Oblivion - so, I've been wandering around for three real days now...

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

it's a good system, but I _hate_ the implimentation of it, as do most people. I aslo hate the scaling of monsters. As you get stronger, with better weapons and armour, your enemies get the same stuff! Automatically! It takes away all sense of progression.

no . . . as you scale up only a FEW of the monsters scale with you. Finally, you [should] get WISER and better weapons, so you always have the advantage over scaling with them. The sense of progression is there.

I'm pretty sure almost everything scales to some extent. Wolves for example scale up to like level 5 or 6, but after that the chance of meeting a wolf compared to, say, a bear are greatly reduced - still a form of scaling.

It's not just about meeting weak enemies either, it's about strong ones. At the beginning of the game, you should be afraid of your surroundings, you should be a weakling compared to most of the monsters. Instead you can enter almost any cave or ruin without worrying about encountering a daedra round the next corner, it's all level 1/2 imps and ghosts. Or what if I want to go find a strong monster, try sneak past him, grab the valuable loot and run for my life... can't happen.

It would be OK for a more linear game or an 'action RPG', but this is supposed to be a pure RPG, the sequal to Morrowind.

I think Bethesada has dumbed down the gameplay in order to sell to a lower age group, mostly xbox 360 players, but it's still a great game. That fact that it's even possible to mod it so extensively is a huge plus for me.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: apoppin

it's a good system, but I _hate_ the implimentation of it, as do most people. I aslo hate the scaling of monsters. As you get stronger, with better weapons and armour, your enemies get the same stuff! Automatically! It takes away all sense of progression.

no . . . as you scale up only a FEW of the monsters scale with you. Finally, you [should] get WISER and better weapons, so you always have the advantage over scaling with them. The sense of progression is there.

I'm pretty sure almost everything scales to some extent. Wolves for example scale up to like level 5 or 6, but after that the chance of meeting a wolf compared to, say, a bear are greatly reduced - still a form of scaling.

It's not just about meeting weak enemies either, it's about strong ones. At the beginning of the game, you should be afraid of your surroundings, you should be a weakling compared to most of the monsters. Instead you can enter almost any cave or ruin without worrying about encountering a daedra round the next corner, it's all level 1/2 imps and ghosts. Or what if I want to go find a strong monster, try sneak past him, grab the valuable loot and run for my life... can't happen.

It would be OK for a more linear game or an 'action RPG', but this is supposed to be a pure RPG, the sequal to Morrowind.

I think Bethesada has dumbed down the gameplay in order to sell to a lower age group, mostly xbox 360 players, but it's still a great game. That fact that it's even possible to mod it so extensively is a huge plus for me.

I guess I just suck at these RPGs; those imps kicked my ass completely in the beginning! In fact, if not for a "bug" in the game, I'd have not become The Hero of Kvatch. That bug being that allies that stay behind to guard a room will fight enemies if you bring them with you when you run back from rooms up ahead.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: apoppin

it's a good system, but I _hate_ the implimentation of it, as do most people. I aslo hate the scaling of monsters. As you get stronger, with better weapons and armour, your enemies get the same stuff! Automatically! It takes away all sense of progression.

no . . . as you scale up only a FEW of the monsters scale with you. Finally, you [should] get WISER and better weapons, so you always have the advantage over scaling with them. The sense of progression is there.

I'm pretty sure almost everything scales to some extent. Wolves for example scale up to like level 5 or 6, but after that the chance of meeting a wolf compared to, say, a bear are greatly reduced - still a form of scaling.

It's not just about meeting weak enemies either, it's about strong ones. At the beginning of the game, you should be afraid of your surroundings, you should be a weakling compared to most of the monsters. Instead you can enter almost any cave or ruin without worrying about encountering a daedra round the next corner, it's all level 1/2 imps and ghosts. Or what if I want to go find a strong monster, try sneak past him, grab the valuable loot and run for my life... can't happen.

It would be OK for a more linear game or an 'action RPG', but this is supposed to be a pure RPG, the sequal to Morrowind.

I think Bethesada has dumbed down the gameplay in order to sell to a lower age group, mostly xbox 360 players, but it's still a great game. That fact that it's even possible to mod it so extensively is a huge plus for me.

again, no . . . the wolf is still just as common at higher levels and one hit from a Master's Blade sends it FLYing.

