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obama's retarded health care reform plan

when i first heard that obama would tackle health care costs in this country, i thought it was great... someone who finally understands how major this issue is and how it is crippling citizens and corporations alike.

now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- America is finally getting a detailed look at the sweeping, long-awaited health-care reform platform championed by President Obama. This week the Democrats have unveiled their two primary proposals -- a 700-plus page bill in the Senate and the outline of the forthcoming version in the House that presents essentially the same blueprint for change.

The crucial question about Obama's agenda has always been whether it really will slow the disastrous rise in health-care spending, or actually increase it while hiding the real costs of the new system. On analyzing the bills, the conclusion is inescapable: Obama promises Americans what appears to be a bargain by heavily subsidizing their premiums. But the only way to pay for what's really outrageously expensive coverage will be huge tax increases, especially on the same middle class that's being wooed as the chief beneficiary of reform.
0:00 /4:21Curing public health care

The plans contain four proposals that will substantially weaken the ability of the market, already limited by burdensome regulation, to restrain medical spending.

First, they will impose rich, standard packages of benefits, with low deductibles, for all Americans. Those policies, typically containing everything from in-vitro fertilization to mental health benefits, are usually far more expensive than anything most people would pay for with their own money.

Second, the plans would impose on a federal level the doctrine of community rating, in which all customers have to be offered the same rates, regardless of their health risks. Community rating forces young people to pay far more than their actual cost, a main reason for today's 46 million uninsured, while it subsidizes older patients.

Third, Obama would ban consumers from buying private insurance across state lines, perpetuating the price differences in today's fragmented market, instead of allowing all Americans to shop anywhere for the best deals.

Fourth, both plans propose what's known as a "public option," or a Medicare-style plan that would compete with the private offerings. The previous three proposals would make the private plans extremely expensive. With the same subsidies, the Medicare-style plan could put them out of business.

Before we get into the specifics of each problem, it's important to note that Obama's health-care plan is not included in his 2010 budget. The administration pledges that his health-care plan won't expand the deficit because it will be entirely paid for by tax increases. But even if the deficit stays the same, spending and taxes will be far from the same. By most estimates, Obama's plan will cost more than $200 billion a year by 2019. All told, government outlays as a share of GDP are projected to reach 26% by that point, up five percentage points from when Obama took office.

Now, let's examine the four ways in which the new proposals are likely to increase costs:

1.) The two bills would require states to establish insurance "exchanges" that would offer a variety of plans. The rub is that the federal government would impose minimum standards on all of those plans, from New York to Wyoming to Hawaii, that are often more stringent and expensive than the existing laws require.

A case in point is the first requirement, the minimum benefits package. Today, many states require a menu of costly coverage, while others impose only light requirements. Colorado, for example, mandates hair transplants, rehab services, and hearing aids, while Illinois requires none of them. The Senate bill gives a preliminary list that includes mental health and prescription drug benefits, and substance abuse programs. That's the minimum menu that all states would have to offer.

A special panel of experts would add to that list -- and you can bet that the additions would be substantial and costly. As a result, it would be far more difficult for consumers to purchase basic, stripped down, low-cost policies for catastrophic care that are bargains in states like Alabama or Indiana.

2.) In its purest form, community rating requires that insurers charge the same premiums for all their patients, regardless of their age, obesity or any lifestyle differences. New York, New Jersey and a half-dozen other states have stringent community rating laws. In most states, insurers can charge their customers according to their actual costs, so a 62-year-old smoker would pay, say, $10,000 for a policy versus $800 for a 20-year-old marathoner.

The senate plan would impose a strict, narrow band on all premiums nationwide: Insurers could never charge more than twice as much in premiums for their most expensive patient versus their least costly. So the 62-year-old's policy might fall to $5,000, and the 20-year-old's would go to $2,500. The senior would get a big subsidy, and the youngster would pay far more than his real cost.

3.) The state "exchanges" would exist in 50 totally separate markets. Even with the harmonization of community rating and benefits packages, the differences in prices across states would remain large.

