Official 2016 NBA Off Season Thread!

[manly]

He's below top 5 as center and on edge of top 3 for forward depending on how much you appropriately penalize him for limited time at that position.

lmao so because he was both a great PF and C, you penalize him at each position? Even if he's not a top-5 Center all-time, he's certainly top 10. And by and large, people consider Tim the greatest PF ever. Not too shabby, in other words.

Since it only applies to last 2 minutes of each period, how much of a difference will it really make? IMO, it just rewards the bad FT shooters....

IMO it won't make much difference.

 

[SP33Demon]

durant + curry + thompson + green = too many cooks

I don't think so, curry will now have even more assists and less points since he won't have to shoulder the load in the 4th anymore. Will be fun to see him passing more and with KD added to the lineup of death, everyone (including curry) should get more open looks. Teams can't really double team steph anymore because that now leaves TWO awesome shooters open (not including Draymond), and one whose shot is virtually impossible to block because he's 6-9. Not to mention the defensive presence+rebounding that KD brings. Nasty, nasty team. Cleveland was able to double an injured steph and keep an eye on Klay and let Draymond burn them. Now that strategy goes out the window.

 

[SP33Demon]

Let's see:

19 plus years with a HoF legendary player as the centerpiece for perhaps now the most successful franchise in history over that same 19 year span--a barely-matched reign of success that is only comparable to those Bill Russell Celtics teams of the 60s. (The only reason you can't say that success=profit in terms of SA is because, well, market in SA. Put a guy like Duncan on the Celtics, Nicks, or Lakers over that span and give them Pop.)

Or 2 guys that, between them, have 1 more championship and 3+ (2 teams twice) being carried by 2-3 year spans of success, bookended by incalculable misery.

So yeah, any GM worth their salt would build a franchise around a guy like Tim Duncan vs LeBron or Curry.

Bear in mind you are criticizing my point from a GM perspective (which is exactly the argument I am making)--not a pure talent and skill of the individual player(s) perspective. These are two very different issues.

Nobody is building a team around a center who can't shoot (or open up the court for) the 3, nobody. You build around Lebron because of his size+all around game and you build around Curry because of his GOAT shooting ability + this era's definition of fouls. Even more important, TD isn't drawing a double team like LJ and Curry and that is how teams win (ball movement, find the open man especially a 3). TD would not be a catalyst for such a strategy so there's no point in building around him. Older eras where more contact was allowed, maybe.

 

[smackababy]

Nobody is building a team around Curry. GS is building AROUND Curry not showing up in big games.

 

[SP33Demon]

Nobody is building a team around Curry. GS is building AROUND Curry not showing up in big games.

^hahahaha. Same thing people said about Lebron after Curry won a ring for GS and now flipflop in the praise for Lebron. You fairweather fans are great.

 

[manly]

Let's see:

19 plus years with a HoF legendary player as the centerpiece for perhaps now the most successful franchise in history over that same 19 year span--a barely-matched reign of success that is only comparable to those Bill Russell Celtics teams of the 60s. (The only reason you can't say that success=profit in terms of SA is because, well, market in SA. Put a guy like Duncan on the Celtics, Nicks, or Lakers over that span and give them Pop.)

Or 2 guys that, between them, have 1 more championship and 3+ (2 teams twice) being carried by 2-3 year spans of success, bookended by incalculable misery.

So yeah, any GM worth their salt would build a franchise around a guy like Tim Duncan vs LeBron or Curry.

Bear in mind you are criticizing my point from a GM perspective (which is exactly the argument I am making)--not a pure talent and skill of the individual player(s) perspective. These are two very different issues.

LeBron alone has 4 regular season MVP awards. If you're building a team now, I highly doubt half the NBA's GMs pick Timmy over LeBron in a mock draft. If you're building a team in the late 1990s, you'd have a stronger case for a big man as the centerpiece.

So for you to insinuate most GMs* would take Timmy over LB+Steph is insanely laughable. Charles Barkeley would be proud at that level of commentary!

