never tasted a victory cigar? Spurs won the championship in 1999 right after they swept the LAKERS and JAILBLAZERS.


Puff-Puff-Pass

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmsclI like how you completely stepped around my reply. I wasn't even really counting on a reply since the "wankers" disaper in the prescense of numbers. According to you that is.

Anyway, yes, he does have three rings. And he did get them completely on his own didn't he. No help or anything from one of the best guards in the history of the nba. Also it's not like the nba finals have been a foregone conclusion the last few years either. Whoever comes out of the west is winning. It's that simple. So you've got a team with arguably two of the top 5 players in the game, a league devoid of good big men, and no eastern conference competition and they've won three straight. No way...... Can't be

And if disliking a team because their completely lacking in class (exception of kobe and a few of the bench scrubs) makes you a poor sport than I guess that's what I am. If you meant anything else you're just diluded. I dislike the lakers because of who they are, not their rings.

you're entitled to dislike anyone you like. to claim, however, that shaq has NO TALENT or SKILL is ludicrous. To claim that Shaq won ONLY because of referreeing is ludicrous.

IF you want to say "I hate the lakers" fine your entitled.

IF you want to try and claim that the lakers and shaq somehow DIDN'T deserve to win, that's where i take exception. THEY DID WIN. and the won LEGITIMATELY. were there some bad calls?? name one championship anywhere or anytime that has managed to get thru and ENTIRE season and ENTIRE playoff run without getting SOME bad calls. that's just a part of the game.

As to shaq, he has SOME physical limitations that made free throw shooting difficult for him, he's worked VERY hard to overcome it and he's IMPROVED. intelligent people learn to get over their hatred and look at facts.

 

[pennylane]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Wow, 17 of 23. And oh, lets see. For this seasons playoffs his percentage is .609. Career playoff percentage is .529. Career percentage overall is .542. You're right. Absolutely stellar. You really got me there

and 3 rings. hmmmmm.

face it. you're just jealous because he keeps winning.

Irony is, I'm not even a lakers fan. Haven't been for a long time. I'm a Nets fan and when they meet the lakers in the finals i'm gonna be rooting for the Nets. but until then i can acknowledge Shaq's contribution to the NBA unlike poor sports like you.

BTW, In Wilt's Prime he changed the RULES of basketball because of his abilities. Sometimes you have physical anomolies that makes it difficult for others, so it happens.

Just because shaq is a freak of nature doesn't mean that he isn't a GREAT BBall player.

truth is all seven footers are freaks of nature.

I like how you completely stepped around my reply. I wasn't even really counting on a reply since the "wankers" disaper in the prescense of numbers. According to you that is.

Anyway, yes, he does have three rings. And he did get them completely on his own didn't he. No help or anything from one of the best guards in the history of the nba. Also it's not like the nba finals have been a foregone conclusion the last few years either. Whoever comes out of the west is winning. It's that simple. So you've got a team with arguably two of the top 5 players in the game, a league devoid of good big men, and no eastern conference competition and they've won three straight. No way...... Can't be

And if disliking a team because their completely lacking in class (exception of kobe and a few of the bench scrubs) makes you a poor sport than I guess that's what I am. If you meant anything else you're just diluded. I dislike the lakers because of who they are, not their rings.

Did you just call Shaq one of the top 5 players in the game? Thank you for acknowledging his skill. Because.... how can someone without any skill be one of the top 5 players in the game? No matter how big he is, he has to be pretty good doesn't he?

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: Ludacris
Never tasted a victory cigar? Spurs won the championship in 1999 right after they swept the LAKERS and JAILBLAZERS.


Puff-Puff-Pass

i think phil jackson put it best when he said the spurs championship in 1999 should have an asterix next to it. ahha.

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmsclI like how you completely stepped around my reply. I wasn't even really counting on a reply since the "wankers" disaper in the prescense of numbers. According to you that is.

Anyway, yes, he does have three rings. And he did get them completely on his own didn't he. No help or anything from one of the best guards in the history of the nba. Also it's not like the nba finals have been a foregone conclusion the last few years either. Whoever comes out of the west is winning. It's that simple. So you've got a team with arguably two of the top 5 players in the game, a league devoid of good big men, and no eastern conference competition and they've won three straight. No way...... Can't be

And if disliking a team because their completely lacking in class (exception of kobe and a few of the bench scrubs) makes you a poor sport than I guess that's what I am. If you meant anything else you're just diluded. I dislike the lakers because of who they are, not their rings.

you're entitled to dislike anyone you like. to claim, however, that shaq has NO TALENT or SKILL is ludicrous. To claim that Shaq won ONLY because of referreeing is ludicrous.

