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Obama's views on religion

Martin

Lifer
Taken from a speech of his:
Given the increasing diversity of America?s population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.

And even if we did have only Christians within our borders, who?s Christianity would we teach in the schools? James Dobson?s, or Al Sharpton?s? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Levitacus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount ? a passage so radical that it?s doubtful that our Defense Department would survive its application?

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God?s will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

This may be difficult for those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of the possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It insists on the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God?s edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one?s life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime; to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing.

http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1297



I imagine that should he ever get as far as candidacy, the religious right will go absolutely insane over reasonable views like this.
 
Originally posted by: Martin

I imagine that should he ever get as far as candidacy, the religious right will go absolutely insane over reasonable views like this.

They're the biggest hypocrites so I never take them seriously. I mean, come on, looking at them with that conviction face is funny enough. Couple that with the garbage coming out of their mouth and it's enough to get a chuckle or two out before you change the channel or it'll get nauseating.
 
Well said, yes. But IMO, religion has nothing to do with what I see as our nation's biggest problems.

I'm sorry, but abortion, gay marriage, and creationism/evolution all need to be taken back to the end of the line.

Our education system needs work, bigtime. Same for healthcare. And on the same stage, foreign policy and fixing the mess in Iraq.

We need to end the "war on terror," and launch a "war on Al Qaeda."

We need to also end our "war on drugs," and find better ways of fixing our cities' crack and meth problems.
 
Originally posted by: bamacre
Well said, yes. But IMO, religion has nothing to do with what I see as our nation's biggest problems.

I'm sorry, but abortion, gay marriage, and creationism/evolution all need to be taken back to the end of the line.

Our education system needs work, bigtime. Same for healthcare. And on the same stage, foreign policy and fixing the mess in Iraq.

We need to end the "war on terror," and launch a "war on Al Qaeda."

We need to also end our "war on drugs," and find better ways of fixing our cities' crack and meth problems.

Yeah, we need to do a lot of things. But unfortunately religion got us in this mess. We do need to focus on things other then religion. But, not in this lifetime. I think religion plays a big part on who gets in. Since most people now days well errr, 60-70% of the voters will vote for their religion rather then how capable or smart someone is. Look where this has gotten us? I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

As for a candidate that is against religion or giving tons of cash towards the movement.... Well, you can almost guarantee that candidate has sealed his fate in winning....

 
Originally posted by: Martin
I imagine that should he ever get as far as candidacy, the religious right will go absolutely insane over reasonable views like this.
He's right on the money, both in his view that religion itself should not be legislated and for why so many people struggle to accept that it should not be legislated. The bottom line is that, like he said, the reason for why we pass a law must be accessible to everyone, not only those who subscribe to your book of choice. Unfortunately, it's easier to do the opposite, so many people will continue to do exactly what they've been doing.
 
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: bamacre
Well said, yes. But IMO, religion has nothing to do with what I see as our nation's biggest problems.

I'm sorry, but abortion, gay marriage, and creationism/evolution all need to be taken back to the end of the line.

Our education system needs work, bigtime. Same for healthcare. And on the same stage, foreign policy and fixing the mess in Iraq.

We need to end the "war on terror," and launch a "war on Al Qaeda."

We need to also end our "war on drugs," and find better ways of fixing our cities' crack and meth problems.

Yeah, we need to do a lot of things. But unfortunately religion got us in this mess. We do need to focus on things other then religion. But, not in this lifetime. I think religion plays a big part on who gets in. Since most people now days well errr, 60-70% of the voters will vote for their religion rather then how capable or smart someone is. Look where this has gotten us? I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

As for a candidate that is against religion or giving tons of cash towards the movement.... Well, you can almost guarantee that candidate has sealed his fate in winning....

No, I'd say PNAC got us in this mess. Assuming you mean Iraq.

Otherwise, if you mean "mess," as in the general state of our nation, I still do not understand how you can blame "religion" in such a blanket statement. Healthcare and education have been big problems, before even the Religious Right started voting.
 
okay now this attracts me 10000x more. I'm willling to listen more, assuming he discusses his views more rather than keep quiet.

