Obama's Tax Increase on the Middle Class. YES, Increase

[fskimospy]

20.5% vs 21.6%

You're talking 2015 vs a 2014 average then, which isn't a valid comparison, and I'm not sure if the CBO and OECD are using similar methodology. Best to stick to apples to apples, which is 19.2 vs 21.6.

 

[ivwshane]

go ahead. raise the taxes. It will just get passed along in higher prices for all goods and services. Gawd you guys are dense.

Says the guy who clearly doesn't understand how market forces work.

 

[werepossum]

Heh. From the bloomberg article-



Lots of American families have trouble setting aside money for a Christmas account let alone having a 529 plan. You know- Mitt's 47%. Negative effects fall almost entirely on the upper end of the food chain.

So government totally needs to punish those who can set aside money for Christmas or a 529 plan. Otherwise it isn't fair. Besides, it's a good thing to punish the middle class or even poor people if they're just collateral damage in the war against the upper class. /proggie

Its pretty clear that they want to screw over the young, though.

I don't think it's that they want to screw over the young, they just want control over them. Make it more difficult for the parents to fund college - but make it easier for Uncle Sugar to do the same. Who ya gonna vote for, youngster?

You act like the program is also paying the university costs.

That 40% rate is going to decrease under the plan since people who can't afford university are going to go and end up at a dead end IE a waste of their time like I said.

Not necessarily. In the first place, there are many two year degree programs which can earn a good living. People can also get a two year degree or skill set that can self-finance further education at a decent college or university much more easily than flipping burgers. In the second place, not having all four years paid doesn't eliminate the possibility, it still makes it easier to have two years paid. Some prospective students may choose to take two years at community college in lieu of their first two years at university. Others may be inspired to attend university because they now aren't looking at nearly such an imposing debt and it seems bearable. Others will do exactly as they would have done otherwise, two years at community college and two years at university, but will have less debt. Others will take two years and stop, wasting time and money because nobody is giving them the next two years for free, just as some won't even start. Can't fix everybody.

I'm a lot more leery of Uncle Sugar than is your average bear, but not everything government takes on is a bad idea. Two years of free community college for the poor seems to me to be an excellent compromise between free everything and fuck you. Also, many of the poor are trapped in schools which are horrible, so even if their stellar performance in high school gets them into university free via the top 10% they aren't prepared to succeed at university. This is essentially a do-over; if you weren't in that top 10% but now realize you need a useful education, now's your chance. USe it wisely.

 

[werepossum]

Well I am, I would never have gotten my degrees without them.

Congrats. Just goes to show that debt taken intelligently is a good thing.

As a father of 3 college grads all with advanced degrees (doctor, economist, and nurse practitioner) and one more entering college this Fall (doctor wanna be), I hear you as far as the debt goes...but fortunately they all have good earnings potential. I boggles my mind why some choose to go into such massive debt just to have the "college experience" without any reasonable prospect of having a viable profession to pay for it after they graduate. I understand that it's not uncommon for some to still have school debt well into their 50s and 60s...wow.


Public financed model...our spending is out of control as it is and I can't see that going anywhere. Percentage of earnings for the next 20 years sounds dandy except what about those that don't earn squat? It falls back on the tax payers. I don't know the answer...but it sure looks to me like we're in desperate need of a new paradigm.

Congrats on raising four smart, sensible children.

 

[Linux23]

propaganda works and the op proves it!


Thread backfire!!

omfg. Lol.

 

[Jhhnn]

So government totally needs to punish those who can set aside money for Christmas or a 529 plan. Otherwise it isn't fair. Besides, it's a good thing to punish the middle class or even poor people if they're just collateral damage in the war against the upper class. /proggie

Desperately dishonest, of course, in that usual hate-um Obama way.

I already linked the pertinent stats as to who uses 529's. It's not poor people, obviously, nor many in the middle class, either. The whole thing is very much edge case, designed to benefit people at the high end of the food chain. It is, in truth, a small detail in terms of taxes no matter how much you want to puff it up.

 

[sportage]

I always trust republicans in congress when it comes to my child's future education.
YeAh....RiGiT....

 

[Knowing]

This is why I can occasionally stomach reading slate.

So, yes, Obama wants to tax college savers. But, by and large, they're wealthy college savers. When the Government Accountability Office looked at 529 plans and their less popular cousins, Coverdell accounts, it found that 47 percent of families that had them earned more than $150,000 per year. (Depending on who's measuring, that puts them in at least the top 10 percent of U.S. households.) By comparison, it noted, the median income of families with a student in college is $47,747.