IF you want to say "I hate the lakers" fine your entitled.

IF you want to try and claim that the lakers and shaq somehow DIDN'T deserve to win, that's where i take exception. THEY DID WIN. and the won LEGITIMATELY. were there some bad calls?? name one championship anywhere or anytime that has managed to get thru and ENTIRE season and ENTIRE playoff run without getting SOME bad calls. that's just a part of the game.

As to shaq, he has SOME physical limitations that made free throw shooting difficult for him, he's worked VERY hard to overcome it and he's IMPROVED. intelligent people learn to get over their hatred and look at facts.

Here's a quote from my first post

I will defenitly admit that he's incredibly athletic for his size and he's got some decent moves

If you have trouble reading that's your issue. Don't put words into my mouth though.

Also, if you'll actually read my posts you'll see that nowhere did I say they did not deserve to win. There's a distinct difference between saying someone doesn't deserve it and saying that they did not do it with as stiff of competition as other 3 time champions have faced. Once again, another area where reading comprehension gets you in trouble.

As far as shaq getting better at his throws this is just another instance where you don't know what you're talking about. His first year in the nba he was .592. Of the TEN YEARS after that he only managed to have a higher percentage than his first year ONCE. That was this year when his percentage rose to an incredible .622. Yup, he's got incredibly better. Once again, you really got me there.

Anything else?

 

[Ludacris]

Yea, but if Phil Jackson would have won that year, he would have song a different tune. The guy can only win championships by inheriting someone else's great teams. He can't build one himself. Hell, the guy can't even coach. It's all about manipulating the refs to foul out all the other teams players.

 

[Ludacris]

By the way, I hate the Lakers because how they act and what they say on and off the court. They are cocky and classless from the coach all the way down to the players. Hell, Shaq actually thinks he's Superman. These guys don't ever lose gracefully, they always have to flap off their lips about how someone can't guard them and how the refs didn't call enough fouls for them. Then you start seeing the finger point about how bench players aren't contributing.


Bottom line is this:

1. They shouldn't have won the first championship but the Blazers choked plus Tim Duncan was hurt that year.
2. They weren't going to be denied the second year they won it.
3. The refs robbed the Kings in the western conference finals.

There you have it folks!

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: Ludacris
By the way, I hate the Lakers because how they act and what they say on and off the court. They are cocky and classless from the coach all the way down to the players. Hell, Shaq actually thinks he's Superman. These guys don't ever lose gracefully, they always have to flap off their lips about how someone can't guard them and how the refs didn't call enough fouls for them. Then you start seeing the finger point about how bench players aren't contributing.


Bottom line is this:

1. They shouldn't have won the first championship but the Blazers choked plus Tim Duncan was hurt that year.
2. They weren't going to be denied the second year they won it.
3. The refs robbed the Kings in the western conference finals.

There you have it folks!

ehe you're an idiot. it's obvious you don't watch enough laker games judging by your opinion. i'm not gonna waste my time trying to change you. you obviously root for your hometown team and that's cool. just don't make yourself look like an ass because YOU come out looking like a bandwagon fan (i.e. i root for the spurs and hate the lakers cuz they cheat!!!).

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: BamBam215

Originally posted by: Ludacris
By the way, I hate the Lakers because how they act and what they say on and off the court. They are cocky and classless from the coach all the way down to the players. Hell, Shaq actually thinks he's Superman. These guys don't ever lose gracefully, they always have to flap off their lips about how someone can't guard them and how the refs didn't call enough fouls for them. Then you start seeing the finger point about how bench players aren't contributing.


Bottom line is this:

1. They shouldn't have won the first championship but the Blazers choked plus Tim Duncan was hurt that year.
2. They weren't going to be denied the second year they won it.
3. The refs robbed the Kings in the western conference finals.

There you have it folks!

ehe you're an idiot. it's obvious you don't watch enough laker games judging by your opinion. i'm not gonna waste my time trying to change you. you obviously root for your hometown team and that's cool. just don't make yourself look like an ass because YOU come out looking like a bandwagon fan (i.e. i root for the spurs and hate the lakers cuz they cheat!!!).

