I recently bought some high end Corsair memory at a premium specifically because I could not trust OCZ based on all the crap I've read about them. It'll take more than just an apology letter and a promise to do better for the buying public to trust them. What can they do? I dont know...
I think that we need to revisit OCZ's past offences before we make a decision. I remember that OCZ was saying that they made their own RAM, but they were actually rebranding other peoples' sticks as their own. Their company was also quite shady in the way that they did business. Apparently the worst problem was they were hand-picking RAM that they gave to reviewers. I don't know that this is unheard of, I saw a couple of reviews of people that actually went out and got some sticks off the shelves. While everyone else's RAM was still performing the same, each review showed a marked decline in performance (read: overclockability) in the OCZ sticks.
I'll tell you this: whenever I see a review of OCZ memory, I completely skip it. Why? Because what the hell do I care how a stick of memory that I wouldn't even consider buying performs? Corsair, Crucial, Geil, Kingston, and Mushkin are the only companies that I would buy from. I don't even buy Samsung because I flat out don't believe anyone that tells me that I'm buying Samsung RAM because it's usually - at best - Samsung chips on a generic PCB. If I knew a place that consistently sold Samsung RAM on Samsung PCBs I wouldn't have quite the problem with them that I have. The bottom line is, even though Samsung is arguably the overclocking king of DDR RAM and the highest-quality RAM manufacturer on the planet, I won't buy them because I can't be 100% certain that I'm getting a genuine Samsung part.
These same concerns go without saying when it comes to OCZ.
I'll tell you this: whenever I see a review of OCZ memory, I completely skip it. Why? Because what the hell do I care how a stick of memory that I wouldn't even consider buying performs? Corsair, Crucial, Geil, Kingston, and Mushkin are the only companies that I would buy from. I don't even buy Samsung because I flat out don't believe anyone that tells me that I'm buying Samsung RAM because it's usually - at best - Samsung chips on a generic PCB. If I knew a place that consistently sold Samsung RAM on Samsung PCBs I wouldn't have quite the problem with them that I have. The bottom line is, even though Samsung is arguably the overclocking king of DDR RAM and the highest-quality RAM manufacturer on the planet, I won't buy them because I can't be 100% certain that I'm getting a genuine Samsung part.
These same concerns go without saying when it comes to OCZ.
If even one more person gets cheated, whether they know it or not, its not worth it to give them the time of day. Never bought from them, never will, and I'd rather see anandtech put up a disclaimer NOT to buy from them rather than endorsing them.
I say we hold them to the same standards we hold traders in the FS/T forums. If a trader goes around cheating people what do they do? They blacklist his ass! If he comes back and says he's changed his ways, does everyone say OK, you get another chance? HELL NO! From the sounds of it, they cheated tons of people, not just one. And anandtech wants to endorse them? Thats absurd!
Once a cheater, always a cheater. Unless theyre under new management, forget about em.
I say we hold them to the same standards we hold traders in the FS/T forums. If a trader goes around cheating people what do they do? They blacklist his ass! If he comes back and says he's changed his ways, does everyone say OK, you get another chance? HELL NO! From the sounds of it, they cheated tons of people, not just one. And anandtech wants to endorse them? Thats absurd!
Once a cheater, always a cheater. Unless theyre under new management, forget about em.
I like the idea of a target rating over a 6 month period. Internet people are some of the most unforgiving people. Maybe they did do some shady stuff a long time ago. How many companies haven't?
People keep bringing up the stupid "overclocked 2100 or 2700" idiocy everytime there is a post about OCZ. These people shouldn't be listened to as they are just regurgitating something that they read and didn't understand since even the 2700 spec is pretty recent, everything before that was essentially "overclocked". Yes, even Mushkin, and even Corsair. Gasp!
Reseller ratings are a double edged sword. When people have a good experience, they don't really talk about it much. The people that have a less than perfect experience cry like their livelihood was taken away from them.
