#OccupyWallstreet

[Craig234]

Good analogy, it would be more honest, accurate and truthful if the gang was labeled as the government and business people were still the business people and the police would then be the conservatives fighting to limit and control the power of the criminal gang. It's just a matter of perspective, and I think my perspective is closer to the truth.

More honest? That's offensive for you to say.

 

[airdata]

I'm loving how right wingers are anti government and pro government at the same time.

 

[Jhhnn]

Good analogy, it would be more honest, accurate and truthful if the gang was labeled as the government and business people were still the business people and the police would then be the conservatives fighting to limit and control the power of the criminal gang. It's just a matter of perspective, and I think my perspective is closer to the truth.

That's just... weird, not to mention utterly blind.

Righties are correct in the sense that our current situation is, in many respects, a failure of govt. But it's failed in the way they made it, the way they wanted it to be for the last 30 years or more.

Capitalism clearly needs constraints to keep it healthy, to make it the engine of growth that serves us all, rather than just a very, very few among us. We invited this near catastrophe on ourselves when we forgot the lessons of the past, of the circumstances that led to the Progressive era and then again to the New Deal.

Self regulated banking is an oxymoron.

The sacred Free Market is not rational or self correcting except in wide destructive swings- Mania and Depression.

High taxes on the wealthy & income redistribution are necessary economic self defense for the middle and working class, particularly in a free trade environment where workers have no leverage.

Capitalism is only benevolent when forced to be that way. Its natural tendency is predatory & exploitative, creating Plutonomy.

Our grandfathers & great grandfathers learned that 70 years ago, and demanded that the govt of the people act to both tame capitalism and save it from itself. We need something like that again today.

 

[dmcowen674]

Righties are correct in the sense that our current situation is, in many respects, a failure of govt. But it's failed in the way they made it, the way they wanted it to be for the last 30 years or more.

Capitalism clearly needs constraints to keep it healthy, to make it the engine of growth that serves us all, rather than just a very, very few among us.

We invited this near catastrophe on ourselves when we forgot the lessons of the past, of the circumstances that led to the Progressive era and then again to the New Deal.

Self regulated banking is an oxymoron.

The sacred Free Market is not rational or self correcting except in wide destructive swings- Mania and Depression.

High taxes on the wealthy & income redistribution are necessary economic self defense for the middle and working class, particularly in a free trade environment where workers have no leverage.

Capitalism is only benevolent when forced to be that way. Its natural tendency is predatory & exploitative, creating Plutonomy.

Our grandfathers & great grandfathers learned that 70 years ago, and demanded that the govt of the people act to both tame capitalism and save it from itself. We need something like that again today.

Excellent post sir :thumbsup:

The righty 1% is clearly getting nervous as they should be though as evidenced by their posts on here.

 

[spidey07]

Excellent post sir :thumbsup:

The righty 1% is clearly getting nervous as they should be though as evidenced by their posts on here.

As I've said plenty, I'm not nervous at all. This is a great thing as it exposes the far left fringe along with any democrat supporting it (and obama pushing it), their ideas and what their end goal is. Please keep it up!

It's doing wonders to expose what the left really believes. They won't come right out and say they're communists because of the bad connotations, but their motives and goals are the same. This has just shown to expose it what we've known for a long time.

 

[Jhhnn]

As I've said plenty, I'm not nervous at all. This is a great thing as it exposes the far left fringe along with any democrat supporting it (and obama pushing it), their ideas and what their end goal is. Please keep it up!

It's doing wonders to expose what the left really believes. They won't come right out and say they're communists because of the bad connotations, but their motives and goals are the same. This has just shown to expose it what we've known for a long time.

Yeh- that's why you own an arsenal and buy ammo in 1000 round lots, rave wingnut slogans incoherently on this forum- not nervous at all.

Here's what some of your fellow travelers have been up to-

“When it comes time to saving the Constitution, that means some people gotta die,” Thomas allegedly said.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...n_citizens_government_officials.php?ref=fpblg

Whack-a-doodle-doo!

Shouldn't you be doing some of that "hard work!" you rave about this time of day?

 

[palehorse]

You've gotten close to a left/right issue: is the danger private corruption or government?

Let's use an analogy. There's a gang in your city wanting to extort, etc.

They're pretty powerful; the money they take from private business is used to make them stronger allowing them to take even more. It's pretty crippling.

What's needed: the people to have a strong police force that battles the gang, arrests, imprisons them to the point they are not able to do their crime.

Let's say that they are powerful enough they have enough influence over the city government and police that not much is done to them - corruption.

Now, the right's solution is 'let's slash the police budget, restrict their rights to act, cripple the police because they're serving the gang. Then the police can harm the people less'.

However, that's win-win for the gang. If they corrupt the police, that's good for them. If the police are greatly weakened, that works for them even better.

So the people will go on blaming the police all day no matter how much they weaken them while the gang gets worse and worse.

The liberals on the other hand want to get GOOD government - a strong police department that is effective against the gang. They understand that the solution is to find a way to defeat the gang influence in elections to elect anti-gang politicians, to replace the corrupt police with ones who are not corrupt - and then have them strong to fight the gang.

