Obama's America is Canada

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: sandorski
You should be so lucky.

The "Brain Drain" has been slowing down and only really exists due to Higher Wages in the US. The Canadian Federal Government and most Provincial Governments have eliminated Deficits and run Surplusses. Due to the Surplusses, Taxes are being Cut Annually without putting things back into Deficit. Every Canadian has HealthCare coverage for everything from First Aid to Cancer Treatment. Though the Real Estate Market has cooled, it hasn't collapsed like in the US and it wasn't because of shoddy Lending Practices. A previous Prime Minister(Chretien) saw the Iraq War for the sham that it was and refused to join in. Hockey!

The governments are running surpluses because of already obscenely high tax rates and a vast influx of money from oil. Should they really be respected for money being made on a single commodity?

Healthcare != Healthcare, just as saying that everybody in India has a roof over their head. Most of them do, but I prefer mine. I also prefer not waiting 6 months for an MRI like every Canadian has to do. Anything non-critical in Canada for healthcare _sucks_. Elective anything = vastly absurd waiting lists.

Look at Canada's private and public debt.

Compared to GDP Canada and the US actually have very similar levels of debt.

Look, it's fun to burst bubbles, so I will because I actually have lived in Canada for most of my life. The taxes are brutal. They are high. You are taxed more on your income, more on your gas, more on your purchases (15% on store goods), more on essentially everything. The healthcare that everybody has is demonstrably slower compared to privately insuranced Americans. Unemployment is higher. There is less political discourse because everybody has drunk the same kool-aid, which says entitlement and liberalism are good, so stop asking, thank you. A year of gov-paid maternity leave, who do you think pays for this?

To say that Canada is booming and the US is not is a misnomer. The US still has a much stronger economy, much more wealth. It is making terrible mistakes, but these are not because it is not Canada-like enough.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: sandorski
You should be so lucky.

The "Brain Drain" has been slowing down and only really exists due to Higher Wages in the US. The Canadian Federal Government and most Provincial Governments have eliminated Deficits and run Surplusses. Due to the Surplusses, Taxes are being Cut Annually without putting things back into Deficit. Every Canadian has HealthCare coverage for everything from First Aid to Cancer Treatment. Though the Real Estate Market has cooled, it hasn't collapsed like in the US and it wasn't because of shoddy Lending Practices. A previous Prime Minister(Chretien) saw the Iraq War for the sham that it was and refused to join in. Hockey!

The governments are running surpluses because of already obscenely high tax rates and a vast influx of money from oil. Should they really be respected for money being made on a single commodity?

Healthcare != Healthcare, just as saying that everybody in India has a roof over their head. Most of them do, but I prefer mine. I also prefer not waiting 6 months for an MRI like every Canadian has to do. Anything non-critical in Canada for healthcare _sucks_. Elective anything = vastly absurd waiting lists.

Look at Canada's private and public debt.

Compared to GDP Canada and the US actually have very similar levels of debt.

Look, it's fun to burst bubbles, so I will because I actually have lived in Canada for most of my life. The taxes are brutal. They are high. You are taxed more on your income, more on your gas, more on your purchases (15% on store goods), more on essentially everything. The healthcare that everybody has is demonstrably slower compared to privately insuranced Americans. Unemployment is higher. There is less political discourse because everybody has drunk the same kool-aid, which says entitlement and liberalism are good, so stop asking, thank you. A year of gov-paid maternity leave, who do you think pays for this?

To say that Canada is booming and the US is not is a misnomer. The US still has a much stronger economy, much more wealth. It is making terrible mistakes, but these are not because it is not Canada-like enough.

MRIs are not really Healthcare though. They are great for diagnosing, but do nothing for Healing.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: sandorski
MRIs are not really Healthcare though. They are great for diagnosing, but do nothing for Healing.

No, that's an artificial distinction. MRIs are sometimes a key part of diagnosis, and good diagnosis is needed for good treatment, and sooner is sometimes better. A better response to Skroob's rant is that "waiting 6 months for an MRI" is that it's a gross exaggeration not based on fact, and that as he can't get that and the current tax rates right, maybe his knowledge and judgment of Canada isn't as good as it is in his own mind.

http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf

To be fair, points about greater taxation are not disputed. What's disputed however are the claims that that has made Canada a socialist death-trap which the smart are dying to get out of. Au contraire, Canada also has a brain gain from the rest of the world, and even some of those who go to America for greater fame and fortune return to Canada to raise their kids because they think that it's a better place for them to do that.

 

[little elvis]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: sandorski
You should be so lucky.

The "Brain Drain" has been slowing down and only really exists due to Higher Wages in the US. The Canadian Federal Government and most Provincial Governments have eliminated Deficits and run Surplusses. Due to the Surplusses, Taxes are being Cut Annually without putting things back into Deficit. Every Canadian has HealthCare coverage for everything from First Aid to Cancer Treatment. Though the Real Estate Market has cooled, it hasn't collapsed like in the US and it wasn't because of shoddy Lending Practices. A previous Prime Minister(Chretien) saw the Iraq War for the sham that it was and refused to join in. Hockey!