I don't know about you, but I generally don't think that our higher education policy should be geared toward helping families that earned $150,000 or more send their kid to the most expensive possible school. Meanwhile, the White House says that revenue brought in from taxing gains in 529 plans would go toward expanding other higher education tax breaks, such as the American Opportunity Tax Credit, which is available to families earning up to $180,000. So it seems like the middle class makes out just fine in this deal.

 

[LegendKiller]

So everyone you know is blowing their money instead of saving it and that means everyone who doesn't use this saving plan is like them too? Not only that but you are sacrificing now to save for later, thus you are better in this regard than everyone you see?

My, aren't you a special snowflake! You need to write a book about this. Maybe even start a blog!

Not everyone I know but a lot of them are, far more than should be. If you talk to them about college savings it just doesn't even enter the equation.

But then again, you're probably one of those fucking losers who isn't, so yes, mr bitch tits, I am better than you. It has nothing to do with being a special snowflake, it has to do with being a fuck of a lot smarter than "DR"Doug. So yeah, go fuck yourself chuckles.

 

[LegendKiller]

This is why I can occasionally stomach reading slate.

If he were to say that he was enacting broad based reform of the student loan program to share risk with the colleges, I'd be on board, because it would bring down the top-line cost of education. However, that isn't the goal he is pursuing. His goal is wealth redistribution with no resolution to the actual problem.

Ohhh, wow, a fucking tax credit. Doesn't do a fucking thing, at all, for expense.

Don't know about you but I don't think $150k is massively rolling in the dough, especially when college costs so fucking much.

 

[nickqt]

If he were to say that he was enacting broad based reform of the student loan program to share risk with the colleges, I'd be on board, because it would bring down the top-line cost of education. However, that isn't the goal he is pursuing. His goal is wealth redistribution with no resolution to the actual problem.

Ohhh, wow, a fucking tax credit. Doesn't do a fucking thing, at all, for expense.

Don't know about you but I don't think $150k is massively rolling in the dough, especially when college costs so fucking much.

$150k isn't rolling in the dough, but most middle class families aren't sitting on an extra $150k in cash/securities. 529s are great if you have extra money to put into them, but what is the average net worth of a middle class family minus house (-mortgage) and cars (-loans)? To be sitting on $150k in liquidity isn't exactly what I imagine as "middle class", at least over the past 30 years.

Can the tax be assessed somewhere else? Yeah, sure can. And to be honest, I think 529s should be made more expansive so that money spent on day 1 for college/books/tuition/expenses should earn a tax credit, so that people paying for college get a tax cut without first having extra money that most middle class families don't have sitting around.

Colleges that are just plows for turning over students for student loan money should be 1/2 responsible for all outstanding debt. i.e. if graduation rates of an incoming class/% of students is under 50%, they're on the hook and have to stop paying their President the $100k+ salary they all currently enjoy, along with the money spent on things that improve image rather than education/curriculum.

 

[LegendKiller]

$150k isn't rolling in the dough, but most middle class families aren't sitting on an extra $150k in cash/securities. 529s are great if you have extra money to put into them, but what is the average net worth of a middle class family minus house (-mortgage) and cars (-loans)? To be sitting on $150k in liquidity isn't exactly what I imagine as "middle class", at least over the past 30 years.

Can the tax be assessed somewhere else? Yeah, sure can. And to be honest, I think 529s should be made more expansive so that money spent on day 1 for college/books/tuition/expenses should earn a tax credit, so that people paying for college get a tax cut without first having extra money that most middle class families don't have sitting around.

Colleges that are just plows for turning over students for student loan money should be 1/2 responsible for all outstanding debt. i.e. if graduation rates of an incoming class/% of students is under 50%, they're on the hook and have to stop paying their President the $100k+ salary they all currently enjoy, along with the money spent on things that improve image rather than education/curriculum.

The middle class would be sitting on a lot more money if they did something besides spend everything.

$200 cable bills, $200 phone bills, $700 car payments...etc.

 

[nickqt]

The middle class would be sitting on a lot more money if they did something besides spend everything.

$200 cable bills, $200 phone bills, $700 car payments...etc.

They'd also be sitting on a lot more money if their wages had grown with their productivity, as wages had done until the late 1970s.

 

[LegendKiller]

They'd also be sitting on a lot more money if their wages had grown with their productivity, as wages had done until the late 1970s.

It hasn't, so the alternative is that everybody else has to pay so they can keep up with the Joneses?

