Obsession

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You always become what you fear.

What becomes of one whose only fear is God?

We become the god of fear, but he's usually called the Devil.

Not the answer I thought you'd give. Not at all.

Oh heck, I lost my post that fleshed out my answer, but would love to hear your answer instead.

Basically I said that I can't understand why anybody would fear God. I think it is fear that keeps us from knowing him. We would have to know that we are forgiven and can't forgive ourselves. We are way way way too worthless for that and would feel it.

Well, the fear of God is like the fear one would have for his/her parents. One who could only fear God would be in a state of absolute bliss, and a world of people who only feared God would be a world of Peace. Unfortunately we live in a world filled with fear of everything but God. Thus, IMO, your statement, "You always become what you fear," still holds water in all regards.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Heh, perhaps I did not speak clearly enough. I said that the answer to a fool IS silence, but that I don't mind spending many many words, as you commented I did, because as long as there's even a small chance you can understand me I will gladly try. You may be a fool, but I will gladly make the effort to change that if I can because YOU ARE worth the effort, in my opinion.

So, let's see what we had so far: you mentioned a spoon, a fork, and called me a fool; nothing yet to invalidate my question.

You can make wisecracks, or repeat some sayings as many times as you wish, but you are still avoiding the question -- which is exactly what I predicted in the original post.

Persistently calling for introspection, when faced with an adversary that that has no qualms about killing in the name of this or that god, is no different than advocating political corecteness, and tolerance of intolerance.

On May 20th, 2005, there was a demonstration in the UK where they chanted "UK you will pay", and, surely enough, less than two months later the UK paid. Would you care to argue that Brits are at fault, and that this was the product of their "fears"? Or were they merely projecting?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Heh, perhaps I did not speak clearly enough. I said that the answer to a fool IS silence, but that I don't mind spending many many words, as you commented I did, because as long as there's even a small chance you can understand me I will gladly try. You may be a fool, but I will gladly make the effort to change that if I can because YOU ARE worth the effort, in my opinion.

So, let's see what we had so far: you mentioned a spoon, a fork, and called me a fool; nothing yet to invalidate my question.

You can make wisecracks, or repeat some sayings as many times as you wish, but you are still avoiding the question -- which is exactly what I predicted in the original post.

Persistently calling for introspection, when faced with an adversary that that has no qualms about killing in the name of this or that god, is no different than advocating political corecteness, and tolerance of intolerance.

On May 20th, 2005, there was a demonstration in the UK where they chanted "UK you will pay", and, surely enough, less than two months later the UK paid. Would you care to argue that Brits are at fault, and that this was the product of their "fears"? Or were they merely projecting?

Since you do not introspect, and we are talking degrees here, you think that only your reaction to violence is real and that no other response is possible. You fail to recognize that people who kill others and here innocent people for the purpose of terror are totally insane and have lost all claim to the continuance of their own life. This is a fact that any sane person can see and guilt free one simply respond with their death. You don't have to demonize them and millions of their kin or jack yourself up in some psychotic killing rage. You simply kill them wherever and however you can if it's what it will take to stop them. When the insane try to kill the innocent and the only way to stop them is death, you simply act. If there is another way to stop them you use that. Revenge and other such madness is what motivates them. If it motivates you, you are identical to them. There is only one principle in action here and that is to stop the death of innocent people, by killing if it's the only way which is seldom is.

 

[imported_dna]

Finally you express some opinion -- and one that I can agree with. The West needs to be more proactive and firm in protecting its cultural achievements, and let go of this insidious political correctness.

And for the record: I never demonized anyone, and saying that some of them are doing it as revenge is a bit of stretch.

 

[Exterous]

I think a big part of the problem here is that we, as a people, are trying to get a hold on the issue. While I think a large part of the world has learned to deal with flag burnings and general chanting "Death to so and so", I think most of the world can't understand or see the motivation behind the hate. The really bad part is that the world has gotten too small for this hatred to be easily ignored. It doesn't take an entire national ideology to destroy what 'you' believe in - it only takes a small group. Suddenly even one person with access to a bomb can kill you simply becuase of where you choose to live. Even worse, these people have become organized and already shown their ability to strike, without personal regard for life, at ANYONE - innocent or guilty - if they see a distinction. This group claims to be a part of a religion, but where do you find them within the religion. With the inability to locate them within a mass we become unsure what to do. Sure it may not be all of them but how can we tell? And how can we tell which ones are the fanatics? Your anger and protection from cannot be aimed at that small/medium/large group so the entire group gets included. Without another recourse people react against the group. Is it right? No. Is there another recourse? I would say Not for alot of people. Its this fear that motivates 'us' to act. How do you deal with someone ready to blow you up and has no regard for life? Killing them is one option. Is it the only workable option? We have no proof that another one WILL work. We do know that the death of the fanatic will stop him. If he becomes a martyr we can kill the ones that follow. It is a bloody, horrible solution but one that comes with a very precievable resolution- The dead cannot kill you with a gun or actively blow you up. I belive in alot of people's minds that another solution (at the moment) cannot be 'proved' to be as effective.

Past issues do not help - the rioting, fire bombing and DEATHS caused by a CARTOON only serves to inflame both sides. The extremes on both sides are polarizing and unless cooler heads prevail the only option in the extreme views will be "Kill them before they kill me." and that will not be a pretty world. Eventually people will be pressed to the extremes and unless an alternative is provided, the world will react with deadly measures

 

[piasabird]

The Romans thought that a man willing to die for what he believed to be the most dangerous kind of enemy.

Some people kill for power.
Some poeple kill for greed.
Some people kill for revenge.