The governments are running surpluses because of already obscenely high tax rates and a vast influx of money from oil. Should they really be respected for money being made on a single commodity?

Healthcare != Healthcare, just as saying that everybody in India has a roof over their head. Most of them do, but I prefer mine. I also prefer not waiting 6 months for an MRI like every Canadian has to do. Anything non-critical in Canada for healthcare _sucks_. Elective anything = vastly absurd waiting lists.

Look at Canada's private and public debt.

Compared to GDP Canada and the US actually have very similar levels of debt.

Look, it's fun to burst bubbles, so I will because I actually have lived in Canada for most of my life. The taxes are brutal. They are high. You are taxed more on your income, more on your gas, more on your purchases (15% on store goods), more on essentially everything. The healthcare that everybody has is demonstrably slower compared to privately insuranced Americans. Unemployment is higher. There is less political discourse because everybody has drunk the same kool-aid, which says entitlement and liberalism are good, so stop asking, thank you. A year of gov-paid maternity leave, who do you think pays for this?

To say that Canada is booming and the US is not is a misnomer. The US still has a much stronger economy, much more wealth. It is making terrible mistakes, but these are not because it is not Canada-like enough.

I pay only 5% tax on purchases. My provinces income tax rate is only 10%. (combined max tax rate 39% for people earning greater than $123,000) The longest I've needed to wait for a MRI was 3 weeks, and that was for a non-critical injury. My Dad, who was diagnosed with lymphoma, was in for a biopsy and began treatment within a week of positive diagnoses.

Overall taxes in Canada are higher, nobody's denying that. But you try to administer a country that, landmass wise, is the 2nd largest, and do that with a small population and population density of 3.2 people/sq.km.

wiki link

Over several decades Canada typically had a reported unemployment rate about 2% higher than the US rate. As of June 2008 the reported unemployment in the US is at 5.5 percent and at 6.1% in Canada, a 32-year low. About half of the difference is caused by the two countries measuring the unemployment rate differently. Craig Riddell, a University of British Columbia economist, found that the unemployment gap had averaged about 2% over the last several years. Riddell argues that 0.9% of the difference was caused by differing measurement systems.[18] Statistics Canada has also acknowledges this, and publishes a second unemployment rate using the same methodology as the Americans. In June 2008 this lowered the Canadian unemployment rate by 0.8% to 5.3%. June 2008 was the first time in 21 years where the reported unemployment rate has been lower than the American one.[19]

Skoorb, when is the last time you've spent any length of time in Canada?

Bah! Comparing Canada and U.S. is absolutely stupid, don't know why people insist on doing this. You don't like Canada, good, you don't have to live here. Don't like the U.S., don't live there, easy as that.

 

[NeoV]

let's leave the gun discussion out of this mess, there's plenty of mis-information in here already without talking about how meaningless Canada's gun rights are, since you can't carry them around with you........nevermind the fact that their rates of gun violence are drastically lower than ours.

This entire article is more fear-mongering from a very nervous right. Without anything substantive to go after Obama with, it's come down to this.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: sandorski
MRIs are not really Healthcare though. They are great for diagnosing, but do nothing for Healing.

OK, replace MRI with specialist physician.Median wait time for an MRI is 10 weeks. 6 months is merely what I went on from others' experiences including a guy I know with major headaches who had to wait 6 months and then 3 more for post-MRI consult with a physician. Contrast with my experience I've presented with very mild knee pain and had an MRI in one hour and 2-3 days respectively. Not only is Canada's wait list magnitudes longer, but no doctor in Canada would give me an MRI for my knee anyway (and yes in my case it saved me from, so far, unnecessary surgery); wait times are long enough that they only give when they really, really think there's a need instead of "hmm, perhaps, let's see. Well the "hmm, perhaps let's see" is why my knee is still unscared from tools entering it.

get that and the current tax rates right...To be fair, points about greater taxation are not disputed

Isn't that what you just did, though, attempted to dispute them? When I made 36k/year in Canada I paid the same overall % of taxes/withholdings as when I made twice that in the US. Can I make it any clear for you?

Bah! Comparing Canada and U.S. is absolutely stupid, don't know why people insist on doing this. You don't like Canada, good, you don't have to live here. Don't like the U.S., don't live there, easy as that.

We do it because we're in P&N I visit Canada frequently for short periods (a couple of days). My family is still there.

 

[yllus]

Haha. Pretty much everything in that article is something the U.S. should be working towards no matter who it'll make them similar to, save for the large government bureaucracy and universal health care systems (as if the U.S. would go all-public and outlaw private care like we have and are moving away from ourselves).

Help the middle class? Damn him!

Overpaid, unaccountable CEOs? Curse him!

Ardently pro-choice? It's as if he's some sort of liberal!

Senator Obama also supports same-sex unions? Awesome, he's not a hypocrite!

Calling for a multilateral foreign policy and greater respect for international law? "Talk" with America's enemies? Gee, that'd be terrible. Continuation of today's stunningly successful policies, that's the way the U.S. should go.

Nationalistic trash at its finest.