This is reasonably analogous to the finance issue. The finance industry can do good for society while profiting and it can do great harm sucking out huge amounts of wealth.

The answer isn't gut government, weaken it to fix the problem of it being corrupted by an overly powerful finance industry and thereby give the crooks even MORE power.

Rather, it's to get good government - starting with taking the money out of elections, to help get politicians who are not paid for by Wall Street in office and then to regulate the financial industry so that it profits by benefiting the public instead of by draining wealth from the public.

The right would basically kill democracy off and make the crooks permanently powerful.

The liberals would restore democracy as the instrument of the people to fight the crooks.

I think only the liberal approach works. History would seem to agree.

That's not to say, to answer my own question, that government can't be a major problem. But that's pretty much in two situations: when private interests are too powerful and controlling government effectively to serve them and not the people. The other is when the government is 'all-powerful', the USSR type situation.

We don't really face any danger of the latter. If we did, we could and should talk about 'limiting government to prevent tyranny'.

It's the former that's the problem, which is where the ignorant and ideological right are fighting for the crooks to beat the people.

So you agree that the changes need to occur in Washington, and not on Wall Street ? That IS what you just wrote. Got it.

So, tell me again, why is OWS camped out on the gang members' porches?

(your analogy was horrible btw -- the drug user/dealer analogy, while still flawed, is much more accurate -- but, I won't get into all that...)

 

[Nebor]

Shouldn't you be doing some of that "hard work!" you rave about this time of day?

If he were I doubt he'd want to brag about it on here. :hmm:

 

[Jhhnn]

So you agree that the changes need to occur in Washington, and not on Wall Street ? That IS what you just wrote. Got it.

So, tell me again, why is OWS camped out on the gang members' porches?

(your analogy was horrible btw -- the drug user/dealer analogy, while still flawed, is much more accurate -- but, I won't get into all that...)

Poor form, putting words in other people's mouths, using that as a strawman.

Yeh, sure, Washington needs to change Wall St., because the only way they'll change on their own is for the worse.

The reason that OWS is on Wall St, In Oakland, Denver and a lot of other places is because it really is grassroots, not astroturfed like the Tea Party. I suspect they'll come to Washington in due course, when they're ready. It won't be on Koch Bros money or in buses chartered by Fox News, either.

 

[spidey07]

Poor form, putting words in other people's mouths, using that as a strawman.

Yeh, sure, Washington needs to change Wall St., because the only way they'll change on their own is for the worse.

The reason that OWS is on Wall St, In Oakland, Denver and a lot of other places is because it really is grassroots, not astroturfed like the Tea Party. I suspect they'll come to Washington in due course, when they're ready. It won't be on Koch Bros money or in buses chartered by Fox News, either.

Right, it will be acorn, SEIU, US communist party, socialist party, etc like it is today. Grass roots my ass, you're being played.

 

[airdata]

Right, it will be acorn, SEIU, US communist party, socialist party, etc like it is today. Grass roots my ass, you're being played.

I'm sure those fringe groups represent everybody that's at #occupy events.

 

[spidey07]

I'm sure those fringe groups represent everybody that's at #occupy events.

Almost everybody, that is very clear. They may not be direct members, but what they want is in perfect harmony with those groups goals and motives. If you don't believe that, you're ignoring reality.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm sure those fringe groups represent everybody that's at #occupy events.

Gotta luv the way that the right fringe demonizes Acorn, as if registering poor people to vote is like the invasion of Poland, or a harbinger of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Poor people are kinda scary- they're just like us, only they're poor. Might give reasonable people pause, reason to thank their lucky stars.

Nah. Fuck 'em. I got mine! Right, Spidey?

 

[momeNt]

Gotta luv the way that the right fringe demonizes Acorn, as if registering poor people to vote is like the invasion of Poland, or a harbinger of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Poor people are kinda scary- they're just like us, only they're poor. Might give reasonable people pause, reason to thank their lucky stars.

Nah. Fuck 'em. I got mine! Right, Spidey?

To quote a man on this very forum.

Tears in my eyes as big as horse turds, honest.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[airdata]

Almost everybody, that is very clear. They may not be direct members, but what they want is in perfect harmony with those groups goals and motives. If you don't believe that, you're ignoring reality.

Actually I think the majority of people out there are protesting the basic corporate greed agenda with an emphasis on the need to change things.

People like you are choosing to point out extremists in the bunch instead of just hugging it out and agreeing there is a problem.


We're in a depression. You may not be feeling it, but alot of people in the country are. And while all of this is going on, crooks on wallstreet are selling people investments for their retirement and then betting against the same investments. They're not going to jail either.

People are bribing politicians to push legislation to benefit their corporations and taking their time away from working on things to benefit our country.

This is a huge problem. This needs to be addressed. But then the people doing all of this have people like Spidey, and Patranus to go around diverting attention from the real issues.