* Maybe you aren't implying that at all. A lot of GMs are not "worth their salt."

In other news, Draymond appears all set for rough & tumble Rio!

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...-punched-draymond-green-golden-state-warriors

 

[smackababy]

^hahahaha. Same thing people said about Lebron after Curry won a ring for GS and now flipflop in the praise for Lebron. You fairweather fans are great.

Wtf are you talking about? Literally, nobody said Lebron didn't show up in the finals last year. In fact, the opposite argument was used. He had no support. Nobody flipflopped on shit but you.

 

[SP33Demon]

Draymond is the modern day mini version Dennis Rodman, why does this surprise you? Amazing talent but not all there, and the kid probably deserved it anyway. But you can't act that way as an NBA superstar as he will learn.

 

[SP33Demon]

Wtf are you talking about? Literally, nobody said Lebron didn't show up in the finals last year. In fact, the opposite argument was used. He had no support. Nobody flipflopped on shit but you.

The same question gets asked every year, and people said they would take Curry or (insert name here like Kobe) to start a franchise over Lebron since he's a ballhog (30%FG shooting in last year's Finals? UHHHHH). This year it's Lebron. Fairweather fans will always flipflop and you strike me as the fanboy type. Omg Kobe, omg curry, omg lebron! Whoever has won in the past year, that's their guy. Don't be that person.

 

[zinfamous]

LeBron alone has 4 regular season MVP awards. If you're building a team now, I highly doubt half the NBA's GMs pick Timmy over LeBron in a mock draft. If you're building a team in the late 1990s, you'd have a stronger case for a big man as the centerpiece.

So for you to insinuate most GMs* would take Timmy over LB+Steph is insanely laughable. Charles Barkeley would be proud at that level of commentary!

* Maybe you aren't implying that at all. A lot of GMs are not "worth their salt."

In other news, Draymond appears all set for rough & tumble Rio!

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...-punched-draymond-green-golden-state-warriors

So, a lot of you guys seem to think Cleveland, Miami, and GS have been more successful franchises over the last 19 years year-to-year than has SA?

That's interesting.

You guys understand the GM's job, right?

:hmm:

 

[vi edit]

The same question gets asked every year, and people said they would take Curry or (insert name here like Kobe) to start a franchise over Lebron since he's a ballhog (30%FG shooting in last year's Finals? UHHHHH). This year it's Lebron. Fairweather fans will always flipflop and you strike me as the fanboy type. Omg Kobe, omg curry, omg lebron! Whoever has won in the past year, that's their guy. Don't be that person.

I don't know anyone that has ever said they would take Curry over Lebron to start a franchise. And I don't think I've ever really heard Lebron and ball hog used in the same sentence. That would be reserved for Kobe or Westbook or James Hardin. The only knock on Lebron at *this point* is that he's getting up there in age and has an insane number of minutes on his legs. Especially for the style of game he plays.

 

[smackababy]

Speed demon, I don't think you've said a single correct thing in this thread. Curry is never put above Lebron. And Draymond is nowhere near a "mini" Rodman. They are the same size and one dwarfs the other in terms of talent, and it ain't Draymond

 

[chitwood]

I don't think so, curry will now have even more assists and less points since he won't have to shoulder the load in the 4th anymore. Will be fun to see him passing more and with KD added to the lineup of death, everyone (including curry) should get more open looks. Teams can't really double team steph anymore because that now leaves TWO awesome shooters open (not including Draymond), and one whose shot is virtually impossible to block because he's 6-9. Not to mention the defensive presence+rebounding that KD brings. Nasty, nasty team. Cleveland was able to double an injured steph and keep an eye on Klay and let Draymond burn them. Now that strategy goes out the window.

They also lost:

Harrison Barnes
Festus Ezeli
Mo Speights
Leandro Barbosa
Andrew Bogut

They may be "nasty", but they are extremely shallow, skinny (after getting the shit beat out of them in the finals, they now are less physical) and they have no center outside of Anderson Varejao (LOL)

I'd also be wary of chemistry issues, minutes played on a team with zero depth, and Draymond Green dick punching.

