#OccupyWallstreet

[OneOfTheseDays]

Hypocrisy at it's finest. America is in a sad state, especially when it's own citizen's defend the unjust actions of the justice system against their neighbors.

This x1000000000000000000000000

 

[Bowfinger]

Of course his opinion is rendererd after the fact. So would the opinion of any court case. After the fact is irrelevant.

As opposed to someone on the scene at the time, making a deliberate judgement that this person just resisted an attempted arrest, thus justifying the use of violence. This is different from someone looking for any after-the-fact excuse to justify abusive behavior. In other words, was "resisting arrest" actually a factor or was it just an excuse?

If the police grabbed one of their arms to pull them away, it was not so they could start dancing...or catch a movie.

How do you know? Maybe she was cute and he was hitting on her. "Ever done it in the back of a paddy wagon baby? Come with me and I'll show you how to really work a baton."

In all seriousness, if the claim of one woman pulling away her arm is true -- and I've not seen proof it is -- you cannot assume the officer was trying to arrest her. That's the point I've tried to make before. There's no evidence the UC Davis police were trying to arrest anyone yet. They were (as far as I can tell) just trying to disperse them. Those are two very different things.

 

[Bowfinger]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/pepperreport.pdf

The spray is designed for use as less-than-lethal force, adequate for incapacitating dangerous or violently resisting suspects.

Patrol Guide 212-95 lists five situations in which an officer may use pepper spray. Pepper spray may be used when a police officer “reasonably believes” that it is necessary to:
1) protect himself, or another from unlawful use of force (e.g., assault);
2) effect an arrest, or establish physical control of a subject resisting arrest;
3) establish physical control of a subject attempting to flee from arrest or custody;
4) establish physical control of an emotionally disturbed person (EDP); and
5) control a dangerous animal by deterring an attack, to prevent injury to persons or animals present

The Patrol Guide prohibits the use of pepper spray against subjects who passively resist (e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible, pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions.

NYC, I know, but I doubt that the rules differ that greatly for Davis.......

Since this was posted pages ago, yet is still being debated, here's a bump.

 

[Bowfinger]

Only if you ignore the "resisting arrest" part...oh, and pretend there is an AND in there when there is NOT an and. Why do you keep doing that?

Bowfinger keeps saying that no one is saying what you are saying. I give him the benefit of not knowing you were saying it. So why do you keep saying AND?



At that exact moment in time. You do realize that time started before that clip was cut out and posted online, right?

I understood him to be talking about the rest of the requirements and explanations, beyond the five specific justifications:

The spray is designed for use as less-than-lethal force, adequate for incapacitating dangerous or violently resisting suspects.

- and -

The Patrol Guide prohibits the use of pepper spray against subjects who passively resist (e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible, pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions.

Note that they aren't directly interconnected with the numbered list via either "and" or "or".

If he is actually trying to suggest all five of the numbered requirements must be met, I agree with you that he is reading it incorrectly. That seems unlikely given that those requirements cover quite different situations, virtually certain to never all occur simultaneously.

 

[cybrsage]

Ah, that could be. He is not very clear in what he is saying...and since he was quoting me I assumed he was talking about what I said.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Since this was posted pages ago, yet is still being debated, here's a bump.

Post it as many times as you like, the decision to use pepper spray lies with the Police Officers. Apparently they didn't violate any laws or they would be charged for violating said laws.

 

[Double Trouble]

The whole pepper spray thing was blown way out of proportion. It wasn't smart to use from a PR perspective, but I have absolutely no problem with the police using it to force compliance with the law. Not just walk up and start spraying, but after people have been told they're violating the law, and that the must disperse or further actions will be taken, as far as I'm concerned pepper spray is fine.

The 15 minutes for this stuff appears to finally be over, no news coverage over the past few days of it at all here on the news.

 

[monovillage]

As part of the continued debate in here about violence/non-violence, and what defines violence. I, of course turned to the Federal Government, the fount of so much wisdom. I found this from the National Institute of Justice.

http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/crime/violence-against-women/workshops/violence-theory.htm#corporate

"Corporate Violence

Dr. Lynch noted that, for the purpose of this conference, violence had been defined differently than his focus: corporate violence (e.g., white collar crime such as Enron). Criminologists usually do not look at violence in this framework. There has not been a concomitant decline in corporate violence, and it is not clear that the general theories address this type of violence. "

This along with some definitions of violence as being gestures, words, tone, shouting and body language. Sexual harassment is considered sexual violence by some and the breadth of what's considered domestic violence is pretty inclusive. Physicality is not a requirement of violence. Which brings us to my opinion that linking arms is a form of violence in that it requires a greater physical response for the police to arrest and establish physical control of a suspect resisting arrest.

