Obama's hypocrisy even too much for NBC to ignore.

[stormkroe]

Because there is no actual factual basis for believing that there is anything biased in this poll?

But if you feel it's a valid issue, you're welcome to raise it.

It seems biased because it shows that MSNBC, a source so left-leaning that even liberals acknowledge it as partisan hackery, scoring similarly to 'real' news sources.
The loophole in its accuracy is what ppp means by 'moderates'. If their definition of moderate is 'center, heavy-left', that poll is spot on. If 'moderate' still means 'true center' it doesnt hold water. Or beer.
At least I think that's a cut and dry of what DSF is saying. If so I agree 100%.

 

[cybrsage]

Our poll of moderates, taken exclusively at the DNC headquarters, shows that moderates prefer the DNC...

 

[Bowfinger]

It seems biased because it shows that MSNBC, a source so left-leaning that even liberals acknowledge it as partisan hackery, scoring similarly to 'real' news sources.
The loophole in its accuracy is what ppp means by 'moderates'. If their definition of moderate is 'center, heavy-left', that poll is spot on. If 'moderate' still means 'true center' it doesnt hold water. Or beer.
At least I think that's a cut and dry of what DSF is saying. If so I agree 100%.

Clarification: It's not how PPP defined "moderate", it's how respondents self-identified. One of the poll questions asked respondents to rate themselves on a five-point scale from Very Liberal to Very Conservative, with Moderate being the middle choice.

 

[Moonbeam]

Clarification: It's not how PPP defined "moderate", it's how respondents self-identified. One of the poll questions asked respondents to rate themselves on a five-point scale from Very Liberal to Very Conservative, with Moderate being the middle choice.

The relevance and importance of your point will not be recognized or acknowledged. The brain defectives have already established for themselves the truth of their thinking by virtue of the fact that they think it. This is exactly what folk who self report as conservative have scientifically been tested for and revealed as a trait and characteristic. They live in an altered reality that will not deal with facts they feel threaten their egos. They do not want to understand that the bias they despise in others is of their own creation, the result of the parts of their brains that have enlarged and shrunk because of the over emphasis of fear and the underuse of logic to moderate it's influence on their thinking by those parts of the brain that have been overstimulated or underused in them.

They see everything, do all their thinking in a defective manner from in a mental prison they cannot escape and cannot see binds them. They are clowns who act the part of respectability because to know the truth would be to become what they hate.

These are scientific facts that have been amply proven by numerous peer reviewed studies. But conservatives can't see this as facts but only as insults. There are no insults to truth but the ones that we already feel. When you argue with a conservative he thinks your point is to make him feel like shit. You need only intentionally insult one of them to reveal this reaction. They can't know what it is to not defend their ego because they run away from pain. A conservative is a coward with it comes to truth and the result is countless souls who live in unconscious misery. I could help them, but they do not want the red pill. Conservatives are defectives who can heal via humility. I wish them all the luck there is.

 

[stormkroe]

Clarification: It's not how PPP defined "moderate", it's how respondents self-identified. One of the poll questions asked respondents to rate themselves on a five-point scale from Very Liberal to Very Conservative, with Moderate being the middle choice.

It's wonderful that there was an attempt at benchmarking here (i didn't read the poll). The only problem left, then, is that people are rarely what they think they are, or else everyone would be a 'good person', everyone's child would be 'above average', etc. The only true impartiality would come from giving the polled list of partisan questions to see where they ACTUALLY sit on the line of left to right. I know people on both sides that consider themselves middle of the road yet agree with things I personally consider very extreme. For instance, I consider pres Obama to be extreme left, but the perceived middle has shifted so far left that many people would disagree with me.
It's hard to stamp the opinion out of these things.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Here's an interesting tidbit from Gallup. Democrats are nearly twice as likely to self-identify as "Moderate" than Republicans.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

 

[Moonbeam]

It's wonderful that there was an attempt at benchmarking here (i didn't read the poll). The only problem left, then, is that people are rarely what they think they are, or else everyone would be a 'good person', everyone's child would be 'above average', etc. The only true impartiality would come from giving the polled list of partisan questions to see where they ACTUALLY sit on the line of left to right. I know people on both sides that consider themselves middle of the road yet agree with things I personally consider very extreme. For instance, I consider pres Obama to be extreme left, but the perceived middle has shifted so far left that many people would disagree with me.
It's hard to stamp the opinion out of these things.