Allowing Americans to buy insurance anywhere, at the lowest prices, would create nationwide competition that would drive down costs everywhere. But the Obama plan will not allow a true national market. It's remarkable that Obama would endorse a plan that perpetuates big price differences. His solution for Medicare is to do just the opposite by flattening costs in the most expensive regions to match the lowest levels anywhere in the U.S.

4.) The so-called public option is now included in both the Senate and House bills, and is strongly endorsed by Obama. Under the public option, the exchanges would offer a plan resembling Medicare for more than 100 million working Americans. Today, most of them are covered by their employers' plans. But the Democrats' proposals contain a "pay or play" provision that would allow companies, in effect, to drop their coverage and substitute a payroll tax.

Because their health care costs are growing so rapidly, it's likely that most companies would dump their plans. "That's what will happen," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, which champions free-market solutions to health care. "Employees could then go to the exchanges and get subsidized insurance."

The problem here is that the public option would compete directly with the private plans. Both would be heavily subsidized, with Americans making up to $110,000 eligible for assistance under the Senate proposal. It's likely that the Medicare-like option will drive out private insurers, since the government plan has several advantages. The plans impose public-utility-like restrictions on the insurers, capping their profits and transferring premiums from the insurers with the younger, healthier patients to those who serve an older, sicker population. Those restrictions will hardly make them nimble competitors. At the same time, the imposition of costly benefits packages and community rating will raise their costs.

That the government enjoys an edge in purchasing doesn't mean that the overall costs will fall. It's precisely the opposite. The public plan will be so heavily subsidized that Americans will tend to over-consume expensive medical services just the way they do now under regular Medicare. Only this time, the number of patients will be almost three times larger.

The demand for everything from knee surgery to mental health counseling will soar. But the government will keep a lid on prices, so Americans, for the first time, will be faced with rationing. The hospitals and physicians simply won't be able to satisfy the unhinged demand for the services that look like a bargain.

The lines will grow. And so will the spending, and the taxes. And that's what Obama isn't telling you.
 
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Tell me genius, if you're a healthy young individual who currently pays for health insurance, does your premium subsidize the cost of unhealthy sick individuals?

If you're a safe driver who never gets into accidents, does your car insurance premium subsidize the cost of unsafe drivers who get into accidents?
 
There Major problem with For-Profit Health care is the Profit, Cause thats what all decisions will be made upon

Oh and 2008 was such a crappy financial year

* Ron Williams - Aetna - Total Compensation: $24,300,112.
* H. Edward Hanway - CIGNA - Total Compensation: $12,236,740.
* Angela Braly - WellPoint - Total Compensation: $9,844,212.
* Dale Wolf - Coventry Health Care - Total Compensation: $9,047,469.
* Michael Neidorff - Centene - Total Compensation: $8,774,483.
* James Carlson - AMERIGROUP - Total Compensation: $5,292,546.
* Michael McCallister - Humana - Total Compensation: $4,764,309.
* Jay Gellert - Health Net - Total Compensation: $4,425,355.
* Richard Barasch - Universal American - Total Compensation: $3,503,702.
* Stephen Hemsley - UnitedHealth Group - Total Compensation: $3,241,042.
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Tell me genius, if you're a healthy young individual who currently pays for health insurance, does your premium subsidize the cost of unhealthy sick individuals?

If you're a safe driver who never gets into accidents, does your car insurance premium subsidize the cost of unsafe drivers who get into accidents?

Dont blame him, he is a product of our education system, but i bet he could pass a standardized test
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Tell me genius, if you're a healthy young individual who currently pays for health insurance, does your premium subsidize the cost of unhealthy sick individuals?

If you're a safe driver who never gets into accidents, does your car insurance premium subsidize the cost of unsafe drivers who get into accidents?

yes, but what this new plan calls for is ridiculous.
from $800 to $2500? that's triple. that's just going to discourage more folks from getting insurance altogether.

i know so many ppl early-mid 20's who forgo insurance just because of how much it costs. imagine it tripling, and there will be more uninsured folks than now.
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Tell me genius, if you're a healthy young individual who currently pays for health insurance, does your premium subsidize the cost of unhealthy sick individuals?

If you're a safe driver who never gets into accidents, does your car insurance premium subsidize the cost of unsafe drivers who get into accidents?