An example, I forget the company, but they had a price mistake on a video card, people ordered it and the automated verification system put the order through over the weekend. The place got notice and canceled the orders, sending out e-mails. Their mistake was in not letting the people rob them blind. Within hours their rating which was in the mid to high 8 range IIRC, was tanked to hell and back. They even tried to pacify these people by giving them 20 bucks off their next order, but the damage was done. Not the same thing, but shows how someones ratings don't necessarily show the whole truth. Have you read some of the peoples comments? "They made a mistake in my order. It took longer to fix the mistake than it did to get my original order. (Surprise, surprise) They are teh suck."
I'll give them a chance next time I need memory or a heatsink. If there is a problem, I will dispute the charges with my bank. End of problems. Everything that I heard about them being different companies and having various fronts all originated from that one MO post. Did anyone ever follow up on that?
As far as rebadging goes, there only a handful of companies that actually make memory chips, but hella many companies that put together sticks. Are they saying that they made the chips or that they made the sticks? If you are stupid, you might think that they made the chips.
Every company has at least one person that isn't happy with their service. Newegg sent me a retail board with the heatsink clips broken and the inner box all dented. However, I won't get on the forums and revile them for all eternity like they were Hitler Part Deux or something like people are doing to OCZ.
People keep bringing up the stupid "overclocked 2100 or 2700" idiocy everytime there is a post about OCZ. These people shouldn't be listened to as they are just regurgitating something that they read and didn't understand since even the 2700 spec is pretty recent, everything before that was essentially "overclocked". Yes, even Mushkin, and even Corsair. Gasp!
Reseller ratings are a double edged sword. When people have a good experience, they don't really talk about it much. The people that have a less than perfect experience cry like their livelihood was taken away from them.
An example, I forget the company, but they had a price mistake on a video card, people ordered it and the automated verification system put the order through over the weekend. The place got notice and canceled the orders, sending out e-mails. Their mistake was in not letting the people rob them blind. Within hours their rating which was in the mid to high 8 range IIRC, was tanked to hell and back. They even tried to pacify these people by giving them 20 bucks off their next order, but the damage was done. Not the same thing, but shows how someones ratings don't necessarily show the whole truth. Have you read some of the peoples comments? "They made a mistake in my order. It took longer to fix the mistake than it did to get my original order. (Surprise, surprise) They are teh suck."
I'll give them a chance next time I need memory or a heatsink. If there is a problem, I will dispute the charges with my bank. End of problems. Everything that I heard about them being different companies and having various fronts all originated from that one MO post. Did anyone ever follow up on that?
As far as rebadging goes, there only a handful of companies that actually make memory chips, but hella many companies that put together sticks. Are they saying that they made the chips or that they made the sticks? If you are stupid, you might think that they made the chips.
Every company has at least one person that isn't happy with their service. Newegg sent me a retail board with the heatsink clips broken and the inner box all dented. However, I won't get on the forums and revile them for all eternity like they were Hitler Part Deux or something like people are doing to OCZ.
BD2003's first post:
Remember, we are not endorsing the resellers in our price guides. Those are not advertisements or promotions. We simply look through the most reliable resellers, and select among them the most reasonable and stable pricings. This also goes for manufacturers. We are not recommending a product unless it has a PICK or an editors choice rating on it.
Some resellers and manufacturers think of it as somewhat of a privledge to be listed on our Price Guides. This is the first time we are deciding the fate of a 'manufacturer' in an open and democratic matter. I appreciate all of the feedback so far!
OCZ memory scandals are not the only scandal that OCZ was involved in.
Some others included:
Repackaged products from other companys
Actively Owning and running "review" websites, with curiously good reviews of OCZ products
Talking up their own production of all products, when they probably did not manufacture much of it.
Mike
Some others included:
Repackaged products from other companys
Actively Owning and running "review" websites, with curiously good reviews of OCZ products
Talking up their own production of all products, when they probably did not manufacture much of it.
Mike
That's a great idea.
Here's another one: if you can, get permission to include reseller ratings for each of the vendor's you list, (or if you cannot, then include a link for each reseller so people can view the ratings)
That is not entirely true for ALL mfg's.
