***Official*** 2012 Stock Market Thread

Page 108 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,835
2,628
126
Probably, but how will markets react?

Freaking debt ceiling last time was taken care of at the last minute. We all remember how much the markets liked that one...

It depends. I just know a deal will be reached that will have spending cuts, tax increases and a raise in the debt ceiling (which I hate the most).

I still think we are going to default one day causing a drop of 50% or more in the face value of the dollar. It happened in Mexico, Russia and Argentina. It can happen here too if we carelessly go past $20,000,000,000,000 without trying to reign in spending. Not caring wont make it go away. Kicking the can wont make it go away. Cutting spending is the ONLY solution.

In the meantime it will be business as usual on Wall Street. Lots of volatility, etc.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
"Probably, but how will markets react?"
$4 trillion Grand Bargain (give or take 10% seems to be wiggle room discussed on tv) -> S & P 500 to 1600 or higher this year or next? e. g. http://finance.yahoo.com/video/goldman-sees-p-2013-target-171500665.html & http://www.cnbc.com/id/49208910/S_P_500_to_Hit_Record_High_in_2013_Strategist (Please note that both of these video clips are over 1 month old).


Kick the can down the road (http://www.economonitor.com/dolanec...ns-underline-need-for-goldilocks-budget-deal/) not sure (continued slow muddle up / muddle around what Leon Cooperman a month ago said was fair value with Obama victory (1415) with limited bouts of dampened volatility?, because unlike 2008, there is adult supervision of markets in place both here and in Europe (last fall, initial impression was that European leaders were keystone cops hopelessly behind where markets wanted them to be, but now I think sentiment is that they will hold things together while they let some turmoil occur in markets to scare populaces into agreeing to more austerity, and also don't forget that QE Infinity might be a howitzer behind barn door Ben Bernanke has when market only wanted a bazooka). Maybe they let markets fall a bit to prod politicians into action, but the howitzer is there if need be.

Seems to me main question / uncertainty to be removed in the short term is hopefully Lame Duck Congress not throwing economy into temporary recession early next year because of idealogy. Something like comprehensive corporate tax reform, including repatriation of foreign profits as bargaining chip, 1 year extension of Bush tax cuts for everyone, and say real infrastructure stimulus spending once believable to markets locked in plan for $4 trillion of judiciously spread out over 10 years debt reduction, all could be nice boosts to upside, if they could actually occur.


China 10 year change of power starts in a few days (November 8?), and there is another round of Greek austerity measures that have to be approved in next few days or week or so? Lost the link (edit: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/reform-votes-end-talk-greek-103644471.html), but article I glanced at a few days ago said if Greeks agree, it reasonably takes risk of them leaving Euro off the table, for good (?) I think Merkel also said it European sovereign debt crisis would take another 5 years to resolve, which might mean their original plan for getting debt to manageable levels with harsh austerity, but enough government intervention to keep interest rates from soaring in mean time. Seems like might deal with debt, but really no plans for competitive reforms or growth.

Last summer I think, underneath the debt ceiling theatrics, was whether economy was going to be pushed back into recession (e. g. inflation was approaching 4% IIRC, and Morningstar analyst Bob Johnson said that is what typically kills off recoveries). Plus everything about Greece was starting to show up on out tv sets all the time.

China sounds like it is coming in somewhere between soft landing (8%+ nominal GDP growth) and hard landing (5%), and not the worst case scenarios of actually crash landing into negative growth.

Uncertainties (read tail risks?) slowly being removed from market (e. g. http://humblestudentofthemarkets.blogspot.com/2012/01/global-healing-2012-vs-2009.html) again please note that both articles are from a much gloomier time, specifically very early this year) hopefully Europe is Japanifying itself and will just fester away while it inflates and devalues it's way out of debt, and a true Grand Bargain, I think, could make market soar, to all time highs, and probably much higher than that.

War with Iran or Syria with huge spike in oil prices is of course wild card always out there.



Vadim Zlotnikov this morning (temporary risk off?: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000127793&play=1 ) vs. a few weeks ago (de-risking rally: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000124560&play=1)

Cam Hui's take today:
saupload_SPY_vs_TLT.jpg

"Technicians often describe this pattern as a coiled spring. When it breaks out, it will typically break hard in the direction of the break."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/986141-what-now-for-the-markets (inflation vs. deflation; harsh austerity vs. stimulus in U. S. and globally???)



Quote from this article is slightly out of context, but I think it, ultimately, does capture proper sentiment:
"In addition to these three scenarios there are all the “Armageddon” prophecies that include the breakdown of the monetary system, hyperinflation, or a deflationary depression with all of the social unrest that comes with the breakdown of societies. But what does all this mean for us as investors and traders?

The answer is simpler than you might think: follow the money. The great classical economist Ludwig von Misses taught that it is human action which determines the value of things and the direction of markets. If people panic and sell things we will enter a deflation as cash becomes king just as it was in the Great Depression. Whatever cash you hold could be worth ten times as much in purchasing power at the end of a great deflation. If on the other hand people run from cash and trade it for stocks, or homes, or commodities like gold and silver; we will be in an inflationary world where cash is trash."