 

[theeedude]

Occupy Wallstreet's mission is already accomplished, even with all snickering from rightwingers.
Discussion of income inequality and greed is front and center now. The populist genie is out of the bottle. This idea that the corporatists had that they got their bailouts and can go back to business as usual with no price to pay, that has been turned on its head. The American people won't stand for it anymore. The discussion has been framed. Trickle down economics is on its last legs.

 

[monovillage]

That's just... weird, not to mention utterly blind.

Righties are correct in the sense that our current situation is, in many respects, a failure of govt. But it's failed in the way they made it, the way they wanted it to be for the last 30 years or more.

Capitalism clearly needs constraints to keep it healthy, to make it the engine of growth that serves us all, rather than just a very, very few among us. We invited this near catastrophe on ourselves when we forgot the lessons of the past, of the circumstances that led to the Progressive era and then again to the New Deal.

Self regulated banking is an oxymoron.

The sacred Free Market is not rational or self correcting except in wide destructive swings- Mania and Depression.

High taxes on the wealthy & income redistribution are necessary economic self defense for the middle and working class, particularly in a free trade environment where workers have no leverage.

Capitalism is only benevolent when forced to be that way. Its natural tendency is predatory & exploitative, creating Plutonomy.

Our grandfathers & great grandfathers learned that 70 years ago, and demanded that the govt of the people act to both tame capitalism and save it from itself. We need something like that again today.

The main failure has been at the Government level, bad or unwise regulation that makes things worse, regulations that stifle competition, innovation and opportunity. There is no way in the world of fixing big business in this country if you don't fix the politicians first. BTW the last thing my father wanted 70 years ago was some asshat to walk up to him and say "I'm from the Government and i'm here to help"

 

[spidey07]

Actually I think the majority of people out there are protesting the basic corporate greed agenda with an emphasis on the need to change things.

People like you are choosing to point out extremists in the bunch instead of just hugging it out and agreeing there is a problem.


We're in a depression. You may not be feeling it, but alot of people in the country are. And while all of this is going on, crooks on wallstreet are selling people investments for their retirement and then betting against the same investments. They're not going to jail either.

People are bribing politicians to push legislation to benefit their corporations and taking their time away from working on things to benefit our country.

This is a huge problem. This needs to be addressed. But then the people doing all of this have people like Spidey, and Patranus to go around diverting attention from the real issues.

So focus your anger and attention to Obama and his administration. You voted for him because of the promise of transparency to end it and all he did was make it much, much worse. I all those that support this are so upset with Obama, I highly encourage you to not vote for him, make your voices be heard!

Do pay attention to this president as he stokes the flames of class warfare and the useful idiots gobble it up in droves.

I don't want to hug it out, I want nothing to do with what the protesters are proposing or any of the group "standing in solidarity" with them, fuck them. We agree on virtually nothing, they are the anti-America, the anti-capitalist.

 

[monovillage]

Occupy Wallstreet's mission is already accomplished, even with all snickering from rightwingers.
Discussion of income inequality and greed is front and center now. The populist genie is out of the bottle. This idea that the corporatists had that they got their bailouts and can go back to business as usual with no price to pay, that has been turned on its head. The American people won't stand for it anymore. The discussion has been framed. Trickle down economics is on its last legs.

Good, will you please send the clowns home then so i can walk downtown and not smell the stench of feces and urine?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Occupy Wallstreet's mission is already accomplished, even with all snickering from rightwingers.
Discussion of income inequality and greed is front and center now. The populist genie is out of the bottle. This idea that the corporatists had that they got their bailouts and can go back to business as usual with no price to pay, that has been turned on its head. The American people won't stand for it anymore. The discussion has been framed. Trickle down economics is on its last legs.

Really? Where are these discussions bring held? Internet forums? Internet blogs?

 

[monovillage]

No, no no, please no. They won, *OCCUPY* has defeated the evil forces of conservatives, capitalists and corporations. It's all over, I admit defeat, they can all celebrate by getting jobs. They won, the discussion is over. Please /thread

 

[fskimospy]

Really? Where are these discussions bring held? Internet forums? Internet blogs?

Hell, even the GOP leadership has been talking about how they understand the frustrations of OWS. When the ultra right wing of America is trying to talk up how understanding they are, you know you have totally won.

 

[theeedude]

Really? Where are these discussions bring held? Internet forums? Internet blogs?

Of course. But not exclusively.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Of course. But not exclusively.

The only thing that has been covered in the local media here in Houston is that Michael Moore chose to sign autographs rather than support OccupyHouston this past weekend. The OWS movement is rarely covered by local media here in Houston nor what little mainstream media (nightly news on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox) I've watched over the last month. Looks like the most support and attention is being shown in internet forums and blogs.

 

[theeedude]

The only thing that has been covered in the local media here in Houston is that Michael Moore chose to sign autographs rather than support OccupyHouston this past weekend. The OWS movement is rarely covered by local media here in Houston nor what little mainstream media (nightly news on MSNBC, CNN, or Fox) I've watched over the last month. Looks like the most support and attention is being shown in internet forums and blogs.

That's a good thing. The frame of the debate should be income inequality generally, not OWS movement specifically.