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Official 2013-2014 NBA Playoffs Thread

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DesiPower said:
1. Heats sucks
2. Lebron failed as a leader, could not motivate his team to "Follow his lead" = LeFraud sucks
3. There is no comparison of LeFraud Freak to real hall of famers like Magic, Michael, Tim... LeFraud is mediocre player how will soon disappear into oblivion. True, Heat can buy more player and try to get him some more rings but its a lost cause.
4. Sprus ruined Heats for ever they are never coming back. They showed the world who basketball is played. Heat had a bunch of ring whores who didn't know what they were doing

end/lock thread
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Jordan left the Bulls and they still made the playoffs, Lebron left the Cavs and they finished next to dead last. He carried a POS team to the finals, Jordan played with some top level dudes. Ask yourself this, could Jordan have carried the 95 Nets to the finals? The Heat will be back next season. They made the Finals 4 years in a row. And they're 1-1 against the Spurs in the finals, which seems like I dunno, a tie to me? Of course you'll say the Spurs are clearly better because of Lefraud blah blah blah. Did the Heat show the world who's better last year? Oh yeah, I'm sure you'll chalk up them winning 4 games + the title in 2013 to dumb luck right?
 
QueBert said:
Jordan left the Bulls and they still made the playoffs, Lebron left the Cavs and they finished next to dead last. He carried a POS team to the finals, Jordan played with some top level dudes. Ask yourself this, could Jordan have carried the 95 Nets to the finals? The Heat will be back next season. They made the Finals 4 years in a row. And they're 1-1 against the Spurs in the finals, which seems like I dunno, a tie to me? Of course you'll say the Spurs are clearly better because of Lefraud blah blah blah. Did the Heat show the world who's better last year? Oh yeah, I'm sure you'll chalk up them winning 4 games + the title in 2013 to dumb luck right?
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Not an accurate comparison as the Cavs lost a lot more that year than LB. They lost all three of their centers. ONeal and Varejao only played in 31 games. They lost their point guard Mo as the team went straight to rebuilding mode as they gutted their team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Cleveland_Cavaliers_season

C Anderson Varejão Ryan Hollins Semih Erden
PF Antawn Jamison J. J. Hickson Samardo Samuels
SF Alonzo Gee Joey Graham Luke Harangody
SG Anthony Parker Christian Eyenga Manny Harris
PG Baron Davis Ramon Sessions Daniel Gibson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Cleveland_Cavaliers_season
C Shaquille O'Neal Anderson Varejão Žydrūnas Ilgauskas
PF Antawn Jamison J.J. Hickson Leon Powe
SF LeBron James Jamario Moon Jawad Williams
SG Anthony Parker Delonte West Danny Green
PG Mo Williams Daniel Gibson Sebastian Telfair
 
slayer202 said:
^ heat fanboy
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Nope, not at all I'm a Celtics fan boy. But I'm also not a hater, so I can be honest and say they're a great team. What they've done the last 4 seasons is remarkable.

The spurs lose in the finals last season? Heat got lucky, spurs are still the better team, even though they lost...

Heat make it to the finals 4 seasons in a row winning 2 but lose this year? They suck balls
 
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At the end of the day, the spurs are clearly the better team. I'm not sure I'd call last year's Heat win "luck," but there's a big difference between these two years and the Spurs blew two big opportunities to win last year.
 
QueBert said:
Nope, not at all I'm a Celtics fan boy. But I'm also not a hater, so I can be honest and say they're a great team. What they've done the last 4 seasons is remarkable.

The spurs lose in the finals last season? Heat got lucky, spurs are still the better team, even though they lost...

Heat make it to the finals 4 seasons in a row winning 2 but lose this year? They suck balls
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The heat were great 2 years ago. You cannot deny that. Last year they were seconds away from losing in game 6. They looked great this year up until the finals. Then they got demolished. There is no way around it. It was not just a couple plays. It was a clear shellacking. They sat D Wade for a lot of games during the regular season so he would be ready for the finals. He wasn't. It's clear he is on a sharp decline.

I think the big 3 still have a couple good years left as a team but they have to get a good core of role players. Not just old washed up role players. They need up and coming stars like Kahwi Leonard. They need a PG (BADLY). When Wade and Bosh flame out, who steps up besides Lebron? Last year we saw Ray Allen do so, but it looks like he might retire. So, who is left after that? Rashard Lewis? Beasley? Greg Oden? Lebron cannot do it on his own and that is why he came to Miami.

The Heat have some legitimate concerns and they have been completely exposed in the finals this year. They can be fixed, but it wont be easy especially if Wade, Bosh and Lebron all opt in to the final years of their contract. If they we-work their contracts to lower levels (a la Spurs big 3) then I can definitely see them being the clear cut best team in the NBA.