I wonder why it is then that people who purport to be left and right show up on brain scans as having different brains and differences that correspond to those differences in the brain.

 

[cybrsage]

I wonder why it is then that people who purport to be left and right show up on brain scans as having different brains and differences that correspond to those differences in the brain.

Easy, the brain damage of those on the left is easily spotted.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I wonder why it is then that people who purport to be left and right show up on brain scans as having different brains and differences that correspond to those differences in the brain.

The brains of conservatives and liberals are hard-wired in many respects. However, for one to assert they're superior to another using this "correlation" as a basis is pure Lake Wobegon effect in my opinion. Based on these structural differences, who am I to say that I'm superior to you or who are you to say you're superior to me?

Although liberals/conservatives are better/worse than the other in many aspects, it is pure fallacy to use such generaliztions to rationalize one's stereotypes. Bigotry is an ugly thing my friend.

 

[Moonbeam]

Doc Savage Fan: The brains of conservatives and liberals are hard-wired in many respects.

M: This is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. We know that among a rather small sample of students that self report as conservative or liberal, there are visible differences in the right amygdala and left cingulate between them and that the functions of these parts of the brain predict differences in behavior that conform to these functions. Conservatives, for example, are more fixated by pictures of disaster than liberals are. They are the ones with the larger right amygdala that is involved with the emotion of fear. But this doesn't mean that conservatives are born this way. They may have been treated more severely as children and learned to fear to a greater degree. Their brains may have been exercised differently and developed different muscles as it were. The brain is very plastic and all these muscles may be made to atrophy under different environment and stimulus. So we mustn't write off anybody. Let us vow to save all sentient beings.

DSF: However, for one to assert they're superior to another using this "correlation" as a basis is pure Lake Wobegon effect in my opinion. Based on these structural differences, who am I to say that I'm superior to you or who are you to say you're superior to me?

M: This is not how it works. There are simply facts about conservatives that they will not admit to having. These are facts and when you see fact as a threat the person who does this creates the feeling of inferiority and the desire to be superior. Conservative deny they distort reality to protect their egos but they do it anyway. They are the ones who turn the truth into something they feel a need to deny because it makes them look inferior. But we create what we fear and if you fear being thought of as inferior you make it look real. Cybrsage does this all the time, makes a total fool of himself because he fears being seen as a fool. All I have to do is call him one and he will go crazy trying to figure out a way to pay me back for it. Hehehe, comical in the extreme.

DSF: Although liberals/conservatives are better/worse than the other in many aspects, it is pure fallacy to use such generaliztions to rationalize one's stereotypes.

M: I do not see better or worse. I see difference within context. Team spirit is good in war, bad when you try to destroy different teams that are actually on your side. When there is nothing to fear, conservative fear become paranoia and dangerous. In war, being to trusting like a liberal can be can get you killed. Everything is context.

DSF: Bigotry is an ugly thing my friend.

M: Bigotry is the assignment of good or evil to something based on irrational inculcated and unconscious beliefs. The scientific assessment of conservatives is not bigotry, just the discovery of facts. If a conservative doesn't like the facts it's his own internal bigotry at play. Facts are neutral and have a liberal bias because liberals can deal with them without ego fear getting in the way. But a true liberal may completely lack moral intuition. I think it's what makes you and I different. You feel the deepest truth and so do I. Life is beautiful and perfect.

 

[cybrsage]

And there he is, right on cue, proving again that libs are brain damaged. Thanks for the show of support, Moonie!