Even though I do believe in God, there is no reason to force or legislate for or against religion at all. Our constitution may mention a creator but it doesn't say whose creator~
 
I love it when he actually articulates his views. He hasn't touched on any major serious issues he needs to address as a presidential candidate, but then again, it is *terribly* early to be risking spiking yourself. Then again, everything he puts out is so well thought out and logical that it makes it difficult to cover everything just yet... Itching to see more.
 
There is a reason why this man was labeled a superstar of the Democratic party before he even became a senator. Say hello to the future president of the United States.

It will be a tough battle for him to win the Democratic nomination, but he should trounce anything the Republicans throw out there. The R's have pretty much lost 08', there is seemingly no way they can recover after Bush in such short time. And their current crop of candidates are lackluster and unappealing at best.
 
I think he would have a decent chance at making friends allover the world, seeing he isn't extremist and doesn't seem to be thinking he knows the ultimate truth. This could mean he can get more support from a lot of European countries and from a lot of moderate Muslims, as well as being able to give US citizens who aren't 'WASPs' more the feeling of them belonging in the US, which means that extremist groups are less likely to gain support.
 
I hope the guy becomes the next or the one after president of the U.S. and fixes the mess we call "U.S. vs. the rest" around the globe. Seriously.

Go OBAMA!
 
"We have no choice"

That's where he loses me. Obama has no more right to demand that one's persons moral sensibilities pass his litmus test than Bush has. In a Democracy people you don't like have input. For many religious its humanistic seculariism, for the non religious, it can be Dobson and his supporters. Well there are both in this society, and each side has the right to be represented with it's concerns. THEY DO NOT NEED TO MEET YOUR STANDARDS. Or mine for that matter. We all have a vote and a voice, and that alone says we have a choice. That's Democracy. Not "exclude them because we don't think they are moral/smart enough".

No, I do NOT have to pass Obama's or Bush's litmus test to have a concern and expect representation for my views. If they are unpopular, the legislative process can shoot it down. Don't dare tell me that if I believe something is wrong I can't even ask for it to be addressed.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
"We have no choice"

That's where he loses me. Obama has no more right to demand that one's persons moral sensibilities pass his litmus test than Bush has. In a Democracy people you don't like have input. For many religious its humanistic seculariism, for the non religious, it can be Dobson and his supporters. Well there are both in this society, and each side has the right to be represented with it's concerns. THEY DO NOT NEED TO MEET YOUR STANDARDS. Or mine for that matter. We all have a vote and a voice, and that alone says we have a choice. That's Democracy. Not "exclude them because we don't think they are moral/smart enough".

No, I do NOT have to pass Obama's or Bush's litmus test to have a concern and expect representation for my views. If they are unpopular, the legislative process can shoot it down. Don't dare tell me that if I believe something is wrong I can't even ask for it to be addressed.


The bolded sentence above is exactly what Obama is talking about. He's saying you are free to have your concerns, and expect representation for your views. He's also saying that the legislative process needs to evaluate EVERYONE'S beliefs, not just those of the christian majority (EDIT: as it seems they do more and more lately), and that any laws passed need to make sense for EVERYONE, not just the group of people whose religion dictates that it makes sense.



IMHO, it seems like, recently, Christians are enamored with the false belief that this country was founded by and for Christians only. They seem to think that since the Bible says that Christianity is the only true religion, that they should be allowed to force their beliefs on others (think: abortion/gay rights/etc..). Since Christians are in the majority in the US, this ends up happening more and more often, due to the democratic process. This leaves people who are not in the majority under-represented and therefore unable to effect desireable or prevent undesireable change.

Make no mistake about it, what is happening to non-christians today is no different than the persecution of minorities in the south in the 1960's, the only difference is that today they use smiles and feel-good legislation instead of burning crosses and lynch mobs.


At any rate, Obama hit it right on the head. He has a very level-headed viewpoint on how it should be.
 
While Obama has a nice point, there is one thing people always seem to forget.