[*]Samsung uses true 5ns chips on their DDR400 (PC3200) modules.
[*]Corsair now uses 5ns Winbond chips on their PC3200 as well.
[*]Geil mfg's their own 4.5ns & 5ns chips
etc....
You guys have already summed up my thoughts for the most part. However, in regards to OCZ, I will continue to steer clear of anything that they sell (rebadge) since their shady business practices have deceived many. In regards to their advertising on AnandTech, I sure hope the AnandTech advertising team will follow the general concensus of this thread........Caveat Emptor!
I was searching back on some of the past grievances of OCZ, and came across something that really pissed me off at the time. Back in December of last year, Stomped.com closed their doors. Why? In part because OCZ refused to pay for several months worth of advertising.
Link
Water under the bridge?
Link
Water under the bridge?
documented proof re: review site influence? no.
AthlonOC and HardwareOC.com as well as ocz were registered to the owner of OCZ. Both websites are no longer existant, and were both shutdown shortly after they were revealed to be teh same owner.
Normally, this would have not been too suspicious since it is just a domain name, but the fact that OCZ was not exactly "unshadY" with their other dealings, as well as both websites slamming any non OCZ products raised serious eyebrows at the time.
Mike
AthlonOC and HardwareOC.com as well as ocz were registered to the owner of OCZ. Both websites are no longer existant, and were both shutdown shortly after they were revealed to be teh same owner.
Normally, this would have not been too suspicious since it is just a domain name, but the fact that OCZ was not exactly "unshadY" with their other dealings, as well as both websites slamming any non OCZ products raised serious eyebrows at the time.
Mike
i have not purchased from them in the past, but here are my 2 cents anyway.
a vendor should not solicit any sort of "listing" in these price guides. guides should be free of store names, except for ads, and only involve models and makes. there is a caveat of course, if the vendor makes the memory, like crucial\micron does. but then, we come into the website or magazine's base for the price guides. are they true guides, or advertising? if it is more towards the advertising, there is no point in discussing this. if it is a true guide, then there is a debate.
the price guide is a means by which a site can recommend a product or series of products which are known to be good (cheap, high end, bang for buck, etc, depending on type of guide). if the model\make of the product is good, then so be it, it belong in the guides.
now back to ocz. under the assumption of their "turn around" from the "poor ratings and upset readers" of the past is in fact, real, then they are welcome to be in the guides. of course the only way to tell is over time. read the more recent comments made by ppl. but remember the comments made in the past. if effort exists, and is consistent over some extended period to be determined by whoever, then so be it. put them back.
what i recommend is putting a disclaimer there for ocz, and see if any further complaints are generated. after all, these are guides, and anandtech is not responsible for what ppl buy.
a vendor should not solicit any sort of "listing" in these price guides. guides should be free of store names, except for ads, and only involve models and makes. there is a caveat of course, if the vendor makes the memory, like crucial\micron does. but then, we come into the website or magazine's base for the price guides. are they true guides, or advertising? if it is more towards the advertising, there is no point in discussing this. if it is a true guide, then there is a debate.
the price guide is a means by which a site can recommend a product or series of products which are known to be good (cheap, high end, bang for buck, etc, depending on type of guide). if the model\make of the product is good, then so be it, it belong in the guides.
now back to ocz. under the assumption of their "turn around" from the "poor ratings and upset readers" of the past is in fact, real, then they are welcome to be in the guides. of course the only way to tell is over time. read the more recent comments made by ppl. but remember the comments made in the past. if effort exists, and is consistent over some extended period to be determined by whoever, then so be it. put them back.
what i recommend is putting a disclaimer there for ocz, and see if any further complaints are generated. after all, these are guides, and anandtech is not responsible for what ppl buy.
grant2's first post:
I do not need permission to do that! (i dont think I do anyway). I believe I might implement this as well. The problem is memory manufacturers trend the fine line of being resellers AND manufacturers. I believe I will further develop your idea of listing AnandTech reseller ratings, Resellerratings.com ratings and BizRate.com ratings, as they all have been discussed with the AT editorial staff in the past.
