***Official*** 2011 Stock Market Thread

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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,196
4,869
126
If they are going to pay $40 per share and MMI currently trades at $38.12.....can't I just buy $50k worth of MMI and expect to make like $2500?
What if either company gets cold feet? What if regulators won't let the deal go through? What if future information comes to light (such as misrepresentation from MMI) which lowers the final price? If any of these things happen, MMI could drop right back down to the $20-$25 range it was at yestderday.

Most likely you could get a $1.88/share profit. But there is a chance that you might lose $13/share. That possible loss is why the price didn't go all the way up to $40/share. There is still risk in the transaction you propose. The market is pricing that risk at $1.88/share at the moment.
 

manlymatt83

Lifer
Oct 14, 2005
10,051
44
91
What if either company gets cold feet? What if regulators won't let the deal go through? What if future information comes to light (such as misrepresentation from MMI) which lowers the final price? If any of these things happen, MMI could drop right back down to the $20-$25 range it was at yestderday.

Most likely you could get a $1.88/share profit. But there is a chance that you might lose $13/share. That possible loss is why the price didn't go all the way up to $40/share. There is still risk in the transaction you propose. The market is pricing that risk at $1.88/share at the moment.

How long will the deal take to close? Possibly good options play?
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
I made some nice money the last few days, if it's up another percent tomorrow, going to take some money off the table.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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Again, I'll bring this up again, you claim to be looking at raw data, okay sure fine. But history would lead me to believe that the information being leaked is being cooked, because it's being provided by people that stand to benefit from overtly positive data.
Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

You're right, it is a conspiracy.

Nope, data is raw data. I found it by reading the USG annual report which pointed to an organization that has been collecting this data since 1959. Relax, USG did not provide a single number. They said they have near term expectations because of the data though. Ironically some other famous investor *cough* BUFFETT *cough* have a similar sentiment.

But me. I'm a thinker. I actually think. Wow. Should I trust them or actually go research the matter on my own. Well, the value investing way is to discover for oneself.

I read about the place in USGs annual report ( I read things like annual reports for fun instead of watching Jim Cramer) and then remembered to go look at the place to see what data is available. Doing one's own research provides a competitive advantage against other investors who all rely on what they are spoon fed. That's another lesson though. Anyways, it's not leaked. Really? You are taking facts and saying that ... oh that must be cooked data? Tell you what. If my numbers are off:
1) Do some independant research
2) Collect the data
3) Draw a conclusion

Don't react to things that contradict your preconceived notions with conspiracy's or random facts that do not address the issue at hand.
All it takes is some basic brain skills, have you not noticed how many of those 'rosy' pieces of data provided over the last 6 months have been revised downwards?
Brain skills? can you provide a single independent thought? You and pliable moose both have not. Reiterating media talking points in a disconnected manner does not result in a conclusion. Take the talking points. Some numbers that your have found and draw a rational conclusion. That is brain skillz. ('z' intentional to make me look cool)

Well, the past is definitely an indicator of the future I guess. So it must continue to get worse then.

What about the fact that something like 45% of the USA is underwater on their mortgages, yet you claim there isn't enough property? Who's going to be buying all this property, especially with a stagflation going on.

What is worse than relying on information on TV is not even remembering the things the media tells you. You can look up the actual percent if you want. HINT: You are off just a bit.

Now, you have gone beyond the step of hearing something on TV and said, how far under water? If housing prices remain flat for a year, what percentage of those home owners will still be underwater? I am referring to the effects of paying down principle and interest of course.

And if inflation is 3% and wages follow that 3% what happens to housing prices in 3 years? Prices should be up about 10%. This is ideal of course. Well, in 10 years prices should be up.

Not interested in addressing the premise of where people are going to sleep at night in 5 years time? Still convinced that tents are the answer?

Listen. I am simply making a case that more homes will be needed. They don't appear out of thin air. It requires the 22% or so unemployment level in the construction industry to get back to work and use products from the sector with the second worst unemployment level (manufacturing) to build those homes.

PS: Manufacturing is at 15% unemployment.

I still do not know why I go through these exercises in futility. People either get it or they don't. Most people enjoy being a Lemming. Even when people are told information, they refuse to even ask what the sources of information is from. Most people are to concerned with proving their point instead of trying to learn. Perhaps it is being human. Often why I say that most investors would benefit from a basic understanding of cognitive biases and behavioral finance. You still have yet to ask for a single one of my sources. For all you know, I'm jsut pulling data out of my backside. I'll ask you. Where did you get your 45% underwater number from? I'd love to see that data.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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So you work for WFC as an executive and can confidently tell us they aren't cooking their books? You say 0% chance of that? Naivete.