This country is a democracy. Which means, the people elected represent the people putting them in office. If we have 90% Christian population, I'd expect the person in power to represent the Christian population and pass laws/legislation to support it. Granted we have seperation of church and state, but that just means that the state can't force a religion on you, or come out and say "We are a christian nation". In case Jews or Muslims come here in mass, they get represented and laws/legislation changes to support their views.

Isn't that Democracy?
As far as I'm concerned, politics has nothing to do with representation anymore.
 
Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
"We have no choice"

That's where he loses me. Obama has no more right to demand that one's persons moral sensibilities pass his litmus test than Bush has. In a Democracy people you don't like have input. For many religious its humanistic seculariism, for the non religious, it can be Dobson and his supporters. Well there are both in this society, and each side has the right to be represented with it's concerns. THEY DO NOT NEED TO MEET YOUR STANDARDS. Or mine for that matter. We all have a vote and a voice, and that alone says we have a choice. That's Democracy. Not "exclude them because we don't think they are moral/smart enough".

No, I do NOT have to pass Obama's or Bush's litmus test to have a concern and expect representation for my views. If they are unpopular, the legislative process can shoot it down. Don't dare tell me that if I believe something is wrong I can't even ask for it to be addressed.


The bolded sentence above is exactly what Obama is talking about. He's saying you are free to have your concerns, and expect representation for your views. He's also saying that the legislative process needs to evaluate EVERYONE'S beliefs, not just those of the christian majority, and that any laws passed need to make sense for EVERYONE, not just the group of people whose religion dictates that it makes sense.


You need to go up one level. If Obama said the HE couldn't support a particular position, the I would be fine with that. In fact in one place he does, and so far so good. Then he goe on to tell the millions of religions that they cannot have any influence in politics because they cannot meet the EVERYONE standard. They have to meet HIS standard of reasonability not before he would represent their views, but they have to to be represented at all. What piece of legislation will Obama endorse which passes the everyone test? Who is he to tell a group that believes late term abortion is murder they cannot have a voice because they don't pass his reasonableness standard? For that matter, what Rep should take the attitude that pro abortion people shouldn't have access to their Constitutional rights?

Let's say that Obama and the Dems want to pass legislation that would render anti gay marriage laws null and void. Will they not introduce such legislation because EVERYONE isn't on board? That won't stop them for a moment. They will define themselves as "everyone" for their purposes if that's needed. If Obama says "I" or "my party" or whatever group will resist religious influences, then good! That's not what he said. He told someone else that they may not participate unless they pass his standards. That's the rub. He is telling them that they cannot. They have no choice. Well they damn well do. So do the gays, the blacks and the religious, the athiestic, the KKK for that matter.

My problem isn't what Obama says he stands for and believes in. It's his statement of what others need do to meet his criteria before they may have a voice. Even now, I don't say that Obama can't say what he's saying, but I won't endorce the philosophy.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
You need to go up one level. If Obama said the HE couldn't support a particular position, the I would be fine with that. In fact in one place he does, and so far so good. Then he goe on to tell the millions of religions that they cannot have any influence in politics because they cannot meet the EVERYONE standard. They have to meet HIS standard of reasonability not before he would represent their views, but they have to to be represented at all. What piece of legislation will Obama endorse which passes the everyone test? Who is he to tell a group that believes late term abortion is murder they cannot have a voice because they don't pass his reasonableness standard? For that matter, what Rep should take the attitude that pro abortion people shouldn't have access to their Constitutional rights?

Let's say that Obama and the Dems want to pass legislation that would render anti gay marriage laws null and void. Will they not introduce such legislation because EVERYONE isn't on board? That won't stop them for a moment. They will define themselves as "everyone" for their purposes if that's needed. If Obama says "I" or "my party" or whatever group will resist religious influences, then good! That's not what he said. He told someone else that they may not participate unless they pass his standards. That's the rub. He is telling them that they cannot. They have no choice. Well they damn well do. So do the gays, the blacks and the religious, the athiestic, the KKK for that matter.

