**OFFICIAL** Diablo 3 Thread

[darkewaffle]

I mean why can't they fix the bugs that allow duping to happen.

You're talking about, at the very least, tens of thousands of lines of code and almost an infinite number of testcases. A lot of it isn't even a result of the game itself but rather the medium of communication; TCP/IP. Lag, desyncs, packet modification and more all open the door for a potential dupe or bug but can't be prevented by code, they can only try to 'trap' as much of it as possible. Catching every single one is basically an impossible task without devoting an extraordinary amount of resources.

Plus there's way more people trying to dupe than there are developers trying to prevent it 😀

 

[smackababy]

You're talking about, at the very least, tens of thousands of lines of code and almost an infinite number of testcases. A lot of it isn't even a result of the game itself but rather the medium of communication; TCP/IP. Lag, desyncs, packet modification and more all open the door for a potential dupe or bug but can't be prevented by code, they can only try to 'trap' as much of it as possible. Catching every single one is basically an impossible task without devoting an extraordinary amount of resources.

Plus there's way more people trying to dupe than there are developers trying to prevent it 😀

They learned from D2 to verify the legitimacy of the packets sent to their servers, but yes, no complex program (especially game) will be completely bug free. And when you have millions of people doing every possible scenario, it is rather impossible to fix them all before release and even then, they can only fix so many per patch cycle.

Most dupes are only around for a little bit, but with the extremely fast ability to share information, once one is discovered, thousands of people can know about it in minutes, thus, the duping is rampant.

there's an interesting read on the legacy of (in)famous D3 dupes:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9423113354

my biggest problem with the economy is the rampant nature of gold botting that has been present since pretty much day 1. If the gold you found while playing was actually worth something, there would be a more feasible, and steady (i.e. less RNG), upgrade path for many players.

I hit the 100 million gold picked up achievement a little while back, but even if I had every last "cent" of it available, i couldn't buy an upgrade at this point.

I can't read this, but since it is on the bnet forums, I am going to assume it is 90% filled with people whining about how bad the game is despite them putting a thousand hours into it, 9.99% filled with "nerf barbs omg" crybabies and maybe 1 or 2 posts that are actually intelligent. >_>

And as far as gold pick up, I haven't hit the 100 million gold picked up. I am no where close. But since I played the AH from like day one, I've always ignored gold piles.

 

[Grey!matter]

finally got to 100, i got to 97 and didn't play for a month and a half

 

[Craig234]

They learned from D2 to verify the legitimacy of the packets sent to their servers, but yes, no complex program (especially game) will be completely bug free. And when you have millions of people doing every possible scenario, it is rather impossible to fix them all before release and even then, they can only fix so many per patch cycle.

Bug free and dup free are not the same thing.

How many times does your bank accidentally 'dup' a withdrawal and give you twice the money at the ATM?

There is no reason IMO for there to be 'dup' bugs.

 

[Craig234]

You're talking about, at the very least, tens of thousands of lines of code and almost an infinite number of testcases. A lot of it isn't even a result of the game itself but rather the medium of communication; TCP/IP. Lag, desyncs, packet modification and more all open the door for a potential dupe or bug but can't be prevented by code, they can only try to 'trap' as much of it as possible. Catching every single one is basically an impossible task without devoting an extraordinary amount of resources.

Plus there's way more people trying to dupe than there are developers trying to prevent it 😀

I don't find any of that persuasive. I think dups can be prevented.

 

[redrider4life4]

You don't think duping is a huge issue? When one guy gets a GG 1H and dupes 9-10 of them it inflates the economy and ruins the game. Right now there are AH trackers that track these duped items so only if it is put on the AH can you see.

I'd imagine a good portion of dupes are sold off the AH so it makes the problem even bigger if you are smart enough to dupe you are smart enough to not take a 15% tax.

The reason blizzard won't rollback isn't because of "hurting the innocent player" but so they don't have to give back their profit of illegitimate items bought off the gold ah.