 

[Jhhnn]

The whole pepper spray thing was blown way out of proportion. It wasn't smart to use from a PR perspective, but I have absolutely no problem with the police using it to force compliance with the law. Not just walk up and start spraying, but after people have been told they're violating the law, and that the must disperse or further actions will be taken, as far as I'm concerned pepper spray is fine.

The 15 minutes for this stuff appears to finally be over, no news coverage over the past few days of it at all here on the news.

I don't think that's true at all. It's one thing for police to use tear gas to disperse a large unruly crowd, but that's not what happened, at all. With small groups, like the protesters sitting on the sidewalk, the correct method is to pick 'em up and arrest them, haul 'em away to jail. Really.

Anybody who thinks pepper spray isn't a form of violence has never experienced the stuff. It's important for police to not initiate violence in such situations when they clearly have non-violent alternatives, which they obviously did.

 

[cybrsage]

As opposed to someone on the scene at the time, making a deliberate judgement that this person just resisted an attempted arrest, thus justifying the use of violence. This is different from someone looking for any after-the-fact excuse to justify abusive behavior. In other words, was "resisting arrest" actually a factor or was it just an excuse?

So you are now agreeing with the campus police, who were there at the time?

How do you know? Maybe she was cute and he was hitting on her. "Ever done it in the back of a paddy wagon baby? Come with me and I'll show you how to really work a baton."

Heh....maybe, maybe.

In all seriousness, if the claim of one woman pulling away her arm is true -- and I've not seen proof it is -- you cannot assume the officer was trying to arrest her. That's the point I've tried to make before. There's no evidence the UC Davis police were trying to arrest anyone yet. They were (as far as I can tell) just trying to disperse them. Those are two very different things.

Cannot really think of any other reason he would be physically grabbing her. She would have disobeyed his order to disperse so he started to arrest her. Happens all the time on the Campus PD show. College kids think they are both invincable and are world class attornies.

 

[thelastjuju]

OWS sucks.. its been a complete failure, especially since anybody who knows shit about the people who work on Wall St knows they are heartless scum. The absolute last people on this planet who would give two shits about another human being's misfortune.

People should be pissed off.. but OWS is a ragtag group of dummies.. nibbling at the edges of stale ideas. A hodgepodge of random ideas ranging from anarchist to marxist.

If only we could get massive amounts of people to protest the likes of FOX NEWS and MSNBC. These are the two biggest misinformation machines, contributing to the political divide in this country more than anything else.. but FOX is worse, since at least liberals will write off MSNBC for following in Fox's footsteps, while conservatives tend to embrace FOX and even defend the network against allegations of bias.

 

[cybrsage]

Don't forget CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS as well. The only REAL news source is The Daily Show!

 

[thelastjuju]

Don't forget CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS as well. The only REAL news source is The Daily Show!

No way.. CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS all at least STRIVE to be objective. They sensationalize, but they are not shilling..

With Fox and MSNBC, its the complete opposite. They STRIVE to infuse bias into every single topic. It really is as if they are contractually obligated to.

The formula is:

Smear a liberal, smear a Democrat, bring in prominent conservative guest, promote conservatism, pitch a Republican softball ?'s. Repeat. -Fox

Smear a conservative, smear a Republican, bring in prominent liberal guest, promote liberalism, pitch softballs to a Democrat. Repeat. -MSNBC

 

[cybrsage]

No way.. CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS all at least STRIVE to be objective. They sensationalize, but they are not shilling..

As long as they keep getting their news scoops from Kinkos...

With Fox and MSNBC, its the complete opposite. They STRIVE to infuse bias into every single topic. It really is as if they are contractually obligated to.

Depends on what you watch. Sure, the opinion shows are just that, opinion. It is true that many people think opinion shows are pure news shows, but they are not.

There are also news segments on FoxNews. But pure news is boring, which is why no one watches CNN for more than a few minutes at a shot anymore.

