***Official Discussing the Merits of the Iraqi Conflict thread*** How many casualties are acceptable - on both sides?

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Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
I agree with one of the protestors I heard speaking, we shouldn't be bombing while inspections are going on, what if we bomb one of the inspectors??
rolleye.gif


Yes this was actually said and seems to me a fair representation of the average knowledge of the facts at hand for most anti-war protestors. Just based on principle there are always going to be 10-11% of any population against war. There would be NO CIRCUMSTANCES in which they would feel a war was the right solution.

Interesting how violent he peace-niks are though. My only other thought on them is they need to understand you can still support your troops while opposing the policy that placed them there, they are only following orders and deserve great repsect and amiration for their efforts.

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
<<Interesting how violent he peace-niks are though. My only other thought on them is they need to understand you can still support your troops while opposing the policy that placed them there, they are only following orders and deserve great repsect and amiration for their efforts.>>

I agree 100% with you. 100%. They're over there to do the job that's been handed to them. They've trained for this and I hope they can finish their job with as few casualties as possible.

Would you agree that it would also be nice if all of the warmongers (hey, if you can say peace-niks I can say warmongers) needed to understand that you can disagree with their cause while supporting their right to oppose this war? They are excersicizing their rights and don't deserve any contempt for doing so. Granted, those from both camps who step over the bounds and commit dastardly acts deserve to be frowned upon, but one should realize that the acts of a minority shouldn't be interpretted as condoned by the majority.

I would also like to point out that you seem to be falling into the trap of labelling all of those from the other side as violent. Would you agree that to label all of the millions of antiwar protesters violent because of the acts of a few (few=subjective term, I know) is a little short-sighted?
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
...
My only other thought on them is they need to understand you can still support your troops while opposing the policy that placed them there, they are only following orders and deserve great repsect and amiration for their efforts.

K. Tucholsky: Soldiers are potential murderers.

Do you also pay respect and admiration to murderers and their efforts to end lifes?

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
With a view to UN resolutions - especially with regard to the apparent similarities between Kosovo and Iraq.

Please someone correct me if I'm incorrect in my facts - as I haven't checked all of this in a while, but it is my understanding that.

No UN resolution authorising military action was passed with regard to Kosovo - so from the perspective of "The UN does not enforce its own resolutions - such as in Iraq" does not hold water here. Since, obviously with respect to Iraq, a resolution was passed authorising "serious consequences" the lack/existance of UN resolutions makes the comparison hard to justify in this case.

On the subject on whether to obey UN resolutions or not - and whether this is justifiable IMHO I think that:

1) No system is perfect - especially at this level.

2) The UN has certainly had instances (ie Kosovo) where it should have (IMHO) intervened and chose not to - but this does not necessarily make it irrelevant (see reason 1). There is much more to the UN than approving wars.

3) In this case I believe that even though it is debateable what "serious consequences" means - and that there was never the chance to gain a consensus to determine that fact through a 2nd resolution, the UN itself has not behaved improperly. I believe (as I guess you can tell from my many previous posts on this issue) that the credibility of the UN has been undermined for no good reason other than the imposition of a unilateral disarmament/war timetable. Other options were on the table at the outset - but this quickly changed when it became obvious that a disarmament timetable was not up for discussion by those applying military pressure to Saddam.

Thoughts (Alistar7 no doubt ;) )

Cheers,

Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: Acanthus
The UN is useless... all they do is squabble and waste time.

& decide who's limo they'll use to go to a $100 lunch in:|

I guess then you can get rid of just about all politicians, company directors, actors/actresses, etc? ;)

Andy
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: Alistar7
...
My only other thought on them is they need to understand you can still support your troops while opposing the policy that placed them there, they are only following orders and deserve great repsect and amiration for their efforts.

K. Tucholsky: Soldiers are potential murderers.

Do you also pay respect and admiration to murderers and their efforts to end lifes?

EVERYONE is a potential murderer...and yes I try to give respect for everyone until they show me they don't deserve....
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: Alistar7
...
My only other thought on them is they need to understand you can still support your troops while opposing the policy that placed them there, they are only following orders and deserve great repsect and amiration for their efforts.

K. Tucholsky: Soldiers are potential murderers.

Do you also pay respect and admiration to murderers and their efforts to end lifes?