Also, your outlook that the economy will recover soon is not logical. Stating that unemployment is only in the housing sector and at historical norms in "every other industry" shows that you're not following the situation logically.


http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/07/americas-economy

Basically if unemployment was simplified into one sector like you claim, then we could easily resolve this recession. The housing sector is one indicator of growth, but not the surefire solution out of this downward spiral.

Also, comparing this recession to historical "norms" is not logical either. Historical recessions were never as bad as what we're seeing now, as explained in another article I read recently:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/07/labour-markets

WFC. OK, I'll drop it. Naive? Good insult. Ignorantly rooted but good. I can't express year of knowledge in one post or 100. So I'll move on. Stay on topic here. USG. Do me a favor though. For the rest of your life, never, ever invest in WFC. We do not want you as a co-owner. More on new home construction ....

I am not comparing the recession to historical norms. You are. I am comparing new housing construction to historical norms.

OK, your argument that unemployment problems are not tied to one or two sectors is based on two articles that have nothing to do with per sector unemployment? The first is a GDP article. Don't here about that once a month. Actually the second one points at the IT field directly. I really don't see how an article on IT unemployment relates to construction and manufacturing unemployment. You could not have picked a worse article (2nd one). I really don't know what your point is. Are you just hoping people won't look at them? Did you just pick the first result from a search of Google news?

This is getting pointless.

Have you ever gone here:
http://www.bls.gov/
They have things like salaries and unemployment levels and stuff by sector.

If you find my other secret data source, you could even find out about housing "data".

data - Things known or assumed as facts, making the basis of reasoning or calculation.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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nevermind.

Regarding new home construction, I did ignore one source from whitehouse.gov. I don't think we will see the numbers they see in 5 years time. There shorter term projections do make some sense though.
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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Watching the Buffett interview on Charlie Rose.

I love how one sentence he can make in a 50 minute interview simply reinforces what I have been saying here about housing
 
Sep 29, 2004
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.... somebody's really trying to prove themselves.

Assuming you are referring to me, "prove themselves" and educate others are two different concepts. Too many Lemmings in this world relying on the thoughts of others instead of thinking for themselves. If an investors knowledge is based on the same thoughts as 99% of the other investors out there, what competitive advantage does that investor have over the other 99%? Think about it. It''s not a complex thought process. I represent that other 1%.

I'll take my data and independent thoughts with me. Time will tell who is right.

Conclusion (I think I implied thesis and included some macro data):
1) Unemployment below 8% within 1.5 years. (Feb 1, 2013)
2) Unemployment below 7.5% within 2.5 years. (Feb 1, 2013)
3) Revenues of USG to be over $4B in FY 2013. Record Revenues within 7 years.
4) New housing construction up to atleast 800,000 units in 2.5 years (Feb 1, 2013). To be clear, this number is new home sales. Not permits or starts granted those numbers should be greater than new home sales.

I can only show people how to fish so long. If one continues to rely on the catch of the day from various media outlets, so be it.

I've given my reasoning granted the predictions above are from a deeper knowledge base than I have stated. Can't explain 5 years of building a mental lattice work in a single post after all.

But if anyone wants to put up their predictions, I'd love to see them. NOTE: I think I remember someone mentioning us being the next Japan. You might want to look at population "data" of Japan and the USA. Just a minor little detail to think about.

For anyone that wants to make predictions, you don't even need to give rational but do so if you want. Just give mid-term predictions (1-5 years out).

Time will tell if I was right. Awaiting the sound of crickets.

Last post regarding this matter.

LONG TERM LONG SHOT:
5) Warren Buffet through Berkshire Hathaway will buy out USG for atleast $18/share. Could be as high as $40/share though but probably less than $32/share.

SLAM DUNK INVESTMENT:
6) I have January 2013 calls at the $5 strike that I paid about $5 each for. $5.20 each if memory serves. 2014s are around the corner. I hope USG doesn't run up too much before then.
 
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cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
So regarding MMI, i got in when the split happened and I have about 60 shares at cost $20. Should I sell it first thing tomorrow? and get about 38 / share.

Also if I do not sell the shares, what will happen if the buy is approved; will i just get cash or will I get google stocks out of it?
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
Pliable:
question for you

are you invested only in AAPL. I made a fucking mistake and got in at 390 right before the market crash.. :). I am expecting 420-450 by year end, but I like playing the drops and ups. Is that what you have been doing?
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Pliable:
question for you

are you invested only in AAPL. I made a fucking mistake and got in at 390 right before the market crash.. :). I am expecting 420-450 by year end, but I like playing the drops and ups. Is that what you have been doing?

YGPM
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Pliable:
question for you

are you invested only in AAPL. I made a fucking mistake and got in at 390 right before the market crash.. :). I am expecting 420-450 by year end, but I like playing the drops and ups. Is that what you have been doing?