Comparatively FEW enemies level with you . . . if you need i can look it up for you.

and you NEGLECT the fact that your WEAPONS get stronger and with more enchantments. If we had it "your way" it would be a challengeless walkthru at the highest levels as you attained the level of "god". . . .
. . . as it is, Maxx still has a 'challenge' at level 92

and i think you must have leveled your Major Skills too soon. . . if you are "smart", you work on your MINOR skills first . . . that way you are ALWAYS stronger than your enemies.

and Oblivion is not "Pure" RPG . . . even morrowind wasn't.

. . . and clearly everything screams "console"

still a great game

and don't give up MichaelD . . . go the the Pinned FAQQat the OB forums.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: apoppin
again, no . . . the wolf is still just as common at higher levels and one hit from a Master's Blade sends it FLYing.

I have the construction set open right now, the original oblivion.esm loaded as the active file, and the worldspace set to 'Tamriel' so it includes all cells.

If I scroll down on the left to 'AnvilExteriorAreaA' (or any other outdoor area) I can see levelled lists with names such as 'LL1WildernessPlains'. Editing the base of this object shows a table of creature names corresponding with level numbers - this particular list reads as follows:

Level 1, count 1, LLDeer100
Level 1, count 1, CreatureWolf
Level 6, count 1, CreatureWolfTimber
Level 7, count 1, CreatureBoar
Level 12, count 1, CreatureMountainLion

When you reach level 7, the chance of meeting a boar is introduced, therefore the chance of meeting a wolf is decreased, and it is less common at higher levels.

Comparatively FEW enemies level with you . . . if you need i can look it up for you.

Where can I meet a strong monster in the wild at level 1?

and you NEGLECT the fact that your WEAPONS get stronger and with more enchantments.

Your enemies' kit levels too. Haven't you noticed bandits and marauders slowly and mysteriously acquiring awesome armour and swords?

If we had it "your way" it would be a challengeless walkthru at the highest levels as you attained the level of "god". . . .
. . . as it is, Maxx still has a 'challenge' at level 92

As you got stronger you would attempt harder and more profitable quests, ones which would have been beyond you at lower levels, and so you could still be challenged. It's not just my way either, there are lots of people on elderscrolls forum and elsewhere dedicating their time to fixing/changing this aspect of the game. I know some people are completely happy with it in it's original state, but many 'RPG fans' would have preferred a more traditional system - I'm just glad Betesda lets us make those changes ourselves.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: apoppin
again, no . . . the wolf is still just as common at higher levels and one hit from a Master's Blade sends it FLYing.

I have the construction set open right now, the original oblivion.esm loaded as the active file, and the worldspace set to 'Tamriel' so it includes all cells.

If I scroll down on the left to 'AnvilExteriorAreaA' (or any other outdoor area) I can see levelled lists with names such as 'LL1WildernessPlains'. Editing the base of this object shows a table of creature names corresponding with level numbers - this particular list reads as follows:

Level 1, count 1, LLDeer100
Level 1, count 1, CreatureWolf
Level 6, count 1, CreatureWolfTimber
Level 7, count 1, CreatureBoar
Level 12, count 1, CreatureMountainLion

When you reach level 7, the chance of meeting a boar is introduced, therefore the chance of meeting a wolf is decreased, and it is less common at higher levels.

Comparatively FEW enemies level with you . . . if you need i can look it up for you.

Where can I meet a strong monster in the wild at level 1?

and you NEGLECT the fact that your WEAPONS get stronger and with more enchantments.

Your enemies' kit levels too. Haven't you noticed bandits and marauders slowly and mysteriously acquiring awesome armour and swords?

If we had it "your way" it would be a challengeless walkthru at the highest levels as you attained the level of "god". . . .
. . . as it is, Maxx still has a 'challenge' at level 92

As you got stronger you would attempt harder and more profitable quests, ones which would have been beyond you at lower levels, and so you could still be challenged. It's not just my way either, there are lots of people on elderscrolls forum and elsewhere dedicating their time to fixing/changing this aspect of the game. I know some people are completely happy with it in it's original state, but many 'RPG fans' would have preferred a more traditional system - I'm just glad Betesda lets us make those changes ourselves.

The scaling system is what dampened the glory of Oblivion for me, I believe. The feeling of becoming more powerful is kind of ruined. However, it snot just level scaling that upsets me. There is also item scaling.