 

[Blackjack200]

So, a lot of you guys seem to think Cleveland, Miami, and GS have been more successful franchises over the last 19 years year-to-year than has SA?

That's interesting.

You guys understand the GM's job, right?

:hmm:

You think that taking James + Curry over Duncan means that you'd take the Cavs/Heat/Warriors over the Spurs?

 

[manly]

So, a lot of you guys seem to think Cleveland, Miami, and GS have been more successful franchises over the last 19 years year-to-year than has SA?

That's interesting.

You guys understand the GM's job, right?

:hmm:

Nice strawman.

I'm not comparing franchises at all. I'm saying you're crazy to think more than a handful of NBA GMs would take Timmy over LB+Steph to build a team. I'm conceding a few might do it for whatever reasons; not to knock Phil Jackson but he's very old so he might go old school.

Like I said, I don't think even a majority of NBA GMs would pick Timmy over LeBron in a mock draft. It's debatable but LeBron's 14 seasons as a whole are already better than Duncan's 19. And that's not to knock TD.

 

[lupi]

lmao so because he was both a great PF and C, you penalize him at each position? Even if he's not a top-5 Center all-time, he's certainly top 10. And by and large, people consider Tim the greatest PF ever. Not too shabby, in other words.


IMO it won't make much difference.

Didn't say he wasn't a top 10, and he shifted when he wasn't as capable at the position which doesn't mean his abilities at the previous position automatically apply to the new.

And it was great when Patrick said the same thing on radio yesterday.

 

[lupi]

Let's see:

19 plus years with a HoF legendary player as the centerpiece for perhaps now the most successful franchise in history over that same 19 year span--a barely-matched reign of success that is only comparable to those Bill Russell Celtics teams of the 60s. (The only reason you can't say that success=profit in terms of SA is because, well, market in SA. Put a guy like Duncan on the Celtics, Nicks, or Lakers over that span and give them Pop.)

Or 2 guys that, between them, have 1 more championship and 3+ (2 teams twice) being carried by 2-3 year spans of success, bookended by incalculable misery.

So yeah, any GM worth their salt would build a franchise around a guy like Tim Duncan vs LeBron or Curry.

Bear in mind you are criticizing my point from a GM perspective (which is exactly the argument I am making)--not a pure talent and skill of the individual player(s) perspective. These are two very different issues.

You're fooling yourself if you think you could poll all GMS and not get a vast majority of them to pick prime LBJ over duncan. A guy in top 3 of all time players, best player at multiple positions, or the guy who fit in great in a system.

 

[lupi]

They also lost:

Harrison Barnes
Festus Ezeli
Mo Speights
Leandro Barbosa
Andrew Bogut

They may be "nasty", but they are extremely shallow, skinny (after getting the shit beat out of them in the finals, they now are less physical) and they have no center outside of Anderson Varejao (LOL)

I'd also be wary of chemistry issues, minutes played on a team with zero depth, and Draymond Green dick punching.

The sheer amount of people they lost compared to the gains will make at least the first half of the season very interesting.

 

[SP33Demon]

Speed demon, I don't think you've said a single correct thing in this thread. Curry is never put above Lebron. And Draymond is nowhere near a "mini" Rodman. They are the same size and one dwarfs the other in terms of talent, and it ain't Draymond

Yeah, no Hall of Famers have said it this year. Time to move the goalposts or try to bash the sources.:biggrin: Good luck.
Patrick Ewing, 3/6/2016:
Q. If you were a head coach with your own franchise and you somehow could choose between LeBron James or Steph Curry to start a new team, who would you pick?
The way the game is played now, I’d take Steph.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-says-blog/article64046382.html

Others have picked him over Kobe.
"Robert "Big Shot Rob" Horry:

Former NBA player Robert Horry was put on the spot during an interview with Justin Termine on SiriusXM NBA Radio when asked to choose between Stephen Curry and Kobe Bryant in his prime as the most dangerous offensive player.