Actually you're the idiot. I followed basketball very closely up til last year. If it wasn't for portland choking game 7 the lakers would not be close to where they are now. I doubt you're aware of this (bandwagon fans usually aren't) but managment was about to blow that team up at the end of that season if they didn't win one. Do you think the lakers would have three in a row with only shaq or kobe? I doubt it. The blazers are indirectly responsible for the three championships no matter how you look at it. So just do us a favor and go back to ordering your spurs gear just in case the lakers lose this year. Posts like the one above just show your true colors and lack of knowledge.

 

[gwlam12]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: BamBam215

Originally posted by: Ludacris
By the way, I hate the Lakers because how they act and what they say on and off the court. They are cocky and classless from the coach all the way down to the players. Hell, Shaq actually thinks he's Superman. These guys don't ever lose gracefully, they always have to flap off their lips about how someone can't guard them and how the refs didn't call enough fouls for them. Then you start seeing the finger point about how bench players aren't contributing.


Bottom line is this:

1. They shouldn't have won the first championship but the Blazers choked plus Tim Duncan was hurt that year.
2. They weren't going to be denied the second year they won it.
3. The refs robbed the Kings in the western conference finals.

There you have it folks!

ehe you're an idiot. it's obvious you don't watch enough laker games judging by your opinion. i'm not gonna waste my time trying to change you. you obviously root for your hometown team and that's cool. just don't make yourself look like an ass because YOU come out looking like a bandwagon fan (i.e. i root for the spurs and hate the lakers cuz they cheat!!!).

Actually you're the idiot. I followed basketball very closely up til last year. If it wasn't for portland choking game 7 the lakers would not be close to where they are now. I doubt you're aware of this (bandwagon fans usually aren't) but managment was about to blow that team up at the end of that season if they didn't win one. Do you think the lakers would have three in a row with only shaq or kobe? I doubt it. The blazers are indirectly responsible for the three championships no matter how you look at it. So just do us a favor and go back to ordering your spurs gear just in case the lakers lose this year. Posts like the one above just show your true colors and lack of knowledge.

You could also say that the Lakers are responsible for their own victory because of the fact that they DIDNT choke.

 

[sciencewhiz]

Originally posted by: Ludacris
Yea, but if Phil Jackson would have won that year, he would have song a different tune. The guy can only win championships by inheriting someone else's great teams. He can't build one himself. Hell, the guy can't even coach. It's all about manipulating the refs to foul out all the other teams players.

how many championships did the teams he inherited win before he inherited them?

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: BamBam215

Originally posted by: Ludacris
By the way, I hate the Lakers because how they act and what they say on and off the court. They are cocky and classless from the coach all the way down to the players. Hell, Shaq actually thinks he's Superman. These guys don't ever lose gracefully, they always have to flap off their lips about how someone can't guard them and how the refs didn't call enough fouls for them. Then you start seeing the finger point about how bench players aren't contributing.


Bottom line is this:

1. They shouldn't have won the first championship but the Blazers choked plus Tim Duncan was hurt that year.
2. They weren't going to be denied the second year they won it.
3. The refs robbed the Kings in the western conference finals.

There you have it folks!

ehe you're an idiot. it's obvious you don't watch enough laker games judging by your opinion. i'm not gonna waste my time trying to change you. you obviously root for your hometown team and that's cool. just don't make yourself look like an ass because YOU come out looking like a bandwagon fan (i.e. i root for the spurs and hate the lakers cuz they cheat!!!).

Actually you're the idiot. I followed basketball very closely up til last year. If it wasn't for portland choking game 7 the lakers would not be close to where they are now. I doubt you're aware of this (bandwagon fans usually aren't) but managment was about to blow that team up at the end of that season if they didn't win one. Do you think the lakers would have three in a row with only shaq or kobe? I doubt it. The blazers are indirectly responsible for the three championships no matter how you look at it. So just do us a favor and go back to ordering your spurs gear just in case the lakers lose this year. Posts like the one above just show your true colors and lack of knowledge.

WHOA your astounding sense of basketball knowledge really makes me feel inferior. Somehow the "other" team choking means the Laker didn't win the titles legitly? I thought winning the championship means you are the one to NOT choke? Hrm... By the way, when you're under that table during a management meeting, call me up and let me listen in too ok? You sound like you got the inside dirt.

 

[tkim]

for all u shaw haters... size in the nba isnt everything... look at stanley roberts and oliver miller.... they were big..couldnt do sh!T.

you can argue ALL u want... but most of the NBA world will agree (and have accroding to the mvp's and other awards he has won) that shaq is an unstopable force with skill and will go down as one of the games best.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: tkim
for all u shaw haters... size in the nba isnt everything... look at stanley roberts and oliver miller.... they were big..couldnt do sh!T.

you can argue ALL u want... but most of the NBA world will agree (and have accroding to the mvp's and other awards he has won) that shaq is an unstopable force with skill and will go down as one of the games best.