This offseason is going to be exciting.
 
slayer202 said:
At the end of the day, the spurs are clearly the better team. I'm not sure I'd call last year's Heat win "luck," but there's a big difference between these two years and the Spurs blew two big opportunities to win last year.
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They're clearly better this year, if they were clearly better why didn't they make the finals 4 times in a row?
 
jjsole said:
Teams with talent and ball movement have always had more success. This wasn't invented with zone and hand checking rules. There was always the strong side trap and weak side zone, know as hedging.
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Hedging is a defensive attack against the PNR. You couldn't play a weakside zone before 2004 without getting an illegal defense call. That meant when you doubled the ball you HAD to leave a guy open, hence much fewer double teams. Even then the double had to come after the ball's arrival.

This is no small point. It completely changes the game and the way it is played. I watch so many games during the offseason, though not quite as many as during the season. Watching the games from the 90s is only marginally better than watching college hoops. It is just so vanilla that it hurts.

I'm not sure what motivates your marginalization of Jordan and his years vs. current years/rules/players, other than apparent ignorance of his years. He also used to take much more of an @ss-kicking physically, while today it's a flagrant 2 on lebron if you make him pay for a layup, as he wipes the tears, of course.
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Watch some of the old Bulls games. I do. I ADORE Dennis Rodman. He is one of my all time favorites and a man with no peers when it comes to the things he did well. During those games, and I noticed this being an NBA junkie back then, Jordan gets more preferential treatment from the refs than anybody. They won't dare T him up when he gets in their face over a call, but have no problem T'ing up other guys.

The Jordan Rules were used to successfully corral him as the Pistons won a couple titles. That is the closest thing you will see to a modern defense, but the help is always waaaaaaaaaay late compared to today's game. Because the help comes so late there are Bulls players wide open all the time, but Jordan being Jordan wasn't really going to pass.


Lebron is a great player, and perhaps 'the greatest' in bringing a package that he brings, but no where should that suggest he's automatically on par with Jordan on offense, which is beyond laughable.
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If you mean scoring to be offense, then you are probably right. Jordan was one of the best scorers the game has seen. There is more to being an offensive player than scoring points, ask Steve Nash. Jordan was an elite defender too, though more often than not Pippen was guarding the best wing opponent. From an efficiency standpoint Jordan isn't even in the same room. Scoring two more points a game on 5 to 6 more shots doesn't impress me. Shooting below 30% on threes doesn't impress me.

Again, maybe in this era he would have adapted his game, but given Jordan's stubborness I would find it just as likely that he wouldn't and that his game was just perfectly suited for his era. No different than Lebron's game being perfectly suited for this era.
 
Lebron isn't in the conversation with the greats at this point IMO. All joking aside. He really hasn't shown much except the fact he can pick teammates and situations well enough so he can win. He hasn't shown the killer instinct needed to carry a franchise all the way to a title. He fades in the big moments or he tires out in the fourth. He isn't anywhere near clutch and will defer to lesser players when he's clearly the best player on the team.
 
If the defense in Jordan's era was weak, why are the leaders of defensive stats all from that era? Career steals? Almost all of the top 20 is from the Jordan era. Blocks? Quite a few as well.

I will agree Rodman was a severely underrated player. When it came to crashing boards, there was no better. He lead the league in RBP 7 years in a row...
 
HendrixFan said:
Hedging is a defensive attack against the PNR. You couldn't play a weakside zone before 2004 without getting an illegal defense call. That meant when you doubled the ball you HAD to leave a guy open, hence much fewer double teams. Even then the double had to come after the ball's arrival.

This is no small point. It completely changes the game and the way it is played. I watch so many games during the offseason, though not quite as many as during the season. Watching the games from the 90s is only marginally better than watching college hoops. It is just so vanilla that it hurts.



Watch some of the old Bulls games. I do. I ADORE Dennis Rodman. He is one of my all time favorites and a man with no peers when it comes to the things he did well. During those games, and I noticed this being an NBA junkie back then, Jordan gets more preferential treatment from the refs than anybody. They won't dare T him up when he gets in their face over a call, but have no problem T'ing up other guys.

The Jordan Rules were used to successfully corral him as the Pistons won a couple titles. That is the closest thing you will see to a modern defense, but the help is always waaaaaaaaaay late compared to today's game. Because the help comes so late there are Bulls players wide open all the time, but Jordan being Jordan wasn't really going to pass.




If you mean scoring to be offense, then you are probably right. Jordan was one of the best scorers the game has seen. There is more to being an offensive player than scoring points, ask Steve Nash. Jordan was an elite defender too, though more often than not Pippen was guarding the best wing opponent. From an efficiency standpoint Jordan isn't even in the same room. Scoring two more points a game on 5 to 6 more shots doesn't impress me. Shooting below 30% on threes doesn't impress me.