Horry, who played six and a half years and won three NBA championships next to Bryant, surprisingly picked Curry.

“Kobe in his prime really wasn’t that great of a three-point shooter,” Horry said. “He was a drive, get-to-the-hole, dunk-on-you type of guy. Steph can drive and float you. He can shoot it from half court. You have to guard him at all times."

http://hoopshype.com/2016/02/05/rob...fensive-player-than-kobe-bryant-in-his-prime/

Others have crowned him the new Magic Johnson (who was definitely better than Lebron):
Jerry "The Logo" West:
...calls Steph Curry "the most unique player I've ever seen." Says Curry replaced Magic for him in that regard.
7:11 PM - 7 Jun 2015

Kobe saying Steph is the toughest in the league to guard (even over Lebron):
Who's the toughest NBA player to guard right now? Kobe: "It has to be Steph Curry. Has to be. Moves so well w/o the ball, great in isos."

So your argument gets blown to bits. Lots of HOFers who would take Curry over Lebron.

Regarding Rodman vs Draymond, even coach Kerr said it:
"I think Draymond [Green] has a lot of Dennis Rodman in him.”
Rodman had 4 better seasons than Draymond's 2015 year, but not this year. Draymond posted a 19.3 PER, Rodman's best season (87-88 Pistons) was 17.4. Try harder though. Draymond is now more valuable than Rodman ever was in his prime.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html

 

[QueBert]

The same question gets asked every year, and people said they would take Curry or (insert name here like Kobe) to start a franchise over Lebron since he's a ballhog (30%FG shooting in last year's Finals? UHHHHH). This year it's Lebron. Fairweather fans will always flipflop and you strike me as the fanboy type. Omg Kobe, omg curry, omg lebron! Whoever has won in the past year, that's their guy. Don't be that person.

Lebron in the 2015 finals FG % was .398 in what world is that 30%? Curry was .443 which is better, but not by a whole lot. It's pointless to debate over though seeing that Curry didn't show up in the finals where James had the best finals performance ever seen.

 

[smackababy]

Yeah, no Hall of Famers have said it this year. Time to move the goalposts or try to bash the sources.:biggrin: Good luck.
Patrick Ewing, 3/6/2016:
Q. If you were a head coach with your own franchise and you somehow could choose between LeBron James or Steph Curry to start a new team, who would you pick?
The way the game is played now, I’d take Steph.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-says-blog/article64046382.html

Others have picked him over Kobe.
"Robert "Big Shot Rob" Horry:

http://hoopshype.com/2016/02/05/rob...fensive-player-than-kobe-bryant-in-his-prime/

Others have crowned him the new Magic Johnson (who was definitely better than Lebron):
Jerry "The Logo" West:
...calls Steph Curry "the most unique player I've ever seen." Says Curry replaced Magic for him in that regard.
7:11 PM - 7 Jun 2015

Kobe saying Steph is the toughest in the league to guard (even over Lebron):
Who's the toughest NBA player to guard right now? Kobe: "It has to be Steph Curry. Has to be. Moves so well w/o the ball, great in isos."

So your argument gets blown to bits. Lots of HOFers who would take Curry over Lebron.

Regarding Rodman vs Draymond, even coach Kerr said it:
"I think Draymond [Green] has a lot of Dennis Rodman in him.”
Rodman had 4 better seasons than Draymond's 2015 year, but not this year. Draymond posted a 19.3 PER, Rodman's best season (87-88 Pistons) was 17.4. Try harder though. Draymond is now more valuable than Rodman ever was in his prime.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html

For starters, nobody is going to talk shit about the hot player in the NBA at the moment. Nobody that wants to keep their job. No one is building a team around Curry, except by getting players who won't crumble in the finals to help them win.

And, I love it. "Jerry West said..." Jerry West works and has an ownership stake the, none other, than the Golden State Warriors.