A 16 year old with a Porsche pays a lot more than a 40 year old with an Accord and a clean driving record.

Why shouldn't an old, fat smoker pay a lot more than a young health conscious person?
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Tell me genius, if you're a healthy young individual who currently pays for health insurance, does your premium subsidize the cost of unhealthy sick individuals?

If you're a safe driver who never gets into accidents, does your car insurance premium subsidize the cost of unsafe drivers who get into accidents?

A 16 year old with a Porsche pays a lot more than a 40 year old with an Accord and a clean driving record.

Why shouldn't an old, fat smoker pay a lot more than a young health conscious person?


Herpes

I mean whatever happens in Vegas, Stays in vegas

Except Herpes, That shit will follow you back
 
now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

I agree... people who are sick should be free to be denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition.

Republicans.txt
 
While I'm not a proponent of Obamacare, the younger people paying higher premiums due to older people argument doesn't hold water. I can purchase a family policy equivalent to the one offered by my employer for $750/mo. The premium the company is paying is about $2000/mo. because of the old people in the plan. That's the way group coverage works. Unfortunately, I cannot opt out of my employer's plan because it would cost me an extra $100/mo. and the company will not kick in anything if I get my own coverage because all the young employees would drop the plan in a heartbeat leading to the old folks having to pay even higher premiums. Don't get me wrong, the details listed show yet another fundamentally broke system from inception but I would have to do more research. My bottom line is I DO NOT want the government involved in my health care. My body, my choice will become a thing of the past once we give the .gov control over this aspect of our lives. Keep the freaking government out of my life choices.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

I agree... people who are sick should be free to be denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition.

Republicans.txt

who said anything about denying health insurance? they just have to pay more for it because it costs more to care for a sick person than a healthy person.

why not just hand out free health insurance for everyone then? lets see how that turns out.

or subsidize it to hell so that when all the healthy folks stop buying health insurance, all the unhealthy folks will have to foot the bill themselves.
 
Originally posted by: smashp
There Major problem with For-Profit Health care is the Profit, Cause thats what all decisions will be made upon

Oh and 2008 was such a crappy financial year

* Ron Williams - Aetna - Total Compensation: $24,300,112.
* H. Edward Hanway - CIGNA - Total Compensation: $12,236,740.
* Angela Braly - WellPoint - Total Compensation: $9,844,212.
* Dale Wolf - Coventry Health Care - Total Compensation: $9,047,469.
* Michael Neidorff - Centene - Total Compensation: $8,774,483.
* James Carlson - AMERIGROUP - Total Compensation: $5,292,546.
* Michael McCallister - Humana - Total Compensation: $4,764,309.
* Jay Gellert - Health Net - Total Compensation: $4,425,355.
* Richard Barasch - Universal American - Total Compensation: $3,503,702.
* Stephen Hemsley - UnitedHealth Group - Total Compensation: $3,241,042.

% of total revenue: 0.0000000000000001%
 
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: Phokus
now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

I agree... people who are sick should be free to be denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition.

Republicans.txt

who said anything about denying health insurance? they just have to pay more for it because it costs more to care for a sick person than a healthy person.

why not just hand out free health insurance for everyone then? lets see how that turns out.

Because that's what insurance companies do. If you have a pre-existing condition, try signing up for a health insurance plan. They won't let you on. The whole point is to spread risk around. A healthy person with insurance might get sick later, but the insurance company doesn't know that, they have other healthy people on their rolls to pay for that person later. But if you're already sick, you'll be an immediate drain on their resources and it wouldn't make sense for them to have you sign on and decline their profits.
 
obama's retarded health care reform plan

The retarded will naturally be covered under universal health care, you idiot.
 
Surprisingly, the author of that (unlinked) commentary also preferred John McCain.




I predict that more FUD will be spread by this debate than that seen with "Harry and Louise".
 
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
when i first heard that obama would tackle health care costs in this country, i thought it was great... someone who finally understands how major this issue is and how it is crippling citizens and corporations alike.

now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.
Did you even bother to think before typing that crap about 'socialism?' :roll:
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
obama's retarded health care reform plan

The retarded will naturally be covered under universal health care, you idiot.