 

[HendrixFan]

I don't think that's true at all. It's one thing for police to use tear gas to disperse a large unruly crowd, but that's not what happened, at all. With small groups, like the protesters sitting on the sidewalk, the correct method is to pick 'em up and arrest them, haul 'em away to jail. Really.

Anybody who thinks pepper spray isn't a form of violence has never experienced the stuff. It's important for police to not initiate violence in such situations when they clearly have non-violent alternatives, which they obviously did.

Agreed 100%. I caught pepper spray from about 40 feet downwind and it brought me to my knees.

Unless it is being used to subdue someone who poses a direct threat, then it should not be used. Using it because someone is told they are breaking a law is stupid. The police are there to apprehend someone, the court system decides if a punishment is needed. Again, barring a direct threat, using pepper spray is punishment.

 

[monovillage]

Agreed 100%. I caught pepper spray from about 40 feet downwind and it brought me to my knees.

Unless it is being used to subdue someone who poses a direct threat, then it should not be used. Using it because someone is told they are breaking a law is stupid. The police are there to apprehend someone, the court system decides if a punishment is needed. Again, barring a direct threat, using pepper spray is punishment.

Self interest is a pretty strong driver of opinion.

 

[Zebo]

OWS sucks.. its been a complete failure, especially since anybody who knows shit about the people who work on Wall St knows they are heartless scum. The absolute last people on this planet who would give two shits about another human being's misfortune.

People should be pissed off.. but OWS is a ragtag group of dummies.. nibbling at the edges of stale ideas. A hodgepodge of random ideas ranging from anarchist to marxist.

If only we could get massive amounts of people to protest the likes of FOX NEWS and MSNBC. These are the two biggest misinformation machines, contributing to the political divide in this country more than anything else.. but FOX is worse, since at least liberals will write off MSNBC for following in Fox's footsteps, while conservatives tend to embrace FOX and even defend the network against allegations of bias.

Failure? It's just getting started. Main street is staying home ATM because everyone thinks that they can manage to somehow "get theirs" while "someone else" will take the hit.

I'm sorry to tell y'all that it isn't going to work out like that.

Everyone is gonna be fucked. Seniors, federal retirees, state workers, regular workers, police officers laying the beat downs - everyone but the fraudsters and the politicians who look the other way.

As far as dummies Bill Black isnt a dummy. He put 1000 fraudsters in jail during S&L crisis and claims he can put 10,000 in jail today. He was there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_AuvLTJNh0&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[michal1980]

Failure? It's just getting started. Main street is staying home ATM because everyone thinks that they can manage to somehow "get theirs" while "someone else" will take the hit.

I'm sorry to tell y'all that it isn't going to work out like that.

Everyone is gonna be fucked. Seniors, federal retirees, state workers, regular workers, police officers laying the beat downs - everyone but the fraudsters and the politicians who look the other way.

As far as dummies Bill Black isnt a dummy. He put 1000 fraudsters in jail during S&L crisis and claims he can put 10,000 in jail today. He was there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_AuvLTJNh0&feature=player_embedded#!

No OWS is dieing.

The level of interest is back down to before there nov 17 tantrum. And even that level of interest was lower then whatever their big thing was before.

 

[cybrsage]

There is nothing to worry about. In a few months, winter will set in and the OWS people will go back to their mothers' basements for warmth...and hopefully a bath.

 

[palehorse]

This sign pretty much sums up what most perceive is "OWS' message"...

 

[monovillage]

This sign pretty much sums up what most perceive as "OWS' message"...

Yes, it's accurate and kind of sad.

 

[Bowfinger]

This sign pretty much sums up what most Fox Nation-ers perceive is "OWS' message"...

FTFY

 

[Bowfinger]

Yes, it shows how effectively the corrupt elite use propaganda to manipulate weak minds.

FTFY too!

 

[dmcowen674]

The whole pepper spray thing was blown way out of proportion.

I have absolutely no problem with the police using it to force compliance with the law.

The 15 minutes for this stuff appears to finally be over, no news coverage over the past few days of it at all here on the news.

I expect those that got sprayed to be well represented in a massive lawsuit and expect that to be in the news in your face.

 

[palehorse]

FTFY

I don't watch Fox, but it happens to be my impression as well... the signs that make any sense certainly seem to be the exception, not the rule.