John's first post:
To my knowledge I am very sure OCZ was never discussed as an advertiser for the site. However, if it comes up in staff meetings I will be sure to let the reactions in this thread be known.
kgraeme's first post:
Another excellent reason that I will make John's opinion known during any mention of an OCZ advertising campaign =)
MDays first post:
The problem with this solution is that quite simply a volume of readers ask "Well where can i find X product for Y price." I believe 'other' hardware review websites have attempted this approach, and in my opinion it does not work. If they can find a product for 38USD then I want to know where. (does that make sense?)
Remember OCZ is in the unique position as both a reseller AND a manufactuer.
On a personal note, I want to express my opinions again as this is truely adding to my understanding of patterns in the price guides from the perspective of our most loyal readers. I would like to thank everyone as your opinions are truely invaluable. Even though it may only be a personal mission, I hope someday that the Price Guides we post might be the best availble. With the feedback I have been receiving from you through forum posts an email, I can rest assured we are all heading in the right direction!
Cheers,
Kristopher
kkubicki at anandtech.com
I do not need permission to do that! (i dont think I do anyway). I believe I might implement this as well. The problem is memory manufacturers trend the fine line of being resellers AND manufacturers. I believe I will further develop your idea of listing AnandTech reseller ratings, Resellerratings.com ratings and BizRate.com ratings, as they all have been discussed with the AT editorial staff in the past.
John's first post:
To my knowledge I am very sure OCZ was never discussed as an advertiser for the site. However, if it comes up in staff meetings I will be sure to let the reactions in this thread be known.
kgraeme's first post:
Another excellent reason that I will make John's opinion known during any mention of an OCZ advertising campaign =)
MDays first post:
The problem with this solution is that quite simply a volume of readers ask "Well where can i find X product for Y price." I believe 'other' hardware review websites have attempted this approach, and in my opinion it does not work. If they can find a product for 38USD then I want to know where. (does that make sense?)
Remember OCZ is in the unique position as both a reseller AND a manufactuer.
On a personal note, I want to express my opinions again as this is truely adding to my understanding of patterns in the price guides from the perspective of our most loyal readers. I would like to thank everyone as your opinions are truely invaluable. Even though it may only be a personal mission, I hope someday that the Price Guides we post might be the best availble. With the feedback I have been receiving from you through forum posts an email, I can rest assured we are all heading in the right direction!
Cheers,
Kristopher
kkubicki at anandtech.com
Don't forget theoverclockerzstore.com which is now also defunct.
At the time all this was coming out, I recall that people not only did whois searches, but also went to the address the businesses were located at. It was basically nothing more than a low rent strip mall storefront. No massive manufacturing plant. IIRC, the GeForce cards they sold under the OCZ name were just rebadged Visiontek cards. Not even a new production of the reference NVIDIA design.
But still, I will say that I have not dealt personally with OCZ so all my points are anecdotal. However, there are plenty of highly reputable vendors to choose from that don't have an albatross about their necks.
Actually, this thread brings up an interesting question. Just how do you pick which vendors will be used for the price guides? For instance, I notice you don't have 18004memory.com in there. That's a solid mass market vendor. I also notice that you don't have Mushkin which caters to the enthusiast. It appears that the price guide is limited mostly to the AT inbred vendors Newegg and GoogleGear. (I say inbred somewhat tongue in cheek. It just seems that people here don't shop around.)