And your quotes are stupid. Asking someone "who is the best offensive player between Curry and Kobe" isn't "who would you build a team around Curry or Lebron".

"Coach Kerr said..." Yeah, the coach of the player he is talking about isn't going to be like "You know, Draymond, he's okay, but he ain't nothing on Rodman or Duncan or any other big man."

And, say whatever you want, Rodman isn't getting destroyed on the boards and on defense by Tristian "I look like Michael B. Jordan" Thompson in the finals.


Let me guess: "but... but this one metric I cling to says..."


And, for anyone else being stupid, you need to shut you whore mouths when talking ill about Timothy Theodore Duncan. This man is a saint. He only retired because the Spurs couldn't rely on him to force them to victory anymore. He could have left the Spurs during their rebuilding years. He could have left during his passing of the torch years. He didn't. He stayed and accepted his diminished role on a 68 win team and, as a 40 year old, couldn't do the impossible and take the team on his back anymore.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Yeah, no Hall of Famers have said it this year. Time to move the goalposts or try to bash the sources.:biggrin: Good luck.
Patrick Ewing, 3/6/2016:
Q. If you were a head coach with your own franchise and you somehow could choose between LeBron James or Steph Curry to start a new team, who would you pick?
The way the game is played now, I’d take Steph.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-says-blog/article64046382.html

Others have picked him over Kobe.
"Robert "Big Shot Rob" Horry:

http://hoopshype.com/2016/02/05/rob...fensive-player-than-kobe-bryant-in-his-prime/

Others have crowned him the new Magic Johnson (who was definitely better than Lebron):
Jerry "The Logo" West:
...calls Steph Curry "the most unique player I've ever seen." Says Curry replaced Magic for him in that regard.
7:11 PM - 7 Jun 2015

Kobe saying Steph is the toughest in the league to guard (even over Lebron):
Who's the toughest NBA player to guard right now? Kobe: "It has to be Steph Curry. Has to be. Moves so well w/o the ball, great in isos."

So your argument gets blown to bits. Lots of HOFers who would take Curry over Lebron.

Regarding Rodman vs Draymond, even coach Kerr said it:
"I think Draymond [Green] has a lot of Dennis Rodman in him.”
Rodman had 4 better seasons than Draymond's 2015 year, but not this year. Draymond posted a 19.3 PER, Rodman's best season (87-88 Pistons) was 17.4. Try harder though. Draymond is now more valuable than Rodman ever was in his prime.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html

Hahaha!!! After Curry's stinker of a Finals, ask them that question now. They would say LeBron and Kobe. And Green having one year better than Rodman and Green is more valuable? Hahaha!!!!

Oh, Curry and Green being on the biggest choke team in NBA History!!!

 

[SP33Demon]

For starters, nobody is going to talk shit about the hot player in the NBA at the moment. Nobody that wants to keep their job. No one is building a team around Curry, except by getting players who won't crumble in the finals to help them win.

And, I love it. "Jerry West said..." Jerry West works and has an ownership stake the, none other, than the Golden State Warriors.

And your quotes are stupid. Asking someone "who is the best offensive player between Curry and Kobe" isn't "who would you build a team around Curry or Lebron".

"Coach Kerr said..." Yeah, the coach of the player he is talking about isn't going to be like "You know, Draymond, he's okay, but he ain't nothing on Rodman or Duncan or any other big man."

And, say whatever you want, Rodman isn't getting destroyed on the boards and on defense by Tristian "I look like Michael B. Jordan" Thompson in the finals.


Let me guess: "but... but this one metric I cling to says..."


And, for anyone else being stupid, you need to shut you whore mouths when talking ill about Timothy Theodore Duncan. This man is a saint. He only retired because the Spurs couldn't rely on him to force them to victory anymore. He could have left the Spurs during their rebuilding years. He could have left during his passing of the torch years. He didn't. He stayed and accepted his diminished role on a 68 win team and, as a 40 year old, couldn't do the impossible and take the team on his back anymore.