You got that right. Even Bill Russell admits that Shaq would dominate him if they had the chance to play each other in their primes.

Btw, if size (i.e. a high combination of weight and height) and not skill is a more important factor in determining how well a person would do in the NBA, then Arvydas Sabonis would be getting around 25 pts, 12-13 rebounds, and 2-3 blks per game. Guess what, his career averages are 12.0 pts, 7.3 rebounds, and 1.05 blks per game.

Yup, size is mostly why Shaq is so good, and why Sabonis will go down in history.

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: anxi80

Originally posted by: dethman
it's funny how when people don't get their way, they always look for a scapegoat. american culture i guess. no one wants to take or admit blame.

very nicely put. a team lost. deal with it. nobody is perfect to win every single game. lakers got shut down the first 2 games, didnt say anything. in fact, i came on here and said 'hats off to (insert team here), beat the lakers'. thats because i have faith in my team and know eventually they will prevail. but then we get lee harvey oswald/jfk conspiracists here saying this and that. oh well, lakes won, and im going to drive home happy because my team won.

didn't say anything? You must have missed Phil Jackson after the game. He whined and bitched about the refs. I was stunned that they didn't fine him...seeing as how another coach was fined just a few weeks before for criticizing officials. But it was Phil Jackson, what can you expect

 

[MrDingleDangle]

I just dont understand y reffing in the NBA is so inconsistant...its def. the worst of any sport...football and esp. hockey refs have it 10 times harder i think then basketball, yet they never make such drastically different calls...

if shaq is so hard to figure out what is a foul...they should sit down in the off season and watch game footage and decide together what is and what isnt a foul...

I also hate when people blame the lakers for the bad reffing...bad calls go both ways, if the lakers get more bad calls going their way, because shaq is so hard to ref, then blame the league, not the lakers...they are jsut playing their game as hard as they can

and the refs did not score the points...the lakers put, what 99 points worth of balls through the net...

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: anxi80

Originally posted by: dethman
it's funny how when people don't get their way, they always look for a scapegoat. american culture i guess. no one wants to take or admit blame.

very nicely put. a team lost. deal with it. nobody is perfect to win every single game. lakers got shut down the first 2 games, didnt say anything. in fact, i came on here and said 'hats off to (insert team here), beat the lakers'. thats because i have faith in my team and know eventually they will prevail. but then we get lee harvey oswald/jfk conspiracists here saying this and that. oh well, lakes won, and im going to drive home happy because my team won.

didn't say anything? You must have missed Phil Jackson after the game. He whined and bitched about the refs. I was stunned that they didn't fine him...seeing as how another coach was fined just a few weeks before for criticizing officials. But it was Phil Jackson, what can you expect

Which coach got fined for criticizing the refs? Are you talking about Pat Riley, who cussed at the refs (as far as I can remember) and claimed they were out to get him?

And Phil was complaining that in Game 1 Kobe and Shaq (Shaq mostly) were being aggressive and just weren't getting any foul calls. I kinda agree, since Shaq is frequently fouled on his lower back when he's trying to get position to post up.

 

[YaKuZa]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp

Originally posted by: anxi80

Originally posted by: dethman
it's funny how when people don't get their way, they always look for a scapegoat. american culture i guess. no one wants to take or admit blame.

very nicely put. a team lost. deal with it. nobody is perfect to win every single game. lakers got shut down the first 2 games, didnt say anything. in fact, i came on here and said 'hats off to (insert team here), beat the lakers'. thats because i have faith in my team and know eventually they will prevail. but then we get lee harvey oswald/jfk conspiracists here saying this and that. oh well, lakes won, and im going to drive home happy because my team won.

didn't say anything? You must have missed Phil Jackson after the game. He whined and bitched about the refs. I was stunned that they didn't fine him...seeing as how another coach was fined just a few weeks before for criticizing officials. But it was Phil Jackson, what can you expect

Which coach got fined for criticizing the refs? Are you talking about Pat Riley, who cussed at the refs (as far as I can remember) and claimed they were out to get him?

And Phil was complaining that in Game 1 Kobe and Shaq (Shaq mostly) were being aggressive and just weren't getting any foul calls. I kinda agree, since Shaq is frequently fouled on his lower back when he's trying to get position to post up.

