Odd statement by military officer

[Moonbeam]

This thread is very painful for me. I go back quite a way with AndrewR, at least to a thread in which he espouced torturing the CIA spy to find out what he told the Russians. I felt it was a point of view so foreign to what America stands for on the surface, but to which I fear there are more than too many willing to buy into in the name of patriotism, that I thought, like other forms of hate speach, the speaker should be banned. But that will really do nothing. The reason it's painful to me is that I think AndrewR is a patriot, maybe also a fanatic, but definitely a patriot. I sincerely believe he loves this country, and wearing a uniform suggests that he would die for it. What I can't understand is the disjunction between love of country and the seeming complete lack of comprehension of the spirit behind it's founding.

I see this dog pile on AndrewR by some who are military and a lot more to the right than me and I think, damn I'm glad its them and not me that's telling him this stuff. But what will be the result. Will he just shine you all on too. How do you reach somebody like this who's just plain up side down in the heart. I hope he listens, but lots of people, when criticized, just dig in deeper.

The way I see it he is saying that unless your response in war is to destroy thoughtlessly and autonomically, and I think that is exactly the intention of military training, then you may hesitate at a critical moment and cost your own and your fellow soldiers lives. I can understand and appreciate that sentiment, but to completely suppress all human feeling is to cease to be human.

You are very hard, AndrewR. I salute your hardness. You are doubtless as hard on your self as you are on others. You doubtless also neither want need, and probably dispise and softness I can show to you, but I still hope that if you are driven by demons that you find some peace. Lots of people are weak and vulnerable and still get by. Anyway, best wishes.

 

[Hammer]

You guys are being awfully hard on AndrewR. I don't think its wrong that his AF chick showed some sympathy. She did get the job done. But I'm not going to criticize AndrewR for his feelings either. Not everything in this world is nice, convenient, or has a nice pretty pink bow on it. We need all kinds of people serving our country. Including people willing and able to do the not so nice stuff which we don't hear about, but is nonetheless necessary to ensure the national security of our country.

 

[Aceman]

I feel the biggest reason for the citicism aimed towards AndrewR is drawn from the fellow vets of wars on this board. I don't believe that AndrewR has ever faced the Hell of war. You know not what war is nor how you would react to a situation until you have gone through the Hell of war. The Gulf War and Panama was nothing in comparison to what my father-in-law went through in Vietnam. Never the less, instinct and survival take over over when someone is firing at you with the intent to kill. The Predator "pilot" was in a safe area free from the worries of being shot before she shot. It's a natural reaction. Now, if that was a soldier attacking that mud hut and realizing the enemy is possibly going to be shooting back, he's not going to have the same reaction. He might have (and probably will have) remorse after the action, but not during the action.

I am neither truly proud nor ashamed of what I have done in my 15 yearsin the Army. I have done my job as a soldier and will continue to do so for another 7-10 years.

 

[alrocky]

You cannot tell from text of the Predator captain's quote nor from the brief mention of her in the refererenced article what the tone of her voice was or what she reallly felt toward the enemy at the time. She was in a safe location watching bad guys who weren't actively fighting Americans. Awaiting their impending doom was probably like watching an a train wreck about to happen and not being able to do a thing about it. A human being can hold conflicting ideas in their mind and for a moment she saw also men not just enemy. There is of course the irony of not being able to help those people/enemy you just ordered an air stike against. The mind is funny like that. He|| maybe she said: "...You're going to be killed, you MFs!" but MSNBC edited the last part.

 

[OutHouse]

hey andrewR arent you a JAG weinie? Im pretty sure you sit at desk and push paper.

Until you are put in a position to pull a trigger that causes the death of other humans, you have no business to pass judgement what that person should feel or think.


Citrix << AF Security Police Veteran (Operation Just Cause, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm).

 

[glenn1]

<< hey andrewR arent you a JAG weinie? Im pretty sure you sit at desk and push paper.

Until you are put in a position to pull a trigger that causes the death of other humans, you have no business to pass judgement what that person should feel or think. >>



That's not a fair statement. A parallel analogy would be that of someone sitting on a capital crime jury, that because they don't personally administer the lethal injection, shouldn't feel remorse over having to pass judgement on his fellow man and decide whether the death penalty is appropriate for his crimes.

Also, to say that JAG officers have no influence on life and death decisions is incorrect. Not long ago, a Predator in Afghanistan had Sheik Omar in its sights, Gen. Franks decided not to give the order to fire, based on the advice of his JAG officer.