So you claim Jerry West is biased by calling Steph the new Magic, what about Ewing and Horry? You explain that away by saying they were bandwagoning the player with the hot hand by saying he's better than Lebron? LMAO. Maybe.because.it's.true.and.they.believed.it. And Kobe was asked who is the toughest player to guard in the NBA right now. And he picked Steph, not Lebron. Lebron (and everyone else) was a joke during the regular season compared to Steph's PER which was the best for guards since MJ. This is a fact that was obvious to everyone in the NBA including legends Kareem, Bird, MJ, Dr. J, etc who sang his praises. It wasn't NBA sycophant analysts worried about their jobs, it was the opinion of legends who couldn't care less about money and job security. Think about that for a second.

Rodman never compared to Draymond's production from last year, that is a fact. PER is a widely accepted stat just like WAR in baseball. To question it shows that you are either a fanboy and/or don't know how the math is calculated. 19.3 > 17.0. Rodman was like the Ichiro of baseball, very very good at a few things (rebounds, defense like hits, defense) but neither were impacting the game like better all around players like Draymond Green or Mike Trout in baseball. The PER and WAR accurately reflect that. Draymond is a bonified scorer, Rodman wasn't even a threat in the paint (or FT line lol) just as Trout is slugging HRs at rate that Ichiro can only dream of.

Now I agree with you about Tim Duncan. To put things into perspective by how good TD was, we just gave you Draymond's best year PER of 19.3. TD's worst year (not including this one)? 21.3 (and he hit 27.0 twice in his prime)! You want to talk about efficiency and impact, TD was amazing and a model of domination. Gonna miss watching The Big Fundamental play.

 

[Miramonti]

Rodman never compared to Draymond's production from last year, that is a fact...

Rodman was like the Ichiro of baseball, very very good at a few things (rebounds, defense like hits, defense) but neither were impacting the game like better all around players like Draymond Green...

First, Ichiro was GREAT at a few things like getting hits and defense (not 'very very good.')

Second, Rodman was GREAT at a few things, like rebounds, defense, and general impact on the game, especially in the playoffs and against some of the games greatest players (Alonzo, Kemp, Shaq, and Mailman...which is not to say he never got his butt kicked by these guys.) Admittedly, without looking it up, I don't remember who/how he matched up against in his piston days.

Green should appeal to stat-fappers like yourself because of his all around game, which is outstanding, but Rodman is more comparable to the impact Tristan Thompson has, who often kicked Green's ass and was ultimately more valuable in the finals imo, even if he didn't have the same overall rounded numbers as Green. And Rodman was generally a 'greater' version of Thompson.

Lastly, I don't think Green will ever be rightfully considered for the HOF. It says a lot for Rodman's game, with as much personal baggage as he had, to have been elected, as it clearly wasn't based on popularity or the 'pc thing to do.'

 

[smackababy]

First, Ichiro was GREAT at a few things like getting hits and defense (not 'very very good.')

Second, Rodman was GREAT at a few things, like rebounds, defense, and general impact on the game, especially in the playoffs and against some of the games greatest players (Alonzo, Kemp, Shaq, and Mailman...which is not to say he never got his butt kicked by these guys.) Admittedly, without looking it up, I don't remember who/how he matched up against in his piston days.

Green should appeal to stat-fappers like yourself because of his all around game, which is outstanding, but Rodman is more comparable to the impact Tristan Thompson has, who often kicked Green's ass and was ultimately more valuable in the finals imo, even if he didn't have the same overall rounded numbers as Green. And Rodman was generally a 'greater' version of Thompson.

Lastly, I don't think Green will ever be rightfully considered for the HOF. It says a lot for Rodman's game, with as much personal baggage as he had, to have been elected, as it clearly wasn't based on popularity or the 'pc thing to do.'

The Pistons played against Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers. Rodman would have likely been up against Worthy on the Lakers. Possibly, Bird on the Celtics. Possibly McHale.