 

[darkewaffle]

You don't think duping is a huge issue? When one guy gets a GG 1H and dupes 9-10 of them it inflates the economy and ruins the game. Right now there are AH trackers that track these duped items so only if it is put on the AH can you see.

I'd imagine a good portion of dupes are sold off the AH so it makes the problem even bigger if you are smart enough to dupe you are smart enough to not take a 15% tax.

The reason blizzard won't rollback isn't because of "hurting the innocent player" but so they don't have to give back their profit of illegitimate items bought off the gold ah.

Dupes actually cause deflation; you're taking a scarce resource and making it more plentiful. That's why so many people believe drop rates in D2 are actually far higher than they truly are.

And what profit? It's the GAH.

 

[smackababy]

I don't find any of that persuasive. I think dups can be prevented.

Are you a software developer? And have you ever made something in the scope of a game? Well, I am, and there is no such thing as bug free software.

 

[redrider4life4]

Dupes actually cause deflation; you're taking a scarce resource and making it more plentiful. That's why so many people believe drop rates in D2 are actually far higher than they truly are.

And what profit? It's the GAH.

You realize most of the top items (duped items) are sold on the Real money ah?

And inflation is happening, not deflation, an item for a billion gold a few months ago is now worth 5-10 billion. A close to perfect roll tal rashas was about 1.5-2 billion earlier in the year is now worth way more than that.

 

[Craig234]

Are you a software developer? And have you ever made something in the scope of a game? Well, I am, and there is no such thing as bug free software.

You are having problems with reading comprehension. I specifically said not bug free.

 

[smackababy]

You are having problems with reading comprehension. I specifically said not bug free.

What exactly do you think dupes come from? Bugs. Do you propose they test every possible scenario a user might engage in before they release? Every fix they put in, also requires a complete retest of the system, because another bug might have been introduced.

So, again, do you understand your "oh dupes (bugs) are unacceptable" stance is unrealistic for the modern world. Sure, you're hello world program might be completely bug free, but any complex system is going to have some. With extremely popular games like Diablo, they are found much faster and exploited much more frequently.

 

[darkewaffle]

You realize most of the top items (duped items) are sold on the Real money ah?

The reason blizzard won't rollback isn't because of "hurting the innocent player" but so they don't have to give back their profit of illegitimate items bought off the gold ah.

Much of the truly godly gear is technically "worth" (or rather, valued) at well above the RMAH cap values. Selling it for "only" $250 is incurring a serious opportunity cost in many cases. Blizzard gets nothing from that. But that's only applicable if an item isn't duped, or is duped in 'moderation'; which it does seem that some "producers" do attempt to keep a handle on to not undermine their own efforts. If they dupe a little, I think they're 'over' the RMAH. If they dupe a lot, I think they're 'under' it (though it will depend on the item). I think the RMAH doesn't really meet the needs of either approach. The RMAH can't accommodate the super high prices of the former and simply doesn't have the user base to benefit the latter.

And inflation is happening, not deflation, an item for a billion gold a few months ago is now worth 5-10 billion. A close to perfect roll tal rashas was about 1.5-2 billion earlier in the year is now worth way more than that.

When one guy gets a GG 1H and dupes 9-10 of them it inflates the economy and ruins the game

Inflation certainly happens, it's inevitable (and the gold 'incident' caused a lot of fluctuation). But duping is not the cause of it. It doesn't matter how perfect an item is, if there are multiples of them available instead of one the value of them (per piece) is going to plummet. You're talking about two completely separate market forces here.

Imagine if someone duped that Tal Rasha's chest and suddenly there were thousands more of them available. Still worth billions? Unlikely.

 

[Cappuccino]

If anyone needs help killing Ubers, MP10 farming, normal farming, and Brawling etc feel free to add me. Pikachu#1964 🙂

 

[smackababy]

If anyone needs help killing Ubers, MP10 farming, normal farming, and Brawling etc feel free to add me. Pikachu#1964 🙂

Am I to assume correctly that you're on EU?