 

[thraashman]

Here's an interesting tidbit from Gallup. Democrats are nearly twice as likely to self-identify as "Moderate" than Republicans.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

http://xkcd.com/1127/large/

Here's a good image for you to check out (too big to paste into the thread). It's a simple graphic that shows that far right has grown to be the largest group on the right with the center right virtually having disappeared, and the center left, middle left, and far left all being a little more balanced but with the far left being the smallest group on the left. This is in Congress fyi, but since it's the public that is voting these far right members Congress into office, it seems the right is drifting away from the center as a whole.

It should also be noted that the far right in the House is twice the size of the middle right, and the center right is almost nonexistent.

 

[monovillage]

And where did you get that .......umm.........informative link?

Voteview yes, but where did you get it?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Doc Savage Fan: The brains of conservatives and liberals are hard-wired in many respects.

M: This is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. We know that among a rather small sample of students that self report as conservative or liberal, there are visible differences in the right amygdala and left cingulate between them and that the functions of these parts of the brain predict differences in behavior that conform to these functions. Conservatives, for example, are more fixated by pictures of disaster than liberals are. They are the ones with the larger right amygdala that is involved with the emotion of fear. But this doesn't mean that conservatives are born this way. They may have been treated more severely as children and learned to fear to a greater degree. Their brains may have been exercised differently and developed different muscles as it were. The brain is very plastic and all these muscles may be made to atrophy under different environment and stimulus. So we mustn't write off anybody. Let us vow to save all sentient beings.

DSF: You're right...it is putting the cart before the horse...much more research is needed. What you say may be true, partially true, or totally false...we just don't know.

**************

DSF: However, for one to assert they're superior to another using this "correlation" as a basis is pure Lake Wobegon effect in my opinion. Based on these structural differences, who am I to say that I'm superior to you or who are you to say you're superior to me?

M: This is not how it works. There are simply facts about conservatives that they will not admit to having. These are facts and when you see fact as a threat the person who does this creates the feeling of inferiority and the desire to be superior. Conservative deny they distort reality to protect their egos but they do it anyway. They are the ones who turn the truth into something they feel a need to deny because it makes them look inferior. But we create what we fear and if you fear being thought of as inferior you make it look real. Cybrsage does this all the time, makes a total fool of himself because he fears being seen as a fool. All I have to do is call him one and he will go crazy trying to figure out a way to pay me back for it. Hehehe, comical in the extreme.

DSF: Moonie, human beings are extremely talented and "creative" when it comes to protecting their ego...this applies to liberals and conservatives alike. Why do you single out just conservatives? Bias shades perceptions...liberals have a fight/flight response as well when challenged. I don't understand why you specifically call out Cybersage as if he somehow confirms your stereotype of conservatives. This forum is rife with this type of behavior across the political spectrum. Humans are curious creatures on many levels.

**************

DSF: Although liberals/conservatives are better/worse than the other in many aspects, it is pure fallacy to use such generalizations to rationalize one's stereotypes.

M: I do not see better or worse. I see difference within context. Team spirit is good in war, bad when you try to destroy different teams that are actually on your side. When there is nothing to fear, conservative fear become paranoia and dangerous. In war, being to trusting like a liberal can be can get you killed. Everything is context.

DSF: Now it's my turn to say you’re putting the cart before the horse. You're apparently make sweeping generalizations based on extremely limited data. On what rational basis do you extrapolate so far beyond the results of a small study involving 90 students where a 75% correlation was found when comparing brain structure and political ideology?

Martha Farah (Cognitive Neuroscientist) weighed in on this study and urged extreme caution. She says we don't know what a larger right amygdala or left cingulate actually means in terms of brain function and behavior as the research is unclear and often contradictory on this point.

She said: "Who says fear is the only function of the amygdala?" Most brain regions have multiple functions. The amygdala also responds to sexually arousing images and pictures of happy faces. There is one recent study that found a correlation between the size of the amygdala and the size of people's social networks. The anterior cingulate cortex also has multiple cognitive functions.