I just remember in exploring every Ancestral tomb or random cave in Morrowind because of the chance something may be hidden away. Sadly, this never happens in Oblivion really.

Still a good game, but I believe it could have been better. I hope someone makesa complete overhaul for a Morrowind version of Oblivion.

 

[MichaelD]

I've also noticed that you really don't find any cool stuff in the caves/underground places.

I found this one place that the last room was guarded by some chick in glowing black armor. She was carrying a purple-glowing sword. She kept saying "it hungers for souls." I tried fighting her...it was a quick battle. I loaded my last save and looked around her room there. Nothing of value, except the chest I couldn't open, and even if I could, she'd kill me in two seconds. What's the point of that place, anyway?

 

[ROTC1983]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
I've also noticed that you really don't find any cool stuff in the caves/underground places.

I found this one place that the last room was guarded by some chick in glowing black armor. She was carrying a purple-glowing sword. She kept saying "it hungers for souls." I tried fighting her...it was a quick battle. I loaded my last save and looked around her room there. Nothing of value, except the chest I couldn't open, and even if I could, she'd kill me in two seconds. What's the point of that place, anyway?

Where is that? I haven't seen that area yet

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

I have it but I haven't loaded it. I have a really really hard time playing anything but multiplayer games.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
I've also noticed that you really don't find any cool stuff in the caves/underground places.

I found this one place that the last room was guarded by some chick in glowing black armor. She was carrying a purple-glowing sword. She kept saying "it hungers for souls." I tried fighting her...it was a quick battle. I loaded my last save and looked around her room there. Nothing of value, except the chest I couldn't open, and even if I could, she'd kill me in two seconds. What's the point of that place, anyway?

ahh . . you met UMBRA early!
:Q

piece of cake to kill - even at your level . . . try luring her OUT of the cave and let the guards kill her [i.e. RUN to a city]. You will get a weightless sword that is VERY powerful for your level.

of course, if you didn't kill her, you get to meet her later . . . it is a shrine QUEST.

and to the people that are diasppointed with the "items" - they DO level with you . . . in the CS there are at least 3 or 4 identical pieces of armour or weapons with progressivly higher stats.

And have you guys "found" the Hatred's Heart and Soul? Verrrrry Powerful and NOT at all easy to find {in a wildernes Ob plane}.

AND to you guys that are disappointed that Oblivion is NOT like morrowind . . . PLAY morrowind . . . or mod the hell outta Oblivion.
:thumbsdown:

i still don't see what you are complaining about . . . if you want to be 'godlike' at higher levels simply get Chameleon . . . or Wabbajack - an UNSTOPPABLE weapon on tough enemies. Both are 'cheats' [and i was the first to post both as cheats and and explained the 'uses' of 'jacking your enemies]

You DON'T meet a High-level monster at Level One or you'd give up and put the game away.

i'd also tend to say that you meet the SAME NUMBER OF WOLVES - at level 1 as level 92 . . . you get MORE enemies at one time as you get stronger . . . often, Maxx will meet a wolf AND a lion [and sometimes also a Bear] simultaneously . . . whereas before he only had to deal with wolfie.

in Oblivion planes, at Level 92, Maxx often faces 4-5 Daedra at a time . . . who summon more enemies. You DO get challenged at the Highest levels [keep playing, you'll see]

i don't think a lot of you really understand Oblivion's mechanics . . . even a LOT of the guys on the OB forums including those "into" the CS.

and there is NO pleasing everyone

FACT

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Dumac
I hope someone makesa complete overhaul for a Morrowind version of Oblivion.

Not exactly a Morrowind version, but 'Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul' is what you're looking for. Mostly a scaling/levelling mod, it alters all the levelled lists for creatures and items to make them more random and less level based. In some cases completely static or random. It also adds many new items, monsters, quests, fixes bugs, etc, etc.

Release 1.3 is out soon (now? I dunno, but don't be fooled by the fake thread on elderscrolls forum claiming release) so wait for that one - it's gonna be a huge jump from 1.23.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Dumac
I hope someone makesa complete overhaul for a Morrowind version of Oblivion.

Not exactly a Morrowind version, but 'Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul' is what you're looking for. Mostly a scaling/levelling mod, it alters all the levelled lists for creatures and items to make them more random and less level based. In some cases completely static or random. It also adds many new items, monsters, quests, fixes bugs, etc, etc.