 

[Kadarin]

Disconnect from humanity in this case is very easy: Simply repeat over and over "these are the people who are responsible for the WTC terrorist attack". I would have no problem piloting that aircraft and firing that missle, over and over and over again.

However, I would be rather upset if it turned out I had killed some innocent people.

 

[flavio]

I wish that there were no people who actually enjoyed killing others.

Glad to see most everyone thinks she did fine.

 

[AndrewR]

Also, to say that JAG officers have no influence on life and death decisions is incorrect.

JAG officers have a great deal of control over life and death because many targeting decisions go over their desks.

BTW, I've edited my posts to change the tone. Mine was a knee jerk reaction to what I read. I don't fundamentally change my opinion, however.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

I don't find it odd at all.

These people, our enemies, are human. As much as we would prefer to think otherwise they are. With families, friends, hopes, dreams, and fears.
Thier death will affect many people around them for many years and thier pain will be very real and very much the same pain we feel in the same situation.

That said, I would pull the trigger without hesitation, but not without a thought of remorse.

It really is Us vs Them. There are no real evil ones here. We are all evil.
The United States has to do very evil things at times to protect it's interests. Don't be naive to think otherwise.
But, as a US citizen, I expect my country to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to protect our sovereignty and freedoms.
Isn't it reasonable for say an Iraqi citizen to expect the same of thier goverment?

It's not about whose right. It's about who wins. And no amount of peacniks marching with 'Make love, not war' posters will change that.
It's been this way since Day One, and it will be this way till the last days. We are animals, this is the jungle, let the strongest survive.

I don't like the game, but I would be a fool not to play it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought the reason you played the game that way, Franses, was what you said in another post, "that you are scum like me". Your diagnosis isn't bad, but your race to claim the territory at the bottom of the barrel as truth is, in my opinion, nothing more than an effort to forstall the realization that your view of the world is the result of having your nose in your own armpit. We are the world. Have a care as to what you make of it.

 

[Bulk Beef]

You know, I don't even read any sympathy on this woman's part into this. The way she describes it makes it sound like she was reacting the same way you might if you went to see some crappy horror movie, saw the guy walking into the basement, knew the guy was going to get killed by the bad guy in the basement, etc. Just my take on it.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< I thought the reason you played the game that way, Franses, was what you said in another post, "that you are scum like me". Your diagnosis isn't bad, but your race to claim the territory at the bottom of the barrel as truth is, in my opinion, nothing more than an effort to forstall the realization that your view of the world is the result of having your nose in your own armpit. We are the world. Have a care as to what you make of it. >>



And your inability to live in reality without applying your Berkely-esque
wet dreams of the 'way things should be' is, in my opinion, nothing more
than a defense mechanism in response to your inability to accept that you are nothing.
You can 'intellectualise' the world as much as you want, and sit in cafes and discuss the evils of the world over latte',
but you will not change it. It's kind of sweet, yet sad, that you think you can.
Your grand visions (or delusions) of the world have no basis in reality.
History has proved you wrong over, and over and over and over and over.

You literally 'think you can think' the problems of the world away.

Again, I don't like the game, I wish it was different, but I would be a fool not to play the game.

Just like WW1, just like WW2, and all the wars before it and after it, while you and people like you sit
and discuss the ethics and morality of conflict, others are dying in defense of your right to be a pansy ass.
Remember that.

<<We are the world.>>

ROFL!

Puhlease.

This isn't 1985 and you aren't Michael Jackson.

 

[Red Dawn]

If I were in her position I would have already dehumanized them in my mind so that it wouldn't bother me in the least watching them get blown to smithereens. To me they'd be no better than vermin because if I thought of them any other way I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger.. well pull the trigger when I'm ambushing them. Killing them in self defence is just a matter of survival and were you don't have to cast your humanity aside.

 

[Moonbeam]

You live by the certainty of truth and are no fool.

I live by the lunacy of a fevered dream.

Who is the pansy ass?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I would not be too hasty to judge someone who was reluctant to bloody their hands. It never really comes off you know. I imagine I would have hesitated too, and she did what she percieved as her duty. Who among you would have done better?

 

[AndrewR]

hey andrewR arent you a JAG weinie? Im pretty sure you sit at desk and push paper.

No, I am not affiliated with JAG, thank God.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< You live by the certainty of truth and are no fool.

I live by the lunacy of a fevered dream.

Who is the pansy ass? >>



Are you saying in takes more courage to live in fantasy than it does to live in reality?
First time I've heard that.