Office needs new workstations

[tricky_p]

Hi all,

I've been tapped to research new workstations for our office! Yay!

Problem is i have no experience with professional level builds...I have built a few PC's and know my way around a build, but i've never built anything beyond a consumer I7 core. I'm hoping some of you egg-heads can help.

It will need to be a Dell Precision workstation, most likely the t5500.

USE: heavy 3D work (rhino, sketch-up, 3D max, revit) including heavy rendering, and parametric modeling; LOTS of AutoCAD; Lots of photoshop, illustrator work

BUDGET:They will need to kick ass for 5 years (broad range i know) and hopefully cost under $3500.00 (but dont let that limit)

I would love to have SSDs (256gb is fine), but if the performance gains aren't worth the $$ i can lose it.

Sorry this isn't a very elegantly composed post - i just found out and am still squeeling with nerdy delight. Thanks!

 

[Ertaz]

Hi all,

I've been tapped to research new workstations for our office! Yay!

Problem is i have no experience with professional level builds...I have built a few PC's and know my way around a build, but i've never built anything beyond a consumer I7 core. I'm hoping some of you egg-heads can help.

It will need to be a Dell Precision workstation, most likely the t5500.

USE: heavy 3D work (rhino, sketch-up, 3D max, revit) including heavy rendering, and parametric modeling; LOTS of AutoCAD; Lots of photoshop, illustrator work

BUDGET:They will need to kick ass for 5 years (broad range i know) and hopefully cost under $3500.00 (but dont let that limit)

I would love to have SSDs (256gb is fine), but if the performance gains aren't worth the $$ i can lose it.

Sorry this isn't a very elegantly composed post - i just found out and am still squeeling with nerdy delight. Thanks!

*Congrats*

I am several years removed from my workstation days. Don't overlook your network transport & storage infrastructure when you do this! Not all Nics/network gear are created equal. If you are going to move these files back and forth you want to optimize them with jumbo frame support. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumbo_frame http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products...s_configuration_example09186a008010edab.shtml

 

[trexpesto]

Nothing will really kick ass for 5 years, may as well tell them.
Rather small size:

Built for environments where space is at a premium, the Dell Precision T5500 delivers dual-socket workstation performance in a compact, quiet package.

 

[BoomerD]

Look into Dell and HP workstations. While most of us would never consider their offerings for our personal use, workstations are different...often higher quality components with FAR BETTER support options.
You can spec what you want...or let them make recommendations based on your needs.

 

[tricky_p]

thanks for the replies,

I am definitely planning on choosing a dell - the problem is they have a lot of options, particularly dealing with processors. I dont know much about the xeon processors and i dont know where the best price point is (dual low end quads, vs hi-end 6-core? etc..)

 

[mnewsham]

First, is this a bulk order? If so call dell directly you can get some damn fine discounts NEVER pay sticker price on a workstation!!!!!

 

[Texashiker]

It will need to be a Dell Precision workstation, most likely the t5500.

The t5500 supports up to 72gb of DDR3? Wow, your talking about some serious stuff there.

We went with the Dell T1500 series in a non-Xeon, I-3 and I-5 system. Overall, the employees that received the workstation have been very happy.

If your processing large amounts of info, then I would go with the Xeon. Most of our stuff is microsoft office and data entry, so we did not need the xeon.

 

[tricky_p]

First, is this a bulk order? If so call dell directly you can get some damn fine discounts NEVER pay sticker price on a workstation!!!!!

unfortunately not, only 3 or 4 - so maybe we can, but i'm not counting on it.

Yes they are serious machines - we do a lot of drafting/modeling/rendering which requires.

 

[mnewsham]

unfortunately not, only 3 or 4 - so maybe we can, but i'm not counting on it.

Yes they are serious machines - we do a lot of drafting/modeling/rendering which requires.

Anything over $10K worth and dell will usually bend over for you.

 

[tynopik]

are you including monitors in that price?

sandy bridge xeons come out middle of April

pro-grade gear (xeons, ecc, quadro, etc) eats money super fast, which is frustrating because you know you could get better performance at a lower price, but sometimes reliability and support and CYA is more important

but sometimes it isn't . . .