 

[Craig234]

What exactly do you think dupes come from? Bugs. Do you propose they test every possible scenario a user might engage in before they release? Every fix they put in, also requires a complete retest of the system, because another bug might have been introduced.

So, again, do you understand your "oh dupes (bugs) are unacceptable" stance is unrealistic for the modern world. Sure, you're hello world program might be completely bug free, but any complex system is going to have some. With extremely popular games like Diablo, they are found much faster and exploited much more frequently.

Of course dupes come from bugs. It is possible to make a specific function in code pretty tightly controlled for bugs - I already asked how often your ATM 'dupes' the cash for you.

The section of code giving items to people IMO can be tightened up given the complexity, the resources available to do so.

You're exaggerating the issue of 'scenarios'. It's a pretty specific operation.

 

[Craig234]

Inflation/deflation around dupes is pretty simple.

Currency duplication leads to inflation; item duping to deflation.

If there are 10 items and 10 gold pieces, each item is worth 1 gold.

If duping results in 100 gold pieces, each item increase in price to 10 gold; that's inflation, currency less valuable.

If supig results in 100 items still with 10 gold, each gold buys 10 items. That's deflation, currency more valuable.

The issue is less which word is correct than the harm to the economy/balance.

 

[smackababy]

Of course dupes come from bugs. It is possible to make a specific function in code pretty tightly controlled for bugs - I already asked how often your ATM 'dupes' the cash for you.

The section of code giving items to people IMO can be tightened up given the complexity, the resources available to do so.

You're exaggerating the issue of 'scenarios'. It's a pretty specific operation.

ATMs have a very limited complexity. The scenarios of giving money are very small. In Diablo, all the dupes I've known about are not from a monster dropping a certain item, but things like canceling a RMAH auction of a specific amount of gold caused it to deposit twice the amount. Now, this should have been caught, yes, but something as arbitrarily increasing the maximum amount of gold able to be sold on the AH shouldn't have that effect.

It isn't just the section of code giving people items that is causing the dupes. It could be the section writing the information to the database, and the actual code giving the items is working perfectly. It could also be a place where it is simply added to memory on the server twice. All of which are very hard to test. These dupes are almost never as easy as the gold dupe that occurred. It usually involves doing a few things in a specific order the developers had not tested.

 

[darkewaffle]

I already asked how often your ATM 'dupes' the cash for you.
.

When it malfunctions and dispenses $120 when you asked for $100? Rarely, but it absolutely happens. Even simple machines can screw up; they're not perfect, they're fault tolerant.

 

[Cappuccino]

Am I to assume correctly that you're on EU?

Yep, EU.

 

[sweenish]

finally got to 100, i got to 97 and didn't play for a month and a half

The duping discussion is fairly heated, I guess.

Congratulations, though. That's a big deal, and I'm wondering my 60/4 barb will ever get there at this point.

 

[Craig234]

When it malfunctions and dispenses $120 when you asked for $100? Rarely, but it absolutely happens. Even simple machines can screw up; they're not perfect, they're fault tolerant.

Not talking about a mechanical problem.

 

[darkewaffle]

Not talking about a mechanical problem.

How do you know it's mechanical? It can be caused by a hundred different things, physical or logical. Which is kind of the point.

 

[Craig234]

How do you know it's mechanical? It can be caused by a hundred different things, physical or logical. Which is kind of the point.

No, it can't.

Mechanical and software are quite a bit of the list of things that could cause that.

 

[smackababy]

No, it can't.

Mechanical and software are quite a bit of the list of things that could cause that.

I will ask again because you did not answer the first time. Are you experience in software develop on any scale? Have you ever worked on embedded systems (like ATMs) or large scale software projects like games?

I feels as if you don't exactly understand the scope of what you're arguing against.

 

[Craig234]

I will ask again because you did not answer the first time. Are you experience in software develop on any scale? Have you ever worked on embedded systems (like ATMs) or large scale software projects like games?

I feels as if you don't exactly understand the scope of what you're arguing against.

I think I do, and don't care to share the information you ask.