Highly partisan liberals are effectively "cherry-picking" when choosing positive/negative attributes of each brain region and using them to make false conclusions. This distortion of science is used to reinforce their derogatory stereotype of conservatives. I don't know, but I imagine that this somehow helps them feel good about themselves (the ego rears its ugly head once again).

David Amodio (lead author of the study) himself warned against using his study to conclude that a particular political orientation is superior. The authors also concluded their study saying "Although our data do not determine whether these regions play a causal role in the formation of political attitudes, they converge with previous work to suggest a possible link between brain structure and psychological mechanisms that mediate political attitudes."

Moonie, while the study is very interesting, it does not in the least bit warrant broad generalizations or sweeping conclusions.

BTW, my answer above also applies to your statements below.

**************

DSF: Bigotry is an ugly thing my friend.

M: Bigotry is the assignment of good or evil to something based on irrational inculcated and unconscious beliefs. The scientific assessment of conservatives is not bigotry, just the discovery of facts. If a conservative doesn't like the facts it's his own internal bigotry at play. Facts are neutral and have a liberal bias because liberals can deal with them without ego fear getting in the way. But a true liberal may completely lack moral intuition. I think it's what makes you and I different. You feel the deepest truth and so do I. Life is beautiful and perfect.

DSF: Your right, the scientific assessment of conservatives (or liberals for that matter) is not bigotry. However, to distort scientific studies to rationalize and propagate divisive/insulting partisan beliefs is bigotry. As I said before, it is pure fallacy to use this study to broadly generalize in order to rationalize one's stereotypes. I like to think of people as unique and interact with them as such. Hope you feel the same my friend.

 

[piasabird]

Obamma has a news conference almost every day of the week. If a conservative did this, the media would not even show up.

 

[Matt1970]

The brains of conservatives and liberals are hard-wired in many respects. However, for one to assert they're superior to another using this "correlation" as a basis is pure Lake Wobegon effect in my opinion. Based on these structural differences, who am I to say that I'm superior to you or who are you to say you're superior to me?

Although liberals/conservatives are better/worse than the other in many aspects, it is pure fallacy to use such generaliztions to rationalize one's stereotypes. Bigotry is an ugly thing my friend.

Moonbean is further proof of evolution. He sees a study that finds Conservatives and Liberals process info differently. That then evolved to a brain defect, and then to being brain dead.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Moonbean is further proof of evolution. He sees a study that finds Conservatives and Liberals process info differently. That then evolved to a brain defect, and then to being brain dead.

Moonie is likely one of the most evolved people on the this forum...but that's not saying much!

 

[cybrsage]

Moonie is likely one of the most evolved people on the this forum...but that's not saying much!

Most evolutionary changes either give no benefit or actually reduce the abilities of the being.

 

[Moonbeam]

DSF: Moonie, human beings are extremely talented and "creative" when it comes to protecting their ego...this applies to liberals and conservatives alike. Why do you single out just conservatives? Bias shades perceptions...liberals have a fight/flight response as well when challenged.

M: But that is exactly what science shows to be untrue. Conservatives who self identify as conservatives test as doing this more. You are creating an equivalency that does not factually exist. Conservatives are demonstrably the bubble people.

DSF: I don't understand why you specifically call out Cybersage as if he somehow confirms your stereotype of conservatives. This forum is rife with this type of behavior across the political spectrum. Humans are curious creatures on many levels.

M: I say that conservatives rationalize rather than think. I say they do so to protect their egos. This is what the science has stated, that conservatives use intellect to rationalize rather than reason, to protect. Curiously, if you can't see this you are probably a conservative. When I call this being brain dead I do so for two reasons. It is what being brain dead is, not being able to rationally think. Also it sounds pejorative and when a conservative whose life it is to protect his or her ego hears it he goes straight into denial and counterattack, just as science predicts. This is why cybrsage is such a huge example. I just have to enter a thread for him to go crazy. Hehehe. You'll see it in this one and in many others.
--------------
DSF: Now it's my turn to say you’re putting the cart before the horse. You're apparently make sweeping generalizations based on extremely limited data. On what rational basis do you extrapolate so far beyond the results of a small study involving 90 students where a 75% correlation was found when comparing brain structure and political ideology?