It isn't the upper middle classes' fault their wages have been stagnant, perhaps if they'd stop shopping at Wal Mart and demand more "Made in America", or reject the idiotic notion of "supply side" economics, they'd have higher wages.

An iPhone is not a right, cable is not a right, but even now, Obama is on TV saying "If you can't afford to have kids because child care costs, we will make sure you can".

It's just a wealth transfer. Gotta make sure you take from one and give to another.

 

[brycejones]

They'd also be sitting on a lot more money if their wages had grown with their productivity, as wages had done until the late 1970s.

But then it can't trickle down. Wages need to remain stagnant so more wealth can trickle down.

 

[ivwshane]

They'd also be sitting on a lot more money if their wages had grown with their productivity, as wages had done until the late 1970s.

What LK fails to realize is that had the middle class saved more, our consumer based economy would be much worse off. He doesn't realize that consumer spending is the engine that makes this economy move and he wants to kill it.

 

[nickqt]

It hasn't, so the alternative is that everybody else has to pay so they can keep up with the Joneses?

An iPhone is not a right, cable is not a right, but even now, Obama is on TV saying "If you can't afford to have kids because child care costs, we will make sure you can".

It's just a wealth transfer. Gotta make sure you take from one and give to another.

In case you haven't been paying attention, marginal tax rates on income and capital gains have plummeted. Hence, no, they haven't been taking it from others. They've been borrowing. The term middle class denotes a certain standard of living. Expecting people to strive for middle class-dom, and then expecting them to forgo it because their boss has decided that they aren't going to pay them for their increased productivity, because they want the money themselves, is ridiculous.

Wealth transfers have been happening since the late 1970s, as the rabble have continued to work and produce, but their bosses have decided that they were just going to go ahead and keep all of the extra money, what with their taxes being lowered. Now they can give it to Wall St. criminals to push it around enough to earn even more money.

Telling the middle class to forgo the whole reason of becoming middle class in the first place just so that they can keep up with their bills is the same thing as saying that the middle class shouldn't exist.

The middle class can only exist if the people with all the money recognize that perhaps the people who are making them rich deserve a fair share. Otherwise, we should all be happy to live on company land and purchase our goods and services at the company store using company scrip.

If you want to argue that the owners of capital should be feudal lords, then just come out and say it.

 

[LegendKiller]

What LK fails to realize is that had the middle class saved more, our consumer based economy would be much worse off. He doesn't realize that consumer spending is the engine that makes this economy move and he wants to kill it.

But the end-game is still there, sure, it works for now, but it won't work forever. You're seeing it now in a lack of household formation, younger generations deferring houses, cars. Lenders that I talk to routinely are not lending to students that have that debt. Their parents bought all of the shit they, and their kids wanted, in lieu of college savings, and are now their kids are paying the price for their largesses.

Then, even more telling, is the number of parents having their wages, social security, or co-singing executed for the student loans. Undoubtedly partially why unemployment among those older workers is going down, while younger workers is either up or flat. As the parents didn't save as much they now have to work longer.

Since the parents can't retire they don't create room for those below them to advance up, thus the entire stack is effected, all of the way down to the lowest entry level job.

You see, you're too fucking stupid to think of the Nth order effects.

 

[LegendKiller]

In case you haven't been paying attention, marginal tax rates on income and capital gains have plummeted. Hence, no, they haven't been taking it from others. They've been borrowing. The term middle class denotes a certain standard of living. Expecting people to strive for middle class-dom, and then expecting them to forgo it because their boss has decided that they aren't going to pay them for their increased productivity, because they want the money themselves, is ridiculous.

Wealth transfers have been happening since the late 1970s, as the rabble have continued to work and produce, but their bosses have decided that they were just going to go ahead and keep all of the extra money, what with their taxes being lowered. Now they can give it to Wall St. criminals to push it around enough to earn even more money.

Telling the middle class to forgo the whole reason of becoming middle class in the first place just so that they can keep up with their bills is the same thing as saying that the middle class shouldn't exist.

The middle class can only exist if the people with all the money recognize that perhaps the people who are making them rich deserve a fair share. Otherwise, we should all be happy to live on company land and purchase our goods and services at the company store using company scrip.

If you want to argue that the owners of capital should be feudal lords, then just come out and say it.

Guess you missed the point where I railed on trickle down. $150k'ers aren't feudal lords. Shit, they are barely a cavalryman.

Feudal lords don't care about being able to save for 529s. They can pay $60k to Georgetown for Timmy's school out of their petty cash.

But hey, fuck those upper middle class people. They are EVIL!