Release 1.3 is out soon (now? I dunno, but don't be fooled by the fake thread on elderscrolls forum claiming release) so wait for that one - it's gonna be a huge jump from 1.23.

obviously Obscuro is a Morrowind fan . . . it makes Oblivion more like MW. . . . i DUMPED it really QUICK and went back to 'oblivion' . . . it is DIFFERENT . . . [arguably] NOT better.

but TRY it if you love MW.

also i suggest "natural environments" . . . clears up the 'cloudy' water and makes it "look better' . . . without killing your gfx card.

. . . oh yeah, there is an UNoficial 'patch' which clears up some quest problems . . .seems ok . . . HOWever, i didn't play with ANY mods or Cheats for 1016 hours - 'till all maxx' abilities maxed out . . . now "anything goes"

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: apoppin
You DON'T meet a High-level monster at Level One or you'd give up and put the game away.

Oh no I wouldn't!

Take the sand worm from FFVII as an example (completely different game type I know but stay with me) - you meet it first at low levels, just after midgar, and it can kill any of your characters in 1 hit. It's impossibly powerful and you're forced to get a chocobo and outrun it or die. Then you see Sepheroth has killed it and stuck it on a pole - wow, you say, that guy is teh shizzle! We can never beat him!

But return to the area later, say at level 20, it's a different story. Now the worm is a good challenge, but not impossible, and worth the risk for the experience points. That's a sense of progression.

I don't mean to complain BTW, this is one of my favorite games of all time, I just think it's even better with mods.

also i suggest "natural environments" . . . clears up the 'cloudy' water and makes it "look better' . . . without killing your gfx card.

:thumbsup:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: apoppin
You DON'T meet a High-level monster at Level One or you'd give up and put the game away.

Oh no I wouldn't!

Take the sand worm from FFVII as an example (completely different game type I know but stay with me) - you meet it first at low levels, just after midgar, and it can kill any of your characters in 1 hit. It's impossibly powerful and you're forced to get a chocobo and outrun it or die. Then you see Sepheroth has killed it and stuck it on a pole - wow, you say, that guy is teh shizzle! We can never beat him!

But return to the area later, say at level 20, it's a different story. Now the worm is a good challenge, but not impossible, and worth the risk for the experience points. That's a sense of progression.

I don't mean to complain BTW, this is one of my favorite games of all time, I just think it's even better with mods.

also i suggest "natural environments" . . . clears up the 'cloudy' water and makes it "look better' . . . without killing your gfx card.

:thumbsup:

Well, you can meet Umbra at Level one [or two] and - best of all - if you are clever, you can kill her and get her very powerful weapon. . . . if not, you meet her again at level 15 or so and it's a good battle . . . awesome progression!

You can do the same things with the other Quests - to get the HonorBladeofChorril [and the Reflect Damage Shield] . . .

What BUGS me is that the "world' doesn't react to your accomplishemnts . .. You "Save the world" . . . are FAMOUS . . . and the next minute a lowly Guard tells you to "move along". . . . or a Battlemage or mage Scholar doesn't recognize you as the Archmage . . . it is UNreal and kills immersion.

i love it too. . . and NO game is perfect. . . . and i am LOVING the mods.

However . . . My SUGGESTION is NOT to play the mods till you tire of the 'vanilla' game.

 

[MichaelD]

So how do I kill her? She's completely covered in armor. I hit her with an arrow while sneaking for 6x damage. She just ran upstairs and cut my head off.

*edit*

Ah, I read appopin's post above. I will try that. Now I just have to remember where to find the bitch. I just finished getting those twin brothers back to their house. The ogres are about 10x easier to kill than the imps. They aren't as fast.

I've been completing all the side quests. Very interesting. What's got me really annoyed is trying to solve the mystery of the stolen painting in Castle Chorral. None of the named people want to talk to me. I'm not too good at the talking thing either (with the four areas, tell a joke, admire, coerce, boast) Then again, I haven't really read the instruction manual either.

 

[apoppin]

you didn't read my post . .