My problem isn't what Obama says he stands for and believes in. It's his statement of what others need do to meet his criteria before they may have a voice. Even now, I don't say that Obama can't say what he's saying, but I won't endorce the philosophy.
You raise a good point. I suppose if Obama had said 'these people SHOULD'... then I would agree with him. Instead, he says that 'democracy demands' these things.

Personally, I feel that if I am going to argue for a law, it should have some universalizability (made up words FTW), which to me means that it should be based on principles accessible to everyone, such as logic. To me, this is what the study of ethics is all about. By attempting to arrive at things that are 'right' and 'wrong' based solely on reason and not involving specific religious dogmas or doctrines, the results are applicable to everyone, regardless of whether they subscribe to your personal belief system. Your point is that not everyone chooses to set their moral standards in accord with this litmus test and who am I to tell them otherwise? I agree that these others should be able to lobby for change as they see fit, whether or not their opinion meets my standards. so, while I personally believe that responsible legislation (in some idealized sense, at least) should hold to this standard, I don't think that it should be some mandatory criterion for proposed legislation.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
You need to go up one level. If Obama said the HE couldn't support a particular position, the I would be fine with that. In fact in one place he does, and so far so good. Then he goe on to tell the millions of religions that they cannot have any influence in politics because they cannot meet the EVERYONE standard. They have to meet HIS standard of reasonability not before he would represent their views, but they have to to be represented at all. What piece of legislation will Obama endorse which passes the everyone test? Who is he to tell a group that believes late term abortion is murder they cannot have a voice because they don't pass his reasonableness standard? For that matter, what Rep should take the attitude that pro abortion people shouldn't have access to their Constitutional rights?

Let's say that Obama and the Dems want to pass legislation that would render anti gay marriage laws null and void. Will they not introduce such legislation because EVERYONE isn't on board? That won't stop them for a moment. They will define themselves as "everyone" for their purposes if that's needed. If Obama says "I" or "my party" or whatever group will resist religious influences, then good! That's not what he said. He told someone else that they may not participate unless they pass his standards. That's the rub. He is telling them that they cannot. They have no choice. Well they damn well do. So do the gays, the blacks and the religious, the athiestic, the KKK for that matter.

My problem isn't what Obama says he stands for and believes in. It's his statement of what others need do to meet his criteria before they may have a voice. Even now, I don't say that Obama can't say what he's saying, but I won't endorce the philosophy.
You raise a good point. I suppose if Obama had said 'these people SHOULD'... then I would agree with him. Instead, he says that 'democracy demands' these things.

Personally, I feel that if I am going to argue for a law, it should have some universalizability (made up words FTW), which to me means that it should be based on principles accessible to everyone, such as logic. To me, this is what the study of ethics is all about. By attempting to arrive at things that are 'right' and 'wrong' based solely on reason and not involving specific religious dogmas or doctrines, the results are applicable to everyone, regardless of whether they subscribe to your personal belief system. Your point is that not everyone chooses to set their moral standards in accord with this litmus test and who am I to tell them otherwise? I agree that these others should be able to lobby for change as they see fit, whether or not their opinion meets my standards. so, while I personally believe that responsible legislation (in some idealized sense, at least) should hold to this standard, I don't think that it should be some mandatory criterion for proposed legislation.

Exactly. Morality is a PERSONAL thing and should not be legislated.
 
Originally posted by: bamacre
Well said, yes. But IMO, religion has nothing to do with what I see as our nation's biggest problems.

I'm sorry, but abortion, gay marriage, and A: creationism/evolution all need to be taken back to the end of the line.

B: Our education system needs work, bigtime. Same for healthcare. And on the same stage, foreign policy and fixing the mess in Iraq.

We need to end the "war on terror," and launch a "war on Al Qaeda."

We need to also end our "war on drugs," and find better ways of fixing our cities' crack and meth problems.

I agree with your statements whole-heartedly. As an example of the mess I have bolded these 2 statements to point out why political issues unfortunately become serious issues:
It is the inclusion of bolded statement A into bolded institution B, that further adds to the deteriation of bolded institution B. This "debate" needs to be accurately depicted for what it is--one extremist side bullying themselves into an argument that exists only for one viewpoint.
 
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