M: I draw of data from other peer reviewed studies, not this one for that concept.

DSF: Martha Farah (Cognitive Neuroscientist) weighed in on this study and urged extreme caution. She says we don't know what a larger right amygdala or left cingulate actually means in terms of brain function and behavior as the research is unclear and often contradictory on this point.

She said: "Who says fear is the only function of the amygdala?" Most brain regions have multiple functions. The amygdala also responds to sexually arousing images and pictures of happy faces. There is one recent study that found a correlation between the size of the amygdala and the size of people's social networks. The anterior cingulate cortex also has multiple cognitive functions.

M: How do you know you are not rationalizing here rather that trusting scientific expertise? I have read as much of the science as I can and I do not see any consensus for your concerns.

DSF: Highly partisan liberals are effectively "cherry-picking" when choosing positive/negative attributes of each brain region and using them to make false conclusions. This distortion of science is used to reinforce their derogatory stereotype of conservatives. I don't know, but I imagine that this somehow helps them feel good about themselves (the ego rears its ugly head once again).

M: Pure conservative defensiveness. The science just doesn't agree. The fact is that most scientists are liberals and for a reason. Liberals reason scientifically and they test and prove their theories. They just don't create them out of thin air.

DSF: David Amodio (lead author of the study) himself warned against using his study to conclude that a particular political orientation is superior. The authors also concluded their study saying "Although our data do not determine whether these regions play a causal role in the formation of political attitudes, they converge with previous work to suggest a possible link between brain structure and psychological mechanisms that mediate political attitudes."

M: I already explained that I am not the one who is creating this superior inferior crap. That's conservative ego defensiveness that is doing that. Conservatives are trying to protect their ego reputation in their own eyes and despise themselves for doing it. There is no good or bad about conservatives or liberals outside of context. The destructive team spirit thingi in the fact of a lack of external enemies comes from other studies and analysis.

DSF: Moonie, while the study is very interesting, it does not in the least bit warrant broad generalizations or sweeping conclusions.

M: And I didn't make any. I simply suggested them to prove the validity of my claims of conservative defensiveness.
------------------------
DSF: Your right, the scientific assessment of conservatives (or liberals for that matter) is not bigotry. However, to distort scientific studies to rationalize and propagate divisive/insulting partisan beliefs is bigotry.

M: But that is what you see, not me. No such actuality is occurring. It's projection in exactly the way science predicts conservative reaction from studying it.

DSF: As I said before, it is pure fallacy to use this study to broadly generalize in order to rationalize one's stereotypes.

M: I am using many many studies to define the scientifically elucidated stereotype that actually exists about conservative brains. It isn't prejudice, it's fact. How you react to that fact is your business.

DSF: I like to think of people as unique and interact with them as such. Hope you feel the same my friend.

M: I like to know the truth, whatever it is. I believe that truth is joy and I want everybody to be happy and I can't be any other way.

 

[cybrsage]

And there is the proof the evolutionary change was detrimental.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

<snip>

Moonie I'm not going to be able to respond for a while (maybe a week or so). In the meantime, can you please edit your post and back up your assertions with links to the specific studies you're using as basis to make your point. Then perhaps we can establish a baseline of what is factual and work from there.

Are you basing much of what you're saying on books and articles by Chris Mooney? Kind of sounds like it. Anyway, please remember something...Chris Mooney is a journalist...not a neuroscientist like Martha Farah who has nothing good to say about those who try to distort science to further their agendas.

 

[cybrsage]

I don't understand why you specifically call out Cybersage as if he somehow confirms your stereotype of conservatives.

He has a big homoerotic crush on me and is still in denial about his true sexual leaning. I am not gay, and he knows this, so it causes him to try to hide his true feelings by lashing out at me. It is a pretty well understood psychological event.

He needs to just understand I have no beef with homosexuals (heh, pun intended), so he can just relax and accept his feelings.