Wow...what a thoroughly deep and insightful quote. Here, I have one for you too:

Women are potential prostitutes

There, so now since all women are potential prostitutes that means they now must be prostitutes.
rolleye.gif
 

C'DaleRider

Guest
Jan 13, 2000
3,048
0
0
CIA analysts do a CYA, telling the press, Don't blame the phony nuke docs on us! By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 1:37 PM PT


The CIA covers its ass today in both the Washington Post and the New York Times, further distancing itself from the forged documents the Bush administration forwarded to the United Nations to support its case that Iraq had attempted to purchase uranium. News that the documents were forged has given succor to Bush administration critics, who accuse the government of ginning up evidence against Iraq to justify war.


The story behind the forged documents and how they made their way from the United States to U.N. inspectors is important because it suggests the Bush administration is 1) incompetent; 2) stupid; 3) corrupt; or 4) all of the above.

Both the Post and Times stories sympathize with the CIA. Both portray the agency as bullied by the Bush administration but still having the balls to convey its doubts about the docs as they moved up the chain of command. The Post, which broke the early ground in this story, provides a more complete account of the documents' provenance and the paper trail they wended. One of the discredited documents was a forged letter dated July 2000 "apparently signed by the Niger president, discussing Iraq's agreement to purchase 500 tons of uranium oxide." A Nigerien diplomat gave the documents to Italian intelligence, which sent summaries of the them to the United States and Britian. (All news stories are mum about which agencies in Washington and London first fielded the summaries.)

The Post story, written by Dana Priest and Karen DeYoung, continues:

Two weeks after the Sept. 24 British publication, the Niger story appeared in a classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate, a summary of U.S. intelligence agencies' conclusions about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, although the report noted that the information had not been verified and the CIA had not confirmed that the uranium sale had gone through. [Emphasis added.]

The Times doesn't have anywhere near the goods the Post has, but packs its column inches with plenty of complaints from CIA analysts about administration meddling. The Times' James Risen isn't any more successful than the Post at getting anybody from the CIA on the record. He writes:

Analysts at the agency said they had felt pressured to make their intelligence reports on Iraq conform to Bush administration policies.

For months, a few C.I.A. analysts have privately expressed concerns to colleagues and Congressional officials that they have faced pressure in writing intelligence reports to emphasize links between Saddam Hussein's government and Al Qaeda.

"A lot of analysts have been upset about the way the Iraq-Al Qaeda case has been handled," said one intelligence official familiar with the debate. ?

"Several people have told me how distraught they have been about what has been going on," said one government official who said he had talked with several C.I.A. analysts. None of the analysts are willing to talk directly to news organizations, the official said.

Disputation over the forged documents isn't to end here, of course. With CIA analysts accusing the Bush administration of coercing them, the administration is likely to volley back in this internecine war fought on the battlefields of the nation's dailies. A glimmer of that coming clash appears in the last paragraph of the Post story, where a State Department spokesman flings the dead cat back over Foggy Bottom's fence toward Langley. The Post reports:

The State Department's December fact sheet, issued to point out glaring omissions in a declaration Iraq said accounted for all of its prohibited weapons, said the declaration "ignores efforts to procure uranium from Niger." Asked this week to comment on the fact sheet, a CIA spokesman referred questions on the matter to the State Department, where a spokesman said "everything we wrote in the fact sheet was cleared with the agency."

Still unanswered are these urgent questions: Who forged the documents? Given the documents' transparent inauthenticity, why were they given such credence? Who in the administration pushed the CIA to validate them (if it did)? Why didn't the CIA push back?

Linked here.


So, if the CIA's documents were forged apparently by the Bush admin., what other deceptions were/are told by Bushites to further the war cause?




 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: C'DaleRider
CIA analysts do a CYA, telling the press, Don't blame the phony nuke docs on us! By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 1:37 PM PT


The CIA covers its ass today in both the Washington Post and the New York Times, further distancing itself from the forged documents the Bush administration forwarded to the United Nations to support its case that Iraq had attempted to purchase uranium. News that the documents were forged has given succor to Bush administration critics, who accuse the government of ginning up evidence against Iraq to justify war.


The story behind the forged documents and how they made their way from the United States to U.N. inspectors is important because it suggests the Bush administration is 1) incompetent; 2) stupid; 3) corrupt; or 4) all of the above.