RUN . . . run fast OUT of the cave and make SURE she is following you [she will if you fire an occasional arrrow to 'encourage' her] . . . run to the nearest city and let the GUARDs kill her . . . loot her body for her armour and sword.

simple and elegant

[well, simple . . . ]

you can thank me later when you get her sword

it won't UNbalance your game . . . but it will make it easier.
:thumbsup:

and GO to the OB forums to the Pinned FAQ . . . you will save tons of time and get a better 'feel' for the game

EDIT: i see you DID read my last post

2nd edit: Canvas the Castle is HARD . . . you really need to be a detective and piece the clues together . . . see the Pinned FAQ

the Quest for the Bros is cool . . . complete it and return the sword to the castle after you are tired of it [around level 15 or so]

 

[MichaelD]

Thanks, apoppin! :beer:

What's the URL for "OB forums?"

 

[apoppin]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/

or just click on the Game's menu "ElderScrolls.com" and it will take you there automatically

you want 'cheats, hints and spoilers'

and say 'hi' . . . i use the same username - everywhere.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: apoppin
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/

or just click on the Game's menu "ElderScrolls.com" and it will take you there automatically

you want 'cheats, hints and spoilers'

and say 'hi' . . . i use the same username - everywhere.

Excellent. Thanks!

 

[apoppin]

you're welcome

i just noticed there are a LOT of ways to defeat Umbra:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tips#Umbra_at_level_one

NOT in the Wiki is Sneaking up and JUMPing up on a broken pillar next to Umbra. You are just out of her reach and can feel free to attack her with arrows.

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: Atheus
(Also @apoppin)
I'm pretty sure almost everything scales to some extent. Wolves for example scale up to like level 5 or 6, but after that the chance of meeting a wolf compared to, say, a bear are greatly reduced - still a form of scaling.

It's not just reduced - it's eventually eliminated. It's been a few months since I played and modded, but there's a parameter somewhere that sets the max number of levels between you and enemies (similarly between you and discovered loot). So monsters and loot you find early in the game are eventually "obsoleted".

It's not just about meeting weak enemies either, it's about strong ones. At the beginning of the game, you should be afraid of your surroundings, you should be a weakling compared to most of the monsters. Instead you can enter almost any cave or ruin without worrying about encountering a daedra round the next corner, it's all level 1/2 imps and ghosts. Or what if I want to go find a strong monster, try sneak past him, grab the valuable loot and run for my life... can't happen.

It would be OK for a more linear game or an 'action RPG', but this is supposed to be a pure RPG, the sequal to Morrowind.

But I disagree entirely with your conclusions. The whole point of Elder Scrolls games is that you're basically free to wander the world in whatever sequence you please. If there were "zones" like MMORPG's then you would be funneled into certain areas and have to leave others for later. That's not what the devs were trying for. If you don't personally enjoy that model, I can understand that, and that's why there are plenty of mods out there. But it's not fair to say that the devs "dumbed things down," "sold out," or otherwise betrayed their ideals - the vision of Elder Scrolls games is exactly the kind of freedom to choose your path that the system provides.

And I've never understood what kind of rose-colored glasses people are wearing these days when they look back on Morrowind. Apart from one or two rare bosses, that game was preposterously easy after the first few hours of gameplay. You had to consciously hold yourself back from abusing gameplay elements that were sitting right in front of you (outrageous enchantments, glass armor sitting unguarded on a shelf, the creeper and the mudcrab to name a few). All the people talking about the "good old days" of Morrowind now are exactly the same ones who were beating their breasts, tearing their hair out, and calling the developers every kind of evil name when Morrowind was first released. You just can't please some people...

 

[Vampirrella]

The most intresting line of quests in the game were the dark brotherhood ones by far, i couldnt wait to get my next "kill this guy" mission, one right after another.. sadly it ended too soon!

 

[MichaelD]

I've yet to join any of the guilds. I dont' want to commit myself yet to be forced to complete quests. Currently, I'm just wandering around completing the ones I want to. Killing Umbra is Job #1 right now. :evil: Last I left the game, I fast traveled to her site (forget the name...) and was greeted by some robber with a bow (easy to kill) and this evil looking goat-thing (not easy to kill...I got killed :| ) Glad I save often.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
I've taken armor off dead allies.

Sounds like you know exactly what you're doing .

Anyhow, just make sure you try some guild quests (dark brotherhood is a favorite, as is the thief and fighter guilds) before you get bored of the game. Their quality is significantly higher than other quests including even the main quest.

Do not get too caught up in closing portals as they are overwhelmingly mundane.

 

[lagvoid]

gotta check this out now that I have some free time.

 

[LanceM]

Just because you join a guild, it doesn't mean that you have to complete anything. You can have months between guild quests if you so choose. It all stays stored in your quest log.