 

[ivwshane]

But the end-game is still there, sure, it works for now, but it won't work forever. You're seeing it now in a lack of household formation, younger generations deferring houses, cars. Lenders that I talk to routinely are not lending to students that have that debt. Their parents bought all of the shit they, and their kids wanted, in lieu of college savings, and are now their kids are paying the price for their largesses.

Then, even more telling, is the number of parents having their wages, social security, or co-singing executed for the student loans. Undoubtedly partially why unemployment among those older workers is going down, while younger workers is either up or flat. As the parents didn't save as much they now have to work longer.

Since the parents can't retire they don't create room for those below them to advance up, thus the entire stack is effected, all of the way down to the lowest entry level job.

You see, you're too fucking stupid to think of the Nth order effects.

Lol! So your solution is to continue the cycle of low pay, more debt, longer working years, less upward mobility, repeat. Talk about fucking stupid!

 

[LegendKiller]

Lol! So your solution is to continue the cycle of low pay, more debt, longer working years, less upward mobility, repeat. Talk about fucking stupid!

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Do you even speak english?

 

[nickqt]

Guess you missed the point where I railed on trickle down. $150k'ers aren't feudal lords. Shit, they are barely a cavalryman.

Feudal lords don't care about being able to save for 529s. They can pay $60k to Georgetown for Timmy's school out of their petty cash.

But hey, fuck those upper middle class people. They are EVIL!

I didn't miss it, since I directly addressed them. They aren't rich feudal lords, but they aren't typical "middle class" people, sitting on $150k in liquid cash/securities. I guess you missed where I said that 529s don't need to be taxed, and that even more tax incentives should be given for present money spent on education, rather than only giving tax incentives for money that sits in a tax shelter until it gets used at some unknown point in the future.

And yes, I'm sorry, but you don't know/work for very many intelligent rich people if you think they are dumb enough to not put money into a tax shelter for their kids' education. They'll also have their parents contribute too. Any relatively intelligent rich person has hired an estate planning attorney/accountant who makes sure that they are using all possible tax shelters. Otherwise, that's basically per se negligence. Look it up.

Oh yes, I hate the upper middle class, and I clearly want to personally murder rich people. You sure are good at burning down straw men! Not only do you construct them yourself with care, but you got some napalm in a barrel nearby for easy immolation. Congrats!

 

[DrDoug]

Not everyone I know but a lot of them are, far more than should be. If you talk to them about college savings it just doesn't even enter the equation.

But then again, you're probably one of those fucking losers who isn't, so yes, mr bitch tits, I am better than you. It has nothing to do with being a special snowflake, it has to do with being a fuck of a lot smarter than "DR"Doug. So yeah, go fuck yourself chuckles.

Awww, did I upset you little snowflake? If it makes you feel better then yes, you are much better than me and everyone else out there! You are the smartest little snowflake in the universe of snowflakes! Everyone else is just slush compared to your epic snowflake bestness!

Keep generalizing everything and everybody so you can make yourself feel better than everyone else, it's laughable and I like to laugh. :awe:

 

[LegendKiller]

Awww, did I upset you little snowflake? If it makes you feel better then yes, you are much better than me and everyone else out there! You are the smartest little snowflake in the universe of snowflakes! Everyone else is just slush compared to your epic snowflake bestness!

Keep generalizing everything and everybody so you can make yourself feel better than everyone else, it's laughable and I like to laugh. :awe:

Thanks! Glad you care.

 

[WackyDan]

Desperately dishonest, of course, in that usual hate-um Obama way.

I already linked the pertinent stats as to who uses 529's. It's not poor people, obviously, nor many in the middle class, either. The whole thing is very much edge case, designed to benefit people at the high end of the food chain. It is, in truth, a small detail in terms of taxes no matter how much you want to puff it up.

So 600,000 families in the middle class currently with 529's can just go fuck themselves apparently.

Someone suggested that if the cuts take 1 dollar out of one pocket and put 2 dollars in the other pocket of the middle class then they see no reason to bitch.

Except that in terms of investment, that extra $2 typically won't automatically be put into college savings now will it? The impact to 529's for those middle class families that have some extra coin to save will be felt not now, but when it comes time to pay for tuition among other expenses. It is funny how you want to wage war against the rich at the expense of 600,000 middle class families because well... They are just a drop in the bucket right?

For that matter, pretty much every investment vehicle the middle class has, the 1% has available as well... So we might as well look at taxing every investment at higher rates due to that alone. Fuck the rich. TO be clear, I have no problem taxing the 1%, but do have a problem with the attitude that it's ok to screw the middle class on something important as college education.