You can make sure they get treated for their dissent. I hear it is a growing disease these days, almost as common as the flu.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: Phokus
now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

I agree... people who are sick should be free to be denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition.

Republicans.txt

who said anything about denying health insurance? they just have to pay more for it because it costs more to care for a sick person than a healthy person.

why not just hand out free health insurance for everyone then? lets see how that turns out.

Because that's what insurance companies do. If you have a pre-existing condition, try signing up for a health insurance plan. They won't let you on. The whole point is to spread risk around. A healthy person with insurance might get sick later, but the insurance company doesn't know that, they have other healthy people on their rolls to pay for that person later. But if you're already sick, you'll be an immediate drain on their resources and it wouldn't make sense for them to have you sign on and decline their profits.

Except that the right to medical care isn't only universal and inalienable, it's a requirement for the continuation of society. There should be a 100% disconnect between profit and basic healthcare. I have no problem with profit for elective, or cosmetic health issues.

At the point where people can no longer exist below a certain income, they will do ANYTHING to either raise their income or find a way around societal restrictions in order to survive. That means crime, fraud...ANYTHING. If you want to prevent skyrocketing theft, murder, kidnapping, etc then you MUST support a society which provides basic necessities for all citizens, or at LEAST acts to make those necessities affordable to ALL segments of that society.

Not everyone can make a lot of money. It's simply not possible under any economic system that I'm aware of for everyone to be well off. Therefore you can't dismiss the core issue by hiding behind - 'just make more money'. There's a finite amount to be earned.
 
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
obama's retarded health care reform plan

The retarded will naturally be covered under universal health care, you idiot.

That's why so many here support it.

Yes, clearly the one who is most reading comprehension challenged on this forum should be making this statement.

OBAMA SAYS US IS A MOOOOOSLIM COUNTRY? WTFBBQ?!?!?!!!!! :roll:
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: Phokus
now that details are coming forth, i find myself thinking just the opposite.
healthy young individuals subsidizing unhealthy, sick individuals? sounds like socialism to me.

I agree... people who are sick should be free to be denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition.

Republicans.txt

who said anything about denying health insurance? they just have to pay more for it because it costs more to care for a sick person than a healthy person.

why not just hand out free health insurance for everyone then? lets see how that turns out.

Because that's what insurance companies do. If you have a pre-existing condition, try signing up for a health insurance plan. They won't let you on. The whole point is to spread risk around. A healthy person with insurance might get sick later, but the insurance company doesn't know that, they have other healthy people on their rolls to pay for that person later. But if you're already sick, you'll be an immediate drain on their resources and it wouldn't make sense for them to have you sign on and decline their profits.

Except that the right to medical care isn't only universal and inalienable, it's a requirement for the continuation of society. There should be a 100% disconnect between profit and basic healthcare. I have no problem with profit for elective, or cosmetic health issues.

At the point where people can no longer exist below a certain income, they will do ANYTHING to either raise their income or find a way around societal restrictions in order to survive. That means crime, fraud...ANYTHING. If you want to prevent skyrocketing theft, murder, kidnapping, etc then you MUST support a society which provides basic necessities for all citizens, or at LEAST acts to make those necessities affordable to ALL segments of that society.

Not everyone can make a lot of money. It's simply not possible under any economic system that I'm aware of for everyone to be well off. Therefore you can't dismiss the core issue by hiding behind - 'just make more money'. There's a finite amount to be earned.

Who say's you have a right to medical care?

And here's the "if you don't want to get killed, you should do X" argument again. Twice in two days, two different topics, two different posters. Is that the new liberal marketing tactic?
 
Originally posted by: CPA
Who say's you have a right to medical care?
Nearly all industrialized nations do.

I do.

Obama voters do.

The Democrats who control the legislative and executive branches of our government do.

I'm sure there were plenty of conservatives who disagreed with Medicare as well. Guess what? We still got it. And we'll get this, too, in due time.

At some point, liberals will realize there is no middle-ground on the issue of UHC, and we'll stop pandering to the conservatives about it.
 
Originally posted by: OCguy
Its OK, we'll just charge it.

I'm beginning to think all the Obama campaign literature had a typo on it. The slogan was actually supposed to be Charge, not Change.
 
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