Again, maybe in this era he would have adapted his game, but given Jordan's stubborness I would find it just as likely that he wouldn't and that his game was just perfectly suited for his era. No different than Lebron's game being perfectly suited for this era.
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I'm pretty sure it's an accepted fact among almost all nba fans, players, etc.. that Jordan was and always be a better basketball player than Lebron. Your Lebron cheerleading is a little over the top at this point. He is the best individual player in the nba right now. I'd argue though that doesn't necessarily translate into him being the best team player in the nba. Examples include Cleveland and the fact he needed two all star teammates and a cast of former all stars nearing retirement age and playing for minimum salaries just two squeak out two titles.
Also see the tap out during finals game 1 or the Boston series tap out for further proof.
 
smackababy said:
If the defense in Jordan's era was weak, why are the leaders of defensive stats all from that era? Career steals? Almost all of the top 20 is from the Jordan era. Blocks? Quite a few as well.

I will agree Rodman was a severely underrated player. When it came to crashing boards, there was no better. He lead the league in RBP 7 years in a row...
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It's because downplaying defenses from then helps his argument.
Also we all know center play in today's game is well below what it was then too although he conveniently leaves out that fact. It was a little tougher going to the rim back then with the quantity of legitimate 7 ft centers standing near the rim.
 
OILFIELDTRASH said:
It's because downplaying defenses from then helps his argument.
Also we all know center play in today's game is well below what it was then too although he conveniently leaves out that fact. It was a little tougher going to the rim back then with the quantity of legitimate 7 ft centers standing near the rim.
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I wasn't old enough to watch back then but the 30 for 30 Bad Boy Pistons looks much rougher on D than today.
 
smackababy said:
If the defense in Jordan's era was weak, why are the leaders of defensive stats all from that era? Career steals? Almost all of the top 20 is from the Jordan era. Blocks? Quite a few as well.
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Most of the players playing in the "post-Jordan era" are still... playing. Chris Paul, John Wall, Paul George, hell even MCW could all be on the steals list eventually. Davis, Ibaka, Howard, Drummond could all do the same for blocks. The major changes to the defensive rule-set only just went in from 01-02 to 04-05. A player of the caliber that makes some 'all-time' numbers that joined the league in 05-06 would probably only be around the halfway point of his career. There's a lot of games for them to play still.

But beyond that raw numbers can be very misleading, which is one of the reasons advanced stats (and more than that, 'advanced thinking') has caught on in the league so much. For one, players are taught more now to take steals and blocks when the opportunity arises but to be wary of gambling for them - Westbrook gets a lot of steals, but one of the most common criticisms of him is that he gambles and overplays for a lot of them. When it works - great, when it doesn't - you're liable to get beaten.

Plus, for blocks in particular, defense has evolved. Most blocks occur on shots that are taken very close to the rim (the only stats I found were from 03-04 but showed about 3-4x more blocks occurred "close to" the rim vs anywhere else) but think about how defenses protect the rim in today's NBA. They try to deny the action there entirely - so you're going to get fewer blocks with fewer shots taken there. Which doesn't mean the defense isn't as good, it's just prioritizing differently - and probably more intelligently.
 
darkewaffle said:
Lebron has reportedly opted out of his contract.
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Doesn't mean anything at this point. He could be renegotiating a smaller contract to stay with the Heat and allow them to pursue another big contract guy (ie Carmelo) or shore up their bench. He could be moving to a new team. At this point, it's a crap shoot. Hopefully we don't get 6 solid weeks of "WHERE IS LEBRON GOING?" this time around.
 
Atomic Playboy said:
Hopefully we don't get 6 solid weeks of "WHERE IS LEBRON GOING?" this time around.
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Hah! You wish!

I agree that it's not a surprise - Lebron isn't stupid, he knows the Heat need some tuning up to remain legitimate contenders and he can help facilitate that. I don't think him going somewhere else is completely out of the question, but not very likely.
 
For Lebron to stay, Bosh and Wade need to step up to the table, admit they are blantently overpaid for their efforts, and take a 10+ million cut each. Take 5 of that 20 million, give it to Lebron and use the remaining 15 million to beef up the bench. That team is going nowhere if they don't.
 
Anyone who thinks that the old defenses that weren't allowed to play zone were tougher than today's defenses is a fucking idiot who knows absolutely nothing about basketball.
 
preslove said:
Anyone who thinks that the old defenses that weren't allowed to play zone were tougher than today's defenses is a fucking idiot who knows absolutely nothing about basketball.
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Incorrect.

In 1980s and early 1990s many teams used to have a big bench player who they used just to go into the game and commit hard fouls on the other team's star. "Put him on his ass" was the instruction they'd receive when the coach called their name so the other team would think twice about going to the basket. They'd commit personal fouls then that would be called flagrant 2's and earn them a 10 game suspension today. A clothesline in the 1980's was just a normal personal foul!

I'd definitely say the average NBA defense today is more advanced in that allowing zone defenses gives them more tools and leeway, but the defense of decades past was far, far more physical and, under the guidance of the right coach like a Chuck Daly or Pat Riley, could easily rival or exceed today's best defenses in terms of effectiveness against the best offensive teams of their time.
 
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