When I placed my order w/ them they had horrible customer service and the memory that i bought from them does not fuction as they had advertised 
At the time I payed I think an extra 20 or 30 dollars for this "better" memory but I ended up losing out in the end
At the time I payed I think an extra 20 or 30 dollars for this "better" memory but I ended up losing out in the end kgraeme's first post:
Excellent question. As far as products go, we mainly list due to demand. In all honesty, you are the first person to request that I list mushkin memory. If enough people ask for it, I have no problem listing their memory. However, to my knowledge don't they just use Samsung chips on their own PCB? (not much different then GeIL i guess)
As for the part about vendors: the way the guides done is indiscriminate. I have somewhat mixed feelings when I look at my table and 80% of the resellers listed are Newegg of Googlegear. However, I have been doing this for several months now; those two simply have the best service mixed with the best prices. The thing that sets these two vendors (and a small percentage of others) apart is their shipping charges. Next time you go to these vendors, check out how the majority of the items are free or under a dollar to ship. Unfortunately, an item will cost the same on Crucial.com as it will on NewEgg, but NE will give you free shipping.
I will look into adding 18004memory.com. Their performance is less than stellar on ResellerRatings.com:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2426.html
When they gain a stronger following I will have no problem listing them.
If anyone else is interested in how we determine pricings for the guide, please feel free to email me kkubicki at anandtech dot com.
Cheers,
Kristopher
Excellent question. As far as products go, we mainly list due to demand. In all honesty, you are the first person to request that I list mushkin memory. If enough people ask for it, I have no problem listing their memory. However, to my knowledge don't they just use Samsung chips on their own PCB? (not much different then GeIL i guess)
As for the part about vendors: the way the guides done is indiscriminate. I have somewhat mixed feelings when I look at my table and 80% of the resellers listed are Newegg of Googlegear. However, I have been doing this for several months now; those two simply have the best service mixed with the best prices. The thing that sets these two vendors (and a small percentage of others) apart is their shipping charges. Next time you go to these vendors, check out how the majority of the items are free or under a dollar to ship. Unfortunately, an item will cost the same on Crucial.com as it will on NewEgg, but NE will give you free shipping.
I will look into adding 18004memory.com. Their performance is less than stellar on ResellerRatings.com:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2426.html
When they gain a stronger following I will have no problem listing them.
If anyone else is interested in how we determine pricings for the guide, please feel free to email me kkubicki at anandtech dot com.
Cheers,
Kristopher
I say this in reply to what kgraeme said, but also in general to the thread.
I used to be just like kgraeme. I always said that, while Newegg.com has really good prices, they're not always the best. You have to look around on places like Pricewatch.com and find the best prices to save some money. However, I got screwed by a couple of other vendors on some purchases I was making for a friend. The whole ordeal was quite a mess. I then ordered the next system I built entirely from Newegg.com. Everything was delivered quickly and in great packaging. Do you have any idea how hard it would be for someone with as many ratings as Newegg.com to have such a high Reseller Rating? As someone else said, it's human nature to usually only spend the time to give feedback when something bad happens. However, I have yet to hear of a single person say that their experience was so bad with Newegg.com that they'd never go back. Not one. So, for me, it's completely worth it to go there and only there. I recommend only Googlegear, Newegg and MWave because I know that nobody will get screwed by them.
When businesses spend the time to make sure that their practices are as fair as possible and their methods are as efficient as possible, that gives them the opportunity to prosper, while at the same time being beneficial to customers. Both get exactly what they're looking for. So, as a "reward", I make sure to tell everyone I know about Newegg because of how wonderful they are.
With OCZ, their confidence with the consumer is lost, IMO. They've done too many things that were dishonest to be considered reliable again. And let's assume for one minute that there's actually new management in there that cares about customers. You know what? They should have thought about the reputation of the company they were taking over. Why would they even call it OCZ except to use the name recognition? If they want to use OCZ's name, then they're going to have to take the good with the bad. If they spend enough time actually listening to customers and fulfilling their needs, the Reseller Ratings will come in due time. People like myself that are here frequently know what the general "feel" of the forums are. When there is a true "feeling" that OCZ has changed its ways, then and only they will they deserve a spot on your guides. Never before.
For any business majors out there, it's the basic principles of Total Quality Management; when you sell a quality product with a quality service and support to back it up, you will keep the business you have and slowly get more and more business. You won't need to ask for acceptance from a website's staff writers, you'll make them fools not to include you.