 

[tricky_p]

Anything over $10K worth and dell will usually bend over for you.

Lets hope so!

are you including monitors in that price?

sandy bridge xeons come out middle of April

pro-grade gear (xeons, ecc, quadro, etc) eats money super fast, which is frustrating because you know you could get better performance at a lower price, but sometimes reliability and support and CYA is more important

but sometimes it isn't . . .

The price does not need to include monitors, We already have dual 19"ers and i would rather have performance than new monitors.

as for the sandy bridge xeons...I may be able to get the office to hold, but its hard not to strike while the iron's hot.

thanks everyone for your responses!

 

[tynopik]

The price does not need to include monitors, We already have dual 19"ers and i would rather have performance than new monitors.

what res are your monitors?

i know you said you prefer performance, but resolution will probably have the most direct impact on productivity

it's just that you're used to them, you don't realize how cripping it is.

also you need to determine what is holding back your performance the most: cpu? video card? lack of ram? storage speed?

you could easily top 10 grand getting top of the line everywhere, so you'll have to prioritize which components are the most important

 

[tricky_p]

what res are your monitors?

i know you said you prefer performance, but resolution will probably have the most direct impact on productivity

it's just that you're used to them, you don't realize how cripping it is.

also you need to determine what is holding back your performance the most: cpu? video card? lack of ram? storage speed?

you could easily top 10 grand getting top of the line everywhere, so you'll have to prioritize which components are the most important

I will look into the monitors - we are currently using the 1907fp from dell.

As far as what is holding us back - i would say GPU, RAM, and CPU. Currently we are using Dell Precision 380's - when we originally bought them we were doing no 3d work. Now we are working on huge 3d models with complex geometries that really require complete overhauls.

i think what is most important for us are the cpu and gpu. Ram comes next, we will buy more (not from dell), but 6gb min is probably a good starting point. Storage size/speed is not a serious problem. We have a large server and data speeds are not too important.

thanks!

 

[mfenn]

A 5 year lifecycle is out of the question if you expect your needs to grow over time (as you've discovered with your 380s). Sorry, but that's just the way of the PC world. Also, $3500 is rather low for a dual-processor T5500. The Quadro 5000 itself (which you want for heavy 3D) is ~$1500. It makes sense to go with the T3500 if you want to stay anywhere near the $3500 figure (even then, you'll probably go a bit over).

Since you say that storage is not a serious problem, I'm going to skip the SSD for now because that'll eat up a good chunk of your budget.

Here's a build:

This is right at $5000 list. For quantity 3-4, I imaging that you can probably wrangle a 30% discount off of list, so that puts you at about $3500 each. This includes a Quadro 5000 and 12GB of RAM, so it will absolutely fly when doing the modelling itself. The sacrifice that I made for your budget was to keep the CPU at "only" a 3.2Ghz quad-core, which will mean that your final rendering times will take longer. If you're willing to go to about $9000 list ($6000 after discount), then you can get dual
3.06GHz hexa-cores (12 cores total) and thus really cut down on those render times.

 

[tricky_p]

Great! Thanks mfenn. I'll try and explain to the partners that 5years is out of the question - especially given the limited budget.

Do you think the quadro 4000 would suffice or is the 5000 really worth it?

Comparing the processors. Is there a noticeable difference between the W3565 and the E5620? My co-worker is really pushing for the E5620 citing the difference in thread count.

Lastly RAM. I feel like Dell jacks up the price, would we be better off buying it separately and installing it?

Thanks a lot for everyones help/comments!

 

[nsafreak]

Great! Thanks mfenn. I'll try and explain to the partners that 5years is out of the question - especially given the limited budget.

Do you think the quadro 4000 would suffice or is the 5000 really worth it?

Comparing the processors. Is there a noticeable difference between the W3565 and the E5620? My co-worker is really pushing for the E5620 citing the difference in thread count.

Lastly RAM. I feel like Dell jacks up the price, would we be better off buying it separately and installing it?