However, when you are willing to kill for what you believe, then you are a very dangerous person. You can not reason with a person who is willing to kill for what they believe and no law you can pass can make them believe something differently. So if you indoctrinate a group of people into believing the infedels need to have their heads cut off, then it is hard to fight something like this. It is akin to brainwashing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Exterous
I think a big part of the problem here is that we, as a people, are trying to get a hold on the issue. While I think a large part of the world has learned to deal with flag burnings and general chanting "Death to so and so", I think most of the world can't understand or see the motivation behind the hate. The really bad part is that the world has gotten too small for this hatred to be easily ignored. It doesn't take an entire national ideology to destroy what 'you' believe in - it only takes a small group. Suddenly even one person with access to a bomb can kill you simply becuase of where you choose to live. Even worse, these people have become organized and already shown their ability to strike, without personal regard for life, at ANYONE - innocent or guilty - if they see a distinction. This group claims to be a part of a religion, but where do you find them within the religion. With the inability to locate them within a mass we become unsure what to do. Sure it may not be all of them but how can we tell? And how can we tell which ones are the fanatics? Your anger and protection from cannot be aimed at that small/medium/large group so the entire group gets included. Without another recourse people react against the group. Is it right? No. Is there another recourse? I would say Not for alot of people. Its this fear that motivates 'us' to act. How do you deal with someone ready to blow you up and has no regard for life? Killing them is one option. Is it the only workable option? We have no proof that another one WILL work. We do know that the death of the fanatic will stop him. If he becomes a martyr we can kill the ones that follow. It is a bloody, horrible solution but one that comes with a very precievable resolution- The dead cannot kill you with a gun or actively blow you up. I belive in alot of people's minds that another solution (at the moment) cannot be 'proved' to be as effective.

Past issues do not help - the rioting, fire bombing and DEATHS caused by a CARTOON only serves to inflame both sides. The extremes on both sides are polarizing and unless cooler heads prevail the only option in the extreme views will be "Kill them before they kill me." and that will not be a pretty world. Eventually people will be pressed to the extremes and unless an alternative is provided, the world will react with deadly measures

This, my dear Sir, is why only real introspection can save us. We are all the same and life loves life. The battle for human survival is not a war out there. It must become a war against our own personal madness and that war can only be waged by information and real understanding of the self. Man will either acknowledge that he was made sick as a child and work to cure it or kill the world to get even.

 

[TravisT]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
2 problems with that movie. First, no reputable director would have an endorsement from Michael Medved as his most prominent one.

Second, the whole comparison of todays radical Islamists and the Nazis is a joke. The idea that a segment of the planet that is largely impoverished, dependent on a single natural resource, and consumed by racial, social, and ethnic tensions is as large (or larger!?!!) a threat to the world as a power that controlled Europe with millions and millions of soldiers, tens of thousands of tanks, airplanes, and the like... is a stupid idea.

Yeah, they indoctrinate their kids and that's bad. Yeah they blow up things and that's bad. In order to fight them effectively we need clarity of vision as to what they really are... and world dominating nazis they ain't.

While I agree with your statement, how do we change the beliefs of a radical muslim? Keep in mind, many posters here in A&N discuss issues until they are blue in the face and no beliefs are changed... these radical muslims aren't even willing to sit down and have a reasonable discussion. And even if they were, they are so set on their belief that chances are they wouldn't change their opinion and would continue to doctrinate their children.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: TravisT

Originally posted by: eskimospy
2 problems with that movie. First, no reputable director would have an endorsement from Michael Medved as his most prominent one.

Second, the whole comparison of todays radical Islamists and the Nazis is a joke. The idea that a segment of the planet that is largely impoverished, dependent on a single natural resource, and consumed by racial, social, and ethnic tensions is as large (or larger!?!!) a threat to the world as a power that controlled Europe with millions and millions of soldiers, tens of thousands of tanks, airplanes, and the like... is a stupid idea.

Yeah, they indoctrinate their kids and that's bad. Yeah they blow up things and that's bad. In order to fight them effectively we need clarity of vision as to what they really are... and world dominating nazis they ain't.

While I agree with your statement, how do we change the beliefs of a radical muslim? Keep in mind, many posters here in A&N discuss issues until they are blue in the face and no beliefs are changed... these radical muslims aren't even willing to sit down and have a reasonable discussion. And even if they were, they are so set on their belief that chances are they wouldn't change their opinion and would continue to doctrinate their children.

No no no, you don't look out there for the answer. The question for you is how do you change. See, nobody wants to see that the only thing you can change is yourself. The war begins and ends there. Sweep your own front porch. Hehe, but then again, I can't expect you to see.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
No no no, you don't look out there for the answer. The question for you is how do you change. See, nobody wants to see that the only thing you can change is yourself. The war begins and ends there. Sweep your own front porch.

There you go with the introspection again.....
I wonder how those people stuck in the twin towers could've changed themselves to prevent the events of that day.

Hehe, but then again, I can't expect you to see.

You sound mighty pompous -- yet again...

 

[Moonbeam]

No no, I have to sweep my porch, not worry about whether he will see he needs to sweep his. That is what I mean by in not having expectations. I make no judgment about his capacity to see.

Introspection doesn't do much good for the dead. Introspection comes into play in deciding what us survivors should do.

 

[magomago]

What I'm more concerned about is this application of the minority extremists who take action on the rest of us Muslims - during an interfaith discussion one imam put it in a good way [paraphrased]:
When I speak with people and I tell them I am Muslim the first thing they ask me is: Am I with Hamas? Do I support Hizbollah? They immediately label me with a group of people that I have never met or spoken with
To assosicate the average Muslim with these extremists elements is a dangerous idea.

And Ironic the movie is called "obsession" when it seems like we are the ones obsessing about these extremists more than anything