Both the Post and Times stories sympathize with the CIA. Both portray the agency as bullied by the Bush administration but still having the balls to convey its doubts about the docs as they moved up the chain of command. The Post, which broke the early ground in this story, provides a more complete account of the documents' provenance and the paper trail they wended. One of the discredited documents was a forged letter dated July 2000 "apparently signed by the Niger president, discussing Iraq's agreement to purchase 500 tons of uranium oxide." A Nigerien diplomat gave the documents to Italian intelligence, which sent summaries of the them to the United States and Britian. (All news stories are mum about which agencies in Washington and London first fielded the summaries.)

The Post story, written by Dana Priest and Karen DeYoung, continues:

Two weeks after the Sept. 24 British publication, the Niger story appeared in a classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate, a summary of U.S. intelligence agencies' conclusions about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, although the report noted that the information had not been verified and the CIA had not confirmed that the uranium sale had gone through. [Emphasis added.]

The Times doesn't have anywhere near the goods the Post has, but packs its column inches with plenty of complaints from CIA analysts about administration meddling. The Times' James Risen isn't any more successful than the Post at getting anybody from the CIA on the record. He writes:

Analysts at the agency said they had felt pressured to make their intelligence reports on Iraq conform to Bush administration policies.

For months, a few C.I.A. analysts have privately expressed concerns to colleagues and Congressional officials that they have faced pressure in writing intelligence reports to emphasize links between Saddam Hussein's government and Al Qaeda.

"A lot of analysts have been upset about the way the Iraq-Al Qaeda case has been handled," said one intelligence official familiar with the debate. ?

"Several people have told me how distraught they have been about what has been going on," said one government official who said he had talked with several C.I.A. analysts. None of the analysts are willing to talk directly to news organizations, the official said.

Disputation over the forged documents isn't to end here, of course. With CIA analysts accusing the Bush administration of coercing them, the administration is likely to volley back in this internecine war fought on the battlefields of the nation's dailies. A glimmer of that coming clash appears in the last paragraph of the Post story, where a State Department spokesman flings the dead cat back over Foggy Bottom's fence toward Langley. The Post reports:

The State Department's December fact sheet, issued to point out glaring omissions in a declaration Iraq said accounted for all of its prohibited weapons, said the declaration "ignores efforts to procure uranium from Niger." Asked this week to comment on the fact sheet, a CIA spokesman referred questions on the matter to the State Department, where a spokesman said "everything we wrote in the fact sheet was cleared with the agency."

Still unanswered are these urgent questions: Who forged the documents? Given the documents' transparent inauthenticity, why were they given such credence? Who in the administration pushed the CIA to validate them (if it did)? Why didn't the CIA push back?

Linked here.


So, if the CIA's documents were forged apparently by the Bush admin., what other deceptions were/are told by Bushites to further the war cause?

Like some cheese to go with your whine?
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Fencer128
With a view to UN resolutions - especially with regard to the apparent similarities between Kosovo and Iraq.

Please someone correct me if I'm incorrect in my facts - as I haven't checked all of this in a while, but it is my understanding that.

No UN resolution authorising military action was passed with regard to Kosovo - so from the perspective of "The UN does not enforce its own resolutions - such as in Iraq" does not hold water here. Since, obviously with respect to Iraq, a resolution was passed authorising "serious consequences" the lack/existance of UN resolutions makes the comparison hard to justify in this case.

On the subject on whether to obey UN resolutions or not - and whether this is justifiable IMHO I think that:

1) No system is perfect - especially at this level.

2) The UN has certainly had instances (ie Kosovo) where it should have (IMHO) intervened and chose not to - but this does not necessarily make it irrelevant (see reason 1). There is much more to the UN than approving wars.

3) In this case I believe that even though it is debateable what "serious consequences" means - and that there was never the chance to gain a consensus to determine that fact through a 2nd resolution, the UN itself has not behaved improperly. I believe (as I guess you can tell from my many previous posts on this issue) that the credibility of the UN has been undermined for no good reason other than the imposition of a unilateral disarmament/war timetable. Other options were on the table at the outset - but this quickly changed when it became obvious that a disarmament timetable was not up for discussion by those applying military pressure to Saddam.