Thanks a lot for everyones help/comments!

I don't have much to add on the Xeon line of processors or the Quadro lines of GPUs as I don't have experience with either. However I wouldn't recommend installing the graphics card yourself unless you don't mind losing Dell's support on that part of the build. When you're buying these workstations you're also paying for Dell's support on those systems. So if something breaks then Dell will be responsible for replacing that part. I could be incorrect but if you install the video cards then Dell will not do warranty work if it's the video card that breaks. They'll continue to support other parts that were part of the original build but not something that you installed afterwards.

 

[tricky_p]

I don't have much to add on the Xeon line of processors or the Quadro lines of GPUs as I don't have experience with either. However I wouldn't recommend installing the graphics card yourself unless you don't mind losing Dell's support on that part of the build. When you're buying these workstations you're also paying for Dell's support on those systems. So if something breaks then Dell will be responsible for replacing that part. I could be incorrect but if you install the video cards then Dell will not do warranty work if it's the video card that breaks. They'll continue to support other parts that were part of the original build but not something that you installed afterwards.

Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't install the GPU on my own because of the exact reasons you cite. I think I could get away with RAM though - so long as I reinstall the factory RAM if i were to use the warranty/support!

 

[gsaldivar]

Anything you buy will "kick ass" for a year or maybe two (if you're lucky), then be outpaced by newer (more complex and bloated) software rapidly after that. As you approach year #5, your users will be bored with their slow machines, cursing your name, and counting the days left until their next upgrade.

Also, $3500/seat is a ridiculously tiny budget for anything "workstation" class. Over 5 years, that investment breaks down to a only $58.33/month per user, or the rough equivalent of about 2.5 hours salary of an entry-level $50k computer operator, per month. In other words, unless you're getting all your labor for free, hardware is a tiny expense compared to what you are paying your computer operators...

Don't be afraid to spend a little to get top notch performance. In the long run you will maximize your labor dollars - that's where the real money is. Also, look into equipment leasing - write off your hardware costs as business expense and be done with it.

Good luck!

 

[tricky_p]

gsaldivar,
while I completely agree with you - my superiors do not. It's taken me 3 years to get them to recognize that there are some users (drafters/modelers) who require faster machines than others. The 'workflow' our office has been using involves giving newest and greatest to the highers up - then older machines trickle down.

Also, $3500/seat is a ridiculously tiny budget for anything "workstation" class. Over 5 years, that investment breaks down to a only $58.33/month per user, or the rough equivalent of about 2.5 hours salary of an entry-level $50k computer operator, per month. In other words, unless you're getting all your labor for free, hardware is a tiny expense compared to what you are paying your computer operators..

Thanks for this, i'll be sure to bring this up - i would say that we probably lose at least 8 hours a month in waiting for our machines or recovering work after a crash.

 

[imagoon]

Lastly RAM. I feel like Dell jacks up the price, would we be better off buying it separately and installing it?

Who ever supports those machines afterwards will hate use. Mostly because to save $20 now you are going to waste more than $20 in labor if there is an issue. Also RAM is the first part they chop $$ of of if you buy 3-4 of these machines. To give you a rough ball park I paid about $5500ish for T7500 24GB RAM Quad 3.46 Gig Xeon 320GB SAS drive, 2.5gig Quadro... something (cant recall). For CAD / MEP / Revit etc

 

[mnewsham]

Honestly tell them that you can spend $5000/seat NOW and decline slowly in performance level...

Years system used​

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5​

100% 80% 60% 40% 20%
Level of performance*​

Overall performance over 5 years: 60%




OR you can spend 3500/seat now for ~3 years and then upgrade again.

Years system used

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5​

80% 60% 40% 80% 60%
Level of Performance*​

Overall performance over 5 years: 64%



Your cost after 5 years will be about the same. BUT you finish the 5 years with 60% performance level instead of 20% allowing you to keep using the workstations for another year or two before they become too slow! The performance gains in the 5 year period arent significant ~4% but in the long run you get much better performance. As you said the old computers are sent down to lower level users. This way in 5 years you can keep using the workstation for two years OR you can let it "trickle down" and still provide SOMEONE with a relativly speedy experience (after 5 years). Now their are obviously +/- for everything and in this too there are. You must weigh your options and pick the one that most fits your needs.

