Obama's orders launched Fast and Furious

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You learn the false attribution game fast. The govt didn't sell guns to anybody- Southwest gun dealers did, with the knowledge of the BATF. And they legally (theoretically unknowingly) sold many thousands more to straw buyers for the cartels. The only reason these guns can be easily traced is because of cooperation with the BATF. All the rest, not so much.

One good thing about all of this, however, is that the usual mowrons aren't claiming that cartel guns aren't coming from the US. They are.

BATF screwup? Apparently somewhere along the line. The answer, of course, is to cut their budget, along with the Border Patrol, DEA, FBI, & IRS...

Yeh, that'll chasten them, inspire them to do a better job with fewer resources. Hell, if the cartels made peace with each other, concentrated on business, they'd really run rings around law enforcement on both sides of the border because of their enormous resources in cash & personnel.

All brought to us by our own demand for drugs & the chauvinistic hypocrisy surrounding that.
The gun sellers certainly at least suspected that they were selling to straw buyers, which is why they notified the BATFE who made a conscious decision not to stop them. There was however no real attempt to track the weapons inside Mexico.

The cartels do buy a relatively small number of weapons from US dealers, but the big boys buy full auto AKMs smuggled up through Guatemala or directly into Mexico. When one can pick up a full auto assault rifle for a couple hundred bucks, only those small fry without the connections pay retail from US dealers.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
LOL! So now they're requiring dealers to report anybody buying more than two rifles in a 5 day period. Looks like they're trying to fix the problem they created! You can't make this stuff up. Problem is, drug guys don't mess with semi-auto rifles.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/July/11-dag-900.html

“The international expansion and increased violence of transnational criminal networks pose a significant threat to the United States. Federal, state and foreign law enforcement agencies have determined that certain types of semi-automatic rifles – greater than .22 caliber and with the ability to accept a detachable magazine – are highly sought after by dangerous drug trafficking organizations and frequently recovered at violent crime scenes near the Southwest Border. This new reporting measure -- tailored to focus only on multiple sales of these types of rifles to the same person within a five-day period -- will improve the ability of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to detect and disrupt the illegal weapons trafficking networks responsible for diverting firearms from lawful commerce to criminals and criminal organizations. These targeted information requests will occur in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to help confront the problem of illegal gun trafficking into Mexico and along the Southwest Border.”
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,417
60
91
Which of the movies did Obama launch -- the one with 'The Rock' in it? I didn't see that one yet. I did like the one in Japan--Asian chicks are hot!
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Obama has already claimed he was not aware as has Holder. The video is not de facto evidence of either of their involvements, it's just more fuel for the fire. For anyone not following the story, Holder has claimed that he had no knowledge of the operation. His deputy, Ogden is shown in this video contradicting that.

Holder is an ideologue in a position that hinges on dedication to the rule of law. He's performed his job thus far with the overriding theme being social justice whether based in law or not. I understand pretty well why Obama felt he was the right man for the job. It's time to place someone in the position who can perform the job with the best interests of all the people in mind. For that we'll have to wait until 2013. In the interim, Holder needs to go.

On another related note, a thank you to those in the thread that have the patience to point out to our friends on the left the facts surrounding this case. Facts that the leftist branch of the media have failed to report. Facts that our friends on the left had no knowledge of.

Ogden isn't contradicting anything. He says the President and AG authorized project gunrunner. He says nothing about Fast and Furious which was a specific ATF operation within the umbrella of that program. The odds even Holder, much less Obama, were aware of these kinds of operational details is slim to none. They may be accountable under the vague "buck stops here" theory, but there is very little chance either had any specific knowledge of the details of this particular operation.

On another note, this seems to have been an incredible foolish operation.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
The gun sellers certainly at least suspected that they were selling to straw buyers, which is why they notified the BATFE who made a conscious decision not to stop them. There was however no real attempt to track the weapons inside Mexico.

The cartels do buy a relatively small number of weapons from US dealers, but the big boys buy full auto AKMs smuggled up through Guatemala or directly into Mexico. When one can pick up a full auto assault rifle for a couple hundred bucks, only those small fry without the connections pay retail from US dealers.

Yeh, and all those Iraqi WMD's were smuggled into the Bekaa valley by Spetsnaz troops before the US could find 'em...

Your opinion is based on what, exactly? Speculation & denial? Confirmation bias? What?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
This thread has taught me the following:

When imitating political opponents, spell evil "ebil", spell freedom "free-dumb", and use lots of exclamation points.

It's such a devastating technique for 5th graders.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Yeh, and all those Iraqi WMD's were smuggled into the Bekaa valley by Spetsnaz troops before the US could find 'em...

Your opinion is based on what, exactly? Speculation & denial? Confirmation bias? What?
Based on the fact that attacks by major cartel forces are usually with military grade automatic weapons. Buying automatic weapons in this country requires a detailed background check and a separate Class 3 license for each, much more intrusive than a simple background check for a semi-automatic weapon.

This thread has taught me the following:

When imitating political opponents, spell evil "ebil", spell freedom "free-dumb", and use lots of exclamation points.