Thoughts (Alistar7 no doubt ;) )

Cheers,

Andy

Anyone?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: Fencer128
With a view to UN resolutions - especially with regard to the apparent similarities between Kosovo and Iraq.

Please someone correct me if I'm incorrect in my facts - as I haven't checked all of this in a while, but it is my understanding that.

No UN resolution authorising military action was passed with regard to Kosovo - so from the perspective of "The UN does not enforce its own resolutions - such as in Iraq" does not hold water here. Since, obviously with respect to Iraq, a resolution was passed authorising "serious consequences" the lack/existance of UN resolutions makes the comparison hard to justify in this case.

On the subject on whether to obey UN resolutions or not - and whether this is justifiable IMHO I think that:

1) No system is perfect - especially at this level.

2) The UN has certainly had instances (ie Kosovo) where it should have (IMHO) intervened and chose not to - but this does not necessarily make it irrelevant (see reason 1). There is much more to the UN than approving wars.

3) In this case I believe that even though it is debateable what "serious consequences" means - and that there was never the chance to gain a consensus to determine that fact through a 2nd resolution, the UN itself has not behaved improperly. I believe (as I guess you can tell from my many previous posts on this issue) that the credibility of the UN has been undermined for no good reason other than the imposition of a unilateral disarmament/war timetable. Other options were on the table at the outset - but this quickly changed when it became obvious that a disarmament timetable was not up for discussion by those applying military pressure to Saddam.

Thoughts (Alistar7 no doubt ;) )

Cheers,

Andy

Anyone?

seems pretty accurate to me...
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: Fencer128
With a view to UN resolutions - especially with regard to the apparent similarities between Kosovo and Iraq.

Please someone correct me if I'm incorrect in my facts - as I haven't checked all of this in a while, but it is my understanding that.

No UN resolution authorising military action was passed with regard to Kosovo - so from the perspective of "The UN does not enforce its own resolutions - such as in Iraq" does not hold water here. Since, obviously with respect to Iraq, a resolution was passed authorising "serious consequences" the lack/existance of UN resolutions makes the comparison hard to justify in this case.

On the subject on whether to obey UN resolutions or not - and whether this is justifiable IMHO I think that:

1) No system is perfect - especially at this level.

2) The UN has certainly had instances (ie Kosovo) where it should have (IMHO) intervened and chose not to - but this does not necessarily make it irrelevant (see reason 1). There is much more to the UN than approving wars.

3) In this case I believe that even though it is debateable what "serious consequences" means - and that there was never the chance to gain a consensus to determine that fact through a 2nd resolution, the UN itself has not behaved improperly. I believe (as I guess you can tell from my many previous posts on this issue) that the credibility of the UN has been undermined for no good reason other than the imposition of a unilateral disarmament/war timetable. Other options were on the table at the outset - but this quickly changed when it became obvious that a disarmament timetable was not up for discussion by those applying military pressure to Saddam.

Thoughts (Alistar7 no doubt ;) )

Cheers,

Andy

Anyone?

seems pretty accurate to me...

:Q

Didn't expect that! ;)

Andy
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Fencer128

3) In this case I believe that even though it is debateable what "serious consequences" means - and that there was never the chance to gain a consensus to determine that fact through a 2nd resolution, the UN itself has not behaved improperly. I believe (as I guess you can tell from my many previous posts on this issue) that the credibility of the UN has been undermined for no good reason other than the imposition of a unilateral disarmament/war timetable. Other options were on the table at the outset - but this quickly changed when it became obvious that a disarmament timetable was not up for discussion by those applying military pressure to Saddam.


In Sept. when Powell took the situation to the UN France knew that a refusal of Iraq to comply with the inspections would result in a request for a second resolution with the use of forces. They agreed to that stipulation. France went back on it and effectively made the inspectors powerless by publicly removing that threat when they said they would veto any resolution that included it.

No, the UN has not acted improperly. Some of the nations that comprise the UN have acted improperly.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
In Sept. when Powell took the situation to the UN France knew that a refusal of Iraq to comply with the inspections would result in a request for a second resolution with the use of forces. They agreed to that stipulation. France went back on it and effectively made the inspectors powerless by publicly removing that threat when they said they would veto any resolution that included it.

No, the UN has not acted improperly. Some of the nations that comprise the UN have acted improperly.