*Those numbers are just examples and are not reflective of actual performance loss or gain, But it does give you the idea.

Hope that helped


Sorry for the crap formating it just wont agree with me right now

 

[tynopik]

you're going to have to research every software package and find out what video cards are certified/recommended for each.

Have fun!

also I don't know how your workflow is setup, but might it be worthwhile to have a separate 'render farm' server with lots of processors instead of fitting every workstation with dual processors?

 

[Paperlantern]

Anything you buy will "kick ass" for a year or maybe two (if you're lucky), then be outpaced by newer (more complex and bloated) software rapidly after that. As you approach year #5, your users will be bored with their slow machines, cursing your name, and counting the days left until their next upgrade.

Also, $3500/seat is a ridiculously tiny budget for anything "workstation" class. Over 5 years, that investment breaks down to a only $58.33/month per user, or the rough equivalent of about 2.5 hours salary of an entry-level $50k computer operator, per month. In other words, unless you're getting all your labor for free, hardware is a tiny expense compared to what you are paying your computer operators...

Don't be afraid to spend a little to get top notch performance. In the long run you will maximize your labor dollars - that's where the real money is. Also, look into equipment leasing - write off your hardware costs as business expense and be done with it.

Good luck!

Where the hell are you working that an ENTRY LEVEL computer operator make 50 grand a year? I know people with master's degrees that cant land a 35k a year job to stay afloat.

As for the Workstations. I recommend HP, while our needs arent as graphically demanding as yours, we still opted for the lower end Quadro line on the Z400 Workstation. 3.0GHz Xeon machines. RAID capability built right in, 6 SATA ports available. Solid state does make a huge difference. ESPECIALLY in RAID 0. We have some older workstations with Dual 1.8GHz dual core procs and they are still chugging even at 3 years. Though like has been said, they are showing thier age, though still perfectly viable machines, the warranty is up and we are upgrading.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[imagoon]

Where the hell are you working that an ENTRY LEVEL computer operator make 50 grand a year? I know people with master's degrees that cant land a 35k a year job to stay afloat.

As for the Workstations. I recommend HP, while our needs arent as graphically demanding as yours, we still opted for the lower end Quadro line on the Z400 Workstation. 3.0GHz Xeon machines. RAID capability built right in, 6 SATA ports available. Solid state does make a huge difference. ESPECIALLY in RAID 0. We have some older workstations with Dual 1.8GHz dual core procs and they are still chugging even at 3 years. Though like has been said, they are showing thier age, though still perfectly viable machines, the warranty is up and we are upgrading.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

It is not insane for an entry level CAD operator. The ones here make more than that.

 

[gsaldivar]

Thanks for this, i'll be sure to bring this up - i would say that we probably lose at least 8 hours a month in waiting for our machines or recovering work after a crash.

No problem.

Continuing with the rough example of $50k salary for a computer operator:

8 hours downtime a month works out to about $2,308 per year of wasted time or $11,538 over the course of your projected 5 year equipment lifespan. And that assumes that only one person is involved with that downtime (which is almost never the case). Once you add an IT person into the mix, or situations where a group of people is down instead of just the one - you start getting into some really scary numbers...

Labor is always the biggest business expense. Next to that, hardware is cheap cheap cheap. My advice is to run the numbers, get some quotes from knowledgeable integrators (who are certified to build pro level solutions for your industry) and pass those quotes on to your superiors along with your recommendations. I wouldn't build the machines yourself, unless you want to own any problems that come up down the road. Let an integrator do it, and be sure to add any support/service contract into the mix.

Your low number should start at around $5000/seat and go up from there. Even at that price, believe me - they are getting a bargain. I've sold user workstations (not servers) that cost 3 times that, and its an easy sell if you do your homework on the numbers and show them how much they stand to lose in wasted time by going cheap. You really just need to show them the numbers and show them where the real money is going.