It's such a devastating technique for 5th graders.
LOL Quite true.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
This thread has taught me the following:

When imitating political opponents, spell evil "ebil", spell freedom "free-dumb", and use lots of exclamation points.

It's such a devastating technique for 5th graders.

lol yes. Very difficult to read.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Cannabis is easily, very easily, the least harmful recreational psychotropic drug in the world.

I'm sure you won't let facts interfere with the formulation of your opinion, past performance being what it is...

Yet people still use it as an excuse for their illegal behavior
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
quick question for you partisan hacks.

Why is this obama's fault but killing obl isnt?
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Legalize marijuana because we legalize other deadly substances... that makes a lot of sense.

"OTHER"?

I'll bite, one deadly instance of MJ use please, no need to try to find hundreds of thousands a year like the others... I'm sure there has to be one jackass who OD'd on pot, looking forward to reading about him/her...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
"OTHER"?

I'll bite, one deadly instance of MJ use please, no need to try to find hundreds of thousands a year like the others... I'm sure there has to be one jackass who OD'd on pot, looking forward to reading about him/her...

I think some random guy might have been killed when hit by a bale of the stuff tossed out of an airplane, or died of smoke inhalation trapped in a burning warehouse full of the stuff...

The legacy of reefer sprayed with paraquat, then harvested, smuggled, sold & smoked has yet to be determined, however...

Jump on it, PJ- killer weed, brought to us by the DEA...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
#2. Alcohol and Tobacco are Worse, and They're Legal!


Yep, booze and cigarettes are pretty fucking bad for you. Deadly, even, if they're abused. Hell, I had a doctor tell me straight up that if I didn't quit drinking entirely, I'd be dead within the next five years. I've never heard a doctor tell someone that about their weed smoking. Drunk driving and smoking-related lung cancer have literally killed millions.

In fact, here's a not-at-all-retarded rebuttal from a legalization advocate in response to a "Foundation for a Drug-Free World" pamphlet that claims pot is more dangerous than alcohol. In case you didn't read that, it's exactly what you'd expect from a site that runs its articles over a background of marijuana leaf gifs, versus a highly generalized and exaggerated claim from an organization that is obviously anti-pot. The argument being, "Pot is worse than booze!" "Nuh-uh, alcohol is worse!"

But here's the thing about that entire debate: It doesn't fucking matter.
Throwing out death tolls from tobacco smoke, drunk driving and liver disease makes perfect sense as an argument for making those things illegal. It makes zero sense when trying to convince somebody to make pot legal. Don't you understand that "It will kill fewer people than cigarettes!" could apply to fucking anything? You could pass a law that lets 12 year olds carry concealed guns to school and it'd kill fewer people than drunk driving.

If the argument is that pot is the safer choice, then by that rationale, it's also safer than deep-throating a cactus or mouth-fucking a rattlesnake. Is someone obligating you to choose between the two? There's not a third option of just not doing either of them? That has baffled me for years, and I still don't understand it. But I've heard it. A lot. As if the legalization of one unhealthy activity obligates us to legalize every single thing that's less lethal than that.

You have to remember that the people who have the power to change these laws are old, rich, stuffy white guys who for the most part don't smoke weed. When they hear rebuttals like this, they're picturing a six year old kid stomping his foot and screaming at his mother, "Why can't I play that game? Jimmy's mom lets him play GTA, and that's way worse!" The end result is still that you're arguing for the right to make things worse than they were before.


Read more: 5 Pro-Marijuana Arguments That Aren't Helping | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-pro-marijuana-arguments-that-arent-helping_p2/#ixzz1Rwp1RuV3
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
quick question for you partisan hacks.

Why is this obama's fault but killing obl isnt?
Because this program was started under Obama.

Killing of OBL was just a carry over from Bush. Obama didn't do anything to make it happen other than letting the people on the trail do their job.


Sorta like WW 2. No one gives Truman credit for winning WW 2 even though he was in charge when it ended.
 

xenolith

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2000
1,588
0
76
Actually, studies have shown pot is more dangerous than cigarettes. It's just that cigarettes have been implicated in a much larger scale of meta-analyis.

The chemical composition of tobacco smoke has been extensively examined, and the presence of known and suspected carcinogens in such smoke has contributed to the link between tobacco smoking and adverse health effects. The consumption of marijuana through smoking remains a reality and, among youth, seems to be increasing. There have been only limited examinations of marijuana smoke, including for cannabinoid content and for tar generation.

This study examined the suite of chemicals routinely analyzed in tobacco smoke. As expected, the results showed qualitative similarities with some quantitative differences.

In this study, ammonia was found in mainstream marijuana smoke at levels up to 20-fold greater than that found in tobacco.

Hydrogen cyanide, NO, NOx, and some aromatic amines were found in marijuana smoke at concentrations 3–5 times those found in tobacco smoke.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
You make a very good case for more informative labeling of marijuana packaging.
 

thegimp03

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2004
7,420
2
81
The video is a little weak. Obama will just claim that he was not aware of that part of gun runner etc etc.

Holder might have a harder time. Time to bring Holder to the House and make him talk to congress about this and see what happens.

Sorry, but putting him in front of congress will do nothing. Even retarded baseball players get coached by their attorneys past that lot.