I see your point - but is that a symptom of the "timetable" arguement I put forward in point 3 (and in many posts previously) rather than the cause of French "intransigance"?

Cheers,

Andy
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Mods think that I must post this in this thread (instead in a separate thread), so blame them, not me.

Does US torture it's prisoners? I'm not talking about Iraqi POW's, but Taleban and Al-Qaida prisoners? I'm asking because of this.

Some quotes:

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

Is it true? If it isn't what makes you think so? If it is true, is it OK?
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: Ornery
Oh dear, I just KNEW we should have givin Blix a little more time. Surely he would have uncovered this very quickly! Oh, and the French would have been so proud.

I could just imagine, Blix walking out from the complex, holding a few small vials over his head, exclaiming, "I've found something here, come look!" :D

But damn, I can't quite imagine the look on Jack Chirac's face. Hmmm, how might that look? :eek:

The question is: What kind of chemical plant? I mean, does the plant make VX-gas or fertilizers? There is a difference you know. Finding a chemical-plant proves nothing. If they find out that it was used to make WMD's, then we are talking!
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: Ornery
Oh dear, I just KNEW we should have givin Blix a little more time. Surely he would have uncovered this very quickly! Oh, and the French would have been so proud.

I could just imagine, Blix walking out from the complex, holding a few small vials over his head, exclaiming, "I've found something here, come look!" :D

But damn, I can't quite imagine the look on Jack Chirac's face. Hmmm, how might that look? :eek:

The question is: What kind of chemical plant? I mean, does the plant make VX-gas or fertilizers? There is a difference you know. Finding a chemical-plant proves nothing. If they find out that it was used to make WMD's, then we are talking!

I like the BBC stance on issues like these. Here's the conjecture - either way - we're just waiting for the hard facts. (that goes for claims of SCUD! too).

Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Mods think that I must post this in this thread (instead in a separate thread), so blame them, not me.

Does US torture it's prisoners? I'm not talking about Iraqi POW's, but Taleban and Al-Qaida prisoners? I'm asking because of this.

Some quotes:

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

Is it true? If it isn't what makes you think so? If it is true, is it OK?

IMHO I find it difficult to not believe that the camp X-ray detainees are POW's. So, IMHO they should be treated as such. With respect to that I would hope that the US forces are capable of monitoring and enforcing the Geneva convention. Where appropriate I would also hope (and believe this has already happened/happening?) independant observers such as the international red cross should be actively involved. At the end of the day there's not much else that can be done without hard evidence of such illegal activity.

Cheers,

Andy
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Fencer128
In Sept. when Powell took the situation to the UN France knew that a refusal of Iraq to comply with the inspections would result in a request for a second resolution with the use of forces. They agreed to that stipulation. France went back on it and effectively made the inspectors powerless by publicly removing that threat when they said they would veto any resolution that included it.

No, the UN has not acted improperly. Some of the nations that comprise the UN have acted improperly.

I see your point - but is that a symptom of the "timetable" arguement I put forward in point 3 (and in many posts previously) rather than the cause of French "intransigance"?

Cheers,

Andy

Resolution 1441 had the words "final chance" in it. How does a timetable fit into a final chance? Iraq was either going to meet the requirements or not. They didn't. Dragging it out further,giving the impression of a split UN., declaring that force would not be used under any circumstance undermined the entire process. Once that was done there was no other choice but force.

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Resolution 1441 had the words "final chance" in it. How does a timetable fit into a final chance? Iraq was either going to meet the requirements or not. They didn't. Dragging it out further,giving the impression of a split UN., declaring that force would not be used under any circumstance undermined the entire process. Once that was done there was no other choice but force.

2. To afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the council.

Final chance as part of an inspection regime. As with my point 3, I can't see how your answer effectively contradicts what I said. The "intransigance" only comes later when it is obvious as to the fact that the US/UK aren't preapared to accept any timetable for inspections other than their own - ie from a French, etc. point of view disregard for the UN process ---> unconditional veto.

You are correct that once the "unconditional veto" came about - both sides were well "dug in" and war was on the cards - but up until that point it was a different story.

Cheers,

Andy
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
When did France dig in and declare the would veto resolutions. I'm at work and can't find the reference right now but I believe the first reference is all the way back in Jan.