OCZ is undeserving of a place in your guides and I sincerely hope that they do not find their way there.
I've been screwed by both Newegg and MWave. And I never fill out reseller ratings. I just move on.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
Resellerratings should be a guide but not a bible.
Ever since a couple dozen or so people gang-trashed Zones.com because they didn't honor an obvious pricing error for a deal that someone posted here in HotDeals, I've completely lost respect for the ratings (as well as some members here.)
Ever since a couple dozen or so people gang-trashed Zones.com because they didn't honor an obvious pricing error for a deal that someone posted here in HotDeals, I've completely lost respect for the ratings (as well as some members here.)
I am writing this message from a computer using OCZ PC1066 RDRAM which will not run at 1066. It is in fact overclocked PC800.
If the company is willing to do the responsible thing and refund my money than I will support their reinstatement.
Yeah, when pigs fly!!!
If the company is willing to do the responsible thing and refund my money than I will support their reinstatement.
Yeah, when pigs fly!!!
I've never bought from them and infact live in UK, but tbh I find it bizarre you'd consider essentially reccomending & advertising a company like this just because they claim problems are "in the past". Reccomend a company because so many members keep saying how good they are, not because they were appalling and now claim to be OK. Until positive things keep being said about them (how many posts here contain the word "NewEgg"? most probably) I see no reason to list them, but then its not like my opinion counts really.
Over at forum.abit-usa.com in the Open Discussion forum they are the most voted for "favorite memory brand."
If OCZ is listed then there goes about all credibilty. They deserve zero chances with all the low life crap they've pulled.
They've made 6 or more hardware sites which of course post glowing reviews of their products while never letting others know they are owned by OCZ. That doesn't mean they are a thief of course, just very unethical.
Then consider the many many huge threads here and elsewhere about all their despicable practices (most are archived or auto deleted) and how many people were screwed around, and then how many new stores they've opened online only to then close it and make another after people find out they are OCZ.
They have a continued history of lying and being deceptive. See here
No, they deserve zero chances. Anyone who supports them is just as bad and only adds to the problem. Heck, why not all online sites who have a deserved bad rap come here and get a second chance then. Let's see, Tigerdirect, ems, etcc.. hmmm
Words I think of when I think of OCZ: liars, cheats, ethically challenged, low lifes, dishonest, despicable
Hey sue me, gitchy goomy. They've earned and deserve their bad wrap through years of practice.
They've made 6 or more hardware sites which of course post glowing reviews of their products while never letting others know they are owned by OCZ. That doesn't mean they are a thief of course, just very unethical.
Then consider the many many huge threads here and elsewhere about all their despicable practices (most are archived or auto deleted) and how many people were screwed around, and then how many new stores they've opened online only to then close it and make another after people find out they are OCZ.
They have a continued history of lying and being deceptive. See here
No, they deserve zero chances. Anyone who supports them is just as bad and only adds to the problem. Heck, why not all online sites who have a deserved bad rap come here and get a second chance then. Let's see, Tigerdirect, ems, etcc.. hmmm
Words I think of when I think of OCZ: liars, cheats, ethically challenged, low lifes, dishonest, despicable
Hey sue me, gitchy goomy. They've earned and deserve their bad wrap through years of practice.
I'd say sure give them another chance, list their products. If they screw up again... off with their heads!
Is it just their "products" that are in question as far as being listed or their "stores"?
From what I remember good vendors also sold OCZ products. If OCZ "products" are not listed, wouldn't that have a negative impact on these good vendors?
Reseller Ratings and forum buzz usually take care of bad producers. Of course there are those who won't listen and get mesmerized by "low price". Let them be the guinea pigs.
Is it just their "products" that are in question as far as being listed or their "stores"?
From what I remember good vendors also sold OCZ products. If OCZ "products" are not listed, wouldn't that have a negative impact on these good vendors?
Reseller Ratings and forum buzz usually take care of bad producers. Of course there are those who won't listen and get mesmerized by "low price". Let them be the guinea pigs.
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