I wish I had been only in apple, it alone is the reason my portfolio is still barely black.

t
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
I wish I had been only in apple, it alone is the reason my portfolio is still barely black.

The next quarterly earnings will be in the middle of Oct or so, we'll have the iPhone 5 release by then, and the figures will show an insane number of MBA's sold, along with MB's and iPad sales just keep going, the other tablets have all been discounted form their original retail prices already, the SS Galaxy Tab 10.1 was on eBay today for ~$70 off, the Android tablets aren't selling for shit. HP can't flipping give away it's tablet, Best Buy ordered 270,000 of them and have only sold 10%, and they've asked HP to take the rest back.

Apple has ramped up production of the iPad this quarter to the tune of a 3 day wait, and many retailers are actually able to keep the iPad in stock this quarter, sales of the iPad should be insane again.

The iPad has become what the iPod is, the only game in town.

I think we'll see $450 after the iPhone 5 release and quarterly results due in October, barring a meltdown in the markets. It won't hold, but it'll pull the stock above $400 to stay.

It's likely we'll see a cheap version of the iP4 for pre paid use around the world, 3G only, and the iP5 looks like it'll have 4G/LTE and a retina display 4" screen. I also think we'll see the iPhone 5 on Sprint on it's release.

People always screw up and forget US sales account for only ~45% of total sales, the MBA has been selling out in some locations, and MBA's and MBP's are selling like crazy in China. The average Chinese person makes very little money, but anyone with any means in China is buying Apple laptops, iPhones and iPads. There were 22 flipping FAKE Apple Stores in China for god's sake... The decontented iP4 for prepaid will show insane sales in BIC (Brazil, India and China-and Europe too)

(please for the love of god, no one argue about that crap in this thread, just send me a PM and tell me I suck a bag of cocks, just don't turn this thread into a fanboi war, I've owned and currently own a handful of Android phones, and have bought 3 Android tablets so far, so grow the fuck up and understand this post is about making money, not about being a a fanboy, and please shut the fuck up)
 
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cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
The average Chinese person makes very little money, but anyone with any means in China is buying Apple laptops, iPhones and iPads. There were 22 flipping FAKE Apple Stores in China for god's sake...

to add to the point above, I read and hear stories from insiders, that they are planning a wave of stores in China in the next 2 years . Right now they have 2 stores , but are expecting 20-50 more stores in the next 2 years.

take it for what it is worth.
I am not a fanboi.. i still use windows 6.5 phone and like it better than the Iphone. but this is what I read on MW, BW and also chatting up with some buddies who work there.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
(please for the love of god, no one argue about that crap in this thread, just send me a PM and tell me I suck a bag of cocks, just don't turn this thread into a fanboi war, I've owned and currently own a handful of Android phones, and have bought 3 Android tablets so far, so grow the fuck up and understand this post is about making money, not about being a a fanboy, and please shut the fuck up)

:D:D:D
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Oh shite, AGAIN! DOW is -450ish last I checked. Was kind of expecting it, just hoping that it wouldn't.

Oh well, waiting for the +300 pop tomorrow, then the inevitable panic sell-off again the day after.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Let's see how Gold/silver do today. I expect more of this bad news for the next 2 years in the least.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Suck a bag of dicks!

apple sucks people love it i dont get it but we makes moneys off it anyway~

lmao. Yep Apple does suck a bag of dicks product wise, I can't believe how badly their marketing has fooled the general populace into paying that much for a product that doesn't have flash. As long as it makes us traders money, I'm not complaining. Wonder how much longer this iFad craze can continue? Long term I'm not touching Apple.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,287
2,790
126
But werent all our troubles behind us already? Our budgets were balanced and we were going back up in the markets? Dow sub 10,000 wasnt possible, right?

:whiste:
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Oh shite, AGAIN! DOW is -450ish last I checked. Was kind of expecting it, just hoping that it wouldn't.

Oh well, waiting for the +300 pop tomorrow, then the inevitable panic sell-off again the day after.

This is the day trader's market. There are going to be a ton of new millionaires riding on the backs of the long term growth losers.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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For value investors:

SD is nearing sub $7 levels. I'm keepign an eye on that one. might make a move if it gets below $6.

USG .... bought more at $7.50. Last time I bought was at about $13 so it was time to dollar cost averge. Love it when nothing fundanetally changes with a companies outlook and the stock price drops in half. People overly worried about hte wrong things. So, big opportunity there.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
This is the day trader's market. There are going to be a ton of new millionaires riding on the backs of the long term growth losers.

Only real risky thing I hold is Citi, and after being raped once, I learned to hold a much smaller position. Should be day trading this sucker with 5-10% swings every other day. Think I'll start once we're back up to yesterday in a few days...