Hm?...the most recent coach fining was with George Karl after that Kenyon Martin blockout against A. Mason at the free throw line.

Pat Riley's speech worked, the next game, the Heat got more calls than the other team.

I don't like how Kobe attacks the basket and expects to get a call every single time. That's just not realistic and I'm sure he doesn't get hit on every attempt.

 

[dethman]

Originally posted by: MrDingleDangle
I just dont understand y reffing in the NBA is so inconsistant...its def. the worst of any sport...football and esp. hockey refs have it 10 times harder i think then basketball, yet they never make such drastically different calls...

if shaq is so hard to figure out what is a foul...they should sit down in the off season and watch game footage and decide together what is and what isnt a foul...

they actually DO do this on the offseason in order to make sure calls are consistent.

as far as your comment about hockey and football, there are WAAAAY more calls in basketball than either sport, which would explain the higher number of perceived errors. everyone forgets about the 'good' and 'consistent' calls and only remembers the 'bad' ones. in yesterday's laker game there were 57 fouls called, far more than penalties in either hockey or football.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: tkim
for all u shaw haters... size in the nba isnt everything... look at stanley roberts and oliver miller.... they were big..couldnt do sh!T.

you can argue ALL u want... but most of the NBA world will agree (and have accroding to the mvp's and other awards he has won) that shaq is an unstopable force with skill and will go down as one of the games best.

You got that right. Even Bill Russell admits that Shaq would dominate him if they had the chance to play each other in their primes.

Btw, if size (i.e. a high combination of weight and height) and not skill is a more important factor in determining how well a person would do in the NBA, then Arvydas Sabonis would be getting around 25 pts, 12-13 rebounds, and 2-3 blks per game. Guess what, his career averages are 12.0 pts, 7.3 rebounds, and 1.05 blks per game.

Yup, size is mostly why Shaq is so good, and why Sabonis will go down in history.

Sabonis WAS that good in his prime. we only got to see him in the US well after his prime. when he played with the russian teams he was SCARY.

 

[Ludacris]

First of all, the refs bad calls usually determine the outcome of most games including the game yesterday with the Spurs. If the refs called the game half-way accurately, the Spurs win easily. As for Sabonis, of course he can't score 25 points when he isn't get enough touches and he is on a team full of quality players.

Everyone in here knows that the refs determines the winners of most games in the NBA including the one yesterday. Hell, let's go back to the Timberwolves game when the Wolves won barely but they had to overcome the horrible refs. Remember Kobe's getting fouled by a fantom which resulted in a 4-point play to send it to overtime? Do you remember Bill Walton yesterday commenting often about cleaning his glasses? He kept saying that because he couldn't see the fouls that were being called.

Look I know most of you guys like rooting for the defending champs and thats fine, but at least acknowledge the fact that the refs in the NBA suck. Hell, now I have to root for the refs and the Spurs next game to see if we can get the victory. Sad. It should be the players determining the outcome of the game.

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: Ludacris
First of all, the refs bad calls usually determine the outcome of most games including the game yesterday with the Spurs. If the refs called the game half-way accurately, the Spurs win easily. As for Sabonis, of course he can't score 25 points when he isn't get enough touches and he is on a team full of quality players.

Everyone in here knows that the refs determines the winners of most games in the NBA including the one yesterday. Hell, let's go back to the Timberwolves game when the Wolves won barely but they had to overcome the horrible refs. Remember Kobe's getting fouled by a fantom which resulted in a 4-point play to send it to overtime? Do you remember Bill Walton yesterday commenting often about cleaning his glasses? He kept saying that because he couldn't see the fouls that were being called.

Look I know most of you guys like rooting for the defending champs and thats fine, but at least acknowledge the fact that the refs in the NBA suck. Hell, now I have to root for the refs and the Spurs next game to see if we can get the victory. Sad. It should be the players determining the outcome of the game.

No not everyone in here knows the ref determines the outcome of the game. I think it's only you. There WILL be bad calls in an NBA game because 1) it's so fast pace 2) visual perspectives and blockage and 3) personal opinions on the varying type of contact. You're going to bring out what Bill Walton says as justification? I could also say that I heard Stu Lantz say on several occassion "most fans officiate with their heart and not with their eyes" as justification for the fact that people like you whine too much.


There will always be bad officiating because we rely on 3 people to make judgements on what is considered a foul. Some fouls are easy to discern and some are just iffy. But to say the refs/NBA are out to deliberately set up a game is pretty much wacko.