...

The coordinated move by governments to lower interest and supply liquidity to banks and governments, has tipped the hand of world leaders. It will be seen as inflationary, but it is actually an anti-deflationary move. It is a concerted action to off-set deleveraging. In my opinion it is a test run leading to further action as necessary, and it will involve almost every major nation in the world. The immediate reaction this time was money flying into equity markets around the world."


http://www.paulnathan.biz/commentaries/111-at-the-point-of-panic.html


(having howitzer, but not actually having to use it if U. S. economy can continue to slowly gain steam, might argue against gold soaring (?))
 
Last edited:
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
I just bought more SD yesterday at $6.11. It close between 6 and my entry. Damn cheap. I figure it is an $10+ stock. Don't ask why. It uses conservative fuzzy math but such that i am confident that buying here is cheap.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,406
389
126
LEG is accelerating its Dividend payment, expecting the Fiscal Cliff to occur.

I am hoping a lot of companies, particularly those that give out special dividends, will do this. I have heard some analysts say that companies will if able.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
146
106
www.neftastic.com
I am hoping a lot of companies, particularly those that give out special dividends, will do this. I have heard some analysts say that companies will if able.

Isn't this in the face of the impending tax hike restructuring? Particularly the dividend taxes?
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
I know I said "before the election" but I also said 10 days. Tomorrow is the 10th day. I think Sandy may have mucked up the timing. It was a bit arrogant for me to be so tight on my window, really I had no reason to be. My puts dont expire until next friday. But it is clear that if there's going to be a crash, it is surely coming in a wave over the next few days. As soon as the crash wave stops I will be able to determine the bottom, according to my very useful Waterfall Theory™. That is where the 2nd chance to make big money comes.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,406
389
126
Isn't this in the face of the impending tax hike restructuring? Particularly the dividend taxes?

Companies want to pay out dividends before the tax rate on dividends goes up. Often times an executive officer is a large holder of company stock so he wants to be paid at a lower tax rate too.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Companies want to pay out dividends before the tax rate on dividends goes up. Often times an executive officer is a large holder of company stock so he wants to be paid at a lower tax rate too.

Thanks. That's what I thought based on what I had previously read about the tax rate issues.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Thats about where I got in at, I actually had it set to buy back in at 6.20 but I jumped the gun.

My buy at $6.11 was dollar cost averaging. My other lot was at $6.70 or so (I think). I normally would not bother dollar cost averaging on a 10% dip but SD rarely gets this low.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,835
2,628
126
Who would buy a sleepy backwater stock like SD? It goes nowhere capital gain wise. You dont even get a dividend. Might as well buy CSCO, IBM or even XON. They are virtually identical as far as going nowhere - fast - and they even pay a tiny div.

The 1 year chart confirms this:

z


To make matters worse, demand for oil is falling near term. No wonder its cheap! ;)

(dont take this personally, its just not my cup of tea)
 
Last edited:
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Meow,

If all you look at is 6 month charts, I don't know what to tell you. Natural gas is hte future of this country. Long haul trucking will move to it first. To my knowledge locomotives have done a proof of concept once but they are sticking to diesel.

Anyway. Looks like I DCAed to early. SD down 15% to the low $5s.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,024
1,131
126
What's hold nVidia down? The overall decline of PC industry? It seems they have good earnings but the stock doesn't go anywhere. Now with dividends at least there's some returns.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Me sucky sucky for two-dolla-eighty: GRPN= 28% drop, down to $2.80-ish now.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
HAHAHAH,

Just got an e-mail. When I filled my SD order yesterday at $6.11, I forgot to cancel my oder to buy more at $5. I bought more during the dip to $4.80 after the open. SD is almost back to $6/share. Up almost 20% on the same day on those shares. Anything over $6, and I'm in the green w/ DCAing.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,835
2,628
126
HAHAHAH,

Just got an e-mail. When I filled my SD order yesterday at $6.11, I forgot to cancel my oder to buy more at $5. I bought more during the dip to $4.80 after the open. SD is almost back to $6/share. Up almost 20% on the same day on those shares. Anything over $6, and I'm in the green w/ DCAing.

:eek:

Heres to $7 :thumbsup:
 
Apr 17, 2003
37,622
0
76
Meow,

If all you look at is 6 month charts, I don't know what to tell you. Natural gas is hte future of this country. Long haul trucking will move to it first. To my knowledge locomotives have done a proof of concept once but they are sticking to diesel.

Anyway. Looks like I DCAed to early. SD down 15% to the low $5s.

I eyed this one for a while but passed due to the insider sell + through the roof debt.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
Risk on. http://rsitraders.com/

SPY 140 calls at 18 cents, expiring this week. This is one of those 3 or 4 times a year where I have a really good chance at hitting a ten-bagger. Also going for some Dec 141 calls @ $1.30 just incase we dont launch quite as fast as I hope.