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Objective Truth

We don't yet have a complete enough understanding of our universe to really say, but things like pi are probably objectively true. Most things are just ad hoc occurrences, though, like politics and thumbs.

At least, I think that is a valid response. I'm not certain what your question is, objectively. We are talking about BS like Plato's Forms, right?
 
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Pray To Jesus said:
where objective means "independent of the knower and his consciousness"

do you believe in objective truth?
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Yes I do. I believe the universe is going to do what it will despite what we think. It's properties are there to be discovered. It has been said that some of the most profound discoveries happen not when the discoverer exclaims "Eureka! I've found it" but rather "Hmmm....that's odd.." In other words we often stumble on to a discovery purely by accident. Sometimes something we weren't even looking for. This shows that in those cases the discoverer did not cause or affect the discovery to be made but came upon it unknowing of it's existence.

Having said that, the latest discovery in physics that made headlines, the discovery of the Higgs Boson was not by accident. It had been theorized to exist for decades and was finally confirmed recently.

The universe is made up mostly of dark matter and dark energy. The visible portion of the universe is only about 4-5%. It seems we are rather insignificant as far as the universe is concerned. It's a humbling perspective, much like the picture of the tiny Earth photographed from far away and Carl Sagan's famous Pale Blue Dot quote.

Below is a lecture by Lawrence Krauss on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUH77mYBUtM

Just don't read the youtube comments as most of them (on both sides of their argument) seem mentally unbalanced. I call it their argument because it's not one I'd want to be associated with.
 
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sandorski said:
Depends on how you define "truth".
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I took his question to mean is there some truth beyond man's own perception of reality and in my opinion the answer is yes there is. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it does still make a noise. If no one bothers to discover Higgs Bosons they will still exist. we do not make reality what it is. It is what it is whether we are around to observe it or not.

Counterpoint: Our observations can affect the outcome of an experiment, but this is not affecting a universal truth, just our observation of it.
 
ADDAvenger said:
We don't yet have a complete enough understanding of our universe to really say, but things like pi are probably objectively true. Most things are just ad hoc occurrences, though, like politics and thumbs.
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Example of false subjective truth thought process.

Here, ADDAvenger uses the subjective truth claim that we can't really say what objective truth is. However, in order to make that claim, he have to use the objective truth claim of "we don't yet have a complete understanding of our universe."

His statement doesn't make sense if you take its premise at face value.
 
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Perception is truth until it isn't. I perceive my happy, tranquil world until I get hit by the train. Situational awareness is important. When Truth and truth collide, truth wins.

It is the essence of the Enlightenment that we recognize the world as it is rather than attempt to warp and suppress observation to fit our Truths.
 
ADDAvenger said:
We don't yet have a complete enough understanding of our universe to really say, but things like pi are probably objectively true. Most things are just ad hoc occurrences, though, like politics and thumbs.

At least, I think that is a valid response. I'm not certain what your question is, objectively. We are talking about BS like Plato's Forms, right?
Click to expand...

pi is a product of our models of understanding the universe. I tend to think of the universe as this extremely complex n-dimensional entity (where n is LARGE), and our understanding is some m-dimensional cross section of it (m << n) and things like pi exist in this cross section and some projection of the universe on it only. because the cross section itself can have structure, it can introduce its own artifacts that seem like truth.

/random bs
 
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There is no objective truth - everything we know is the product of our observations; hence, everything is subjective.

Also, I don't believe in Jesus.
 
Xecuter said:
There is no objective truth - everything we know is the product of our observations; hence, everything is subjective.

Also, I don't believe in Jesus.
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Bolded is what is known as universal subjectivism.

Universal subjectivism claims that all truth is subjective and is dependent on the knower. It's self-contradictory because the subjectivist claims that truth really, objectively, is subjective.

If one were to believe in universal subjectivism, then one would have to doubt whether the truth of "everything is subjective" is in and of itself subjective, a personal opinion or feeling in the mind of the subjectivist. Thus, they would not be claiming that the subjectivist theory was really correct and the objective truth theory incorrect.

In that case, they are not disagreeing with objective truth theory at all. They are actually agreeing with their opponent.
 
Cerpin Taxt said:
2.) How do we know that 2+2=4 is true?
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Ermergeeerd

Take 2 objects and put them in one hand. Take another 2 objects and put them in the other hand. Now put them all in one hand. How many objects are in your hand now? If you say zero, you're right. 2+2=0. Now go write a paper for peer review and submit it to your local landfill.
 
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