 

[little elvis]

Okay, since we are using this thread for Canada/U.S. comparison, here's a look at the Federal Tax rates for both countries....

With the Canadian Federal Government cutting Income tax rates over the last few years, I started to wonder how much, on a Federal level, Canadians are taxed compared to Americans.

Disclaimer: I've never calculated US taxes before, so, please take the calculations with a large grain of salt! And do not hesitate to correct any of the calculations.

Canadian Federal Tax rates - Canadian Income Tax Rates

Take an Single person making $100,000.
Taxable Income - $100,000 - (9,600*.15) = $98,560
Income tax paid - [((98,660 - 75,769)*.26) + 14,017] = $19942.66

Now in the United States, same single individual making $100,000
According to the following tax schedule - U.S. Federal Income Tax Rates
Taxable income - $100,000 - $5,350 = $94,650
Income taxed paid - [((94,650-77,100)*0.28)+$15698.75]=$20,612.75

To keep it simple, I didn't apply any deductions other than the standard ones allowed.

To be honest, I'm sure there is a calculation error somewhere here. I can't believe on a Federal Income tax level, a Canadian would pay slightly less than an American in a similar situation.

Feel free to look over the results and correct any errors.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Rainsford
But beyond stupid math, the whole arguments seems pretty silly. Canada isn't "bad", presenting ideas as "Canadian" isn't itself an argument.

Yes, in reality Canada is a nice place, however in the reality convervatives reside in - the place where Saddam was behind 9/11, WMDs were found and the US doesn't torture, Bush is doing a great job and evolution is bunk - Canada is a horrible place to be avoided at all costs.

The whole pathetic argument rests on lies (about freedom, meritocracy, healthcare, etc) which have been repeated so often they're mistaken for truth, even though they can be demonstrated to be false with 5 mins of googling. But like I said, reality isn't a comfortable place for PoJo & Pals.

BRAVO!!!!
Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[StageLeft]

little elvis Your numbers don't include provincial vs state and don't include other taxes like sales and also ignore the deductions which are VAST. I am dead-center middle class and deduct about $20k/year on my federal return (mortgage plus property taxes). Canadians cannot deduct those. I don't think you included social security and unemployment benefits, either. FWIW, the US social security system is a joke; it pays off terribly vs what's put in and the Canadian system to my understanding has a much, much better ROI.

A lot of this stuff is subjective, but taxes aren't. If I moved to Canada and with my job I'd end up paying more in taxes and it's not like my house would be cheaper. If a person moves between borders they get a major pay rise/hit depending on the direction. My parents in their own business get literally reamed without lube on tax issues, it's really insane to hear it.

 

[jonks]

This is not an attack on Obama. If you want to read a good attack, check out this direct quote from this NY Times article found here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07...ml?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

"Barack Obama, born in Africa, is a possibly gay Muslim racist who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance."

 

[little elvis]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
little elvis Your numbers don't include provincial vs state and don't include other taxes like sales and also ignore the deductions which are VAST. I am dead-center middle class and deduct about $20k/year on my federal return (mortgage plus property taxes). Canadians cannot deduct those. I don't think you included social security and unemployment benefits, either. FWIW, the US social security system is a joke; it pays off terribly vs what's put in and the Canadian system to my understanding has a much, much better ROI.

A lot of this stuff is subjective, but taxes aren't. If I moved to Canada and with my job I'd end up paying more in taxes and it's not like my house would be cheaper. If a person moves between borders they get a major pay rise/hit depending on the direction. My parents in their own business get literally reamed without lube on tax issues, it's really insane to hear it.

I was trying to keep the comparison simple, that's why I didn't include deductions, state taxes, etc....

I was just surprised to see how close the marginal federal tax rates for both countries were, that's why I attempted the comparison. But I do agree the U.S. allows for more deductions, mortgage and property tax being big ones. I didn't include social security benefits or unemployment benefits for either country.

As for state sales tax, out of curiosity, how much do you pay where you are?

In Alberta, there is NO provincial sales tax and so I only pay the GST, which is 5%.

As for corporate taxes..... even though they have come down over the years, they are still quite ridiculous! My parents also own a Business, and I hear about it all the time!

 

[desy]

Just like taxes vary between states so they vary between provinces in Canada
Comparisons are difficult but on average tax freedom day in the states is 3-4 wks early than in Canada, but we also health covered from that and its rare people look for private education for their kids up here. Most are public schooled.

The States IMO has the best, and the worst, Canada is more middlin but culturally very similar. I have a lot more in common with Americans than I do Europeans for sure.

 

[sammyunltd]

Originally posted by: desy
The States IMO has the best, and the worst, Canada is more middlin but culturally very similar. I have a lot more in common with Americans than I do Europeans for sure.

Fine. Just don't say that your country, crumbling under piles of deficits and debt, with a crumbling currency, high unemployment (or should I say rising, soon-to-be high), engaged in a war that will cost probably thousands of billions (and probably another), in a credit crisis that will have its spot in the history of the country, leaving hundreds of thousands if not more without a roof to cover their heads,... is the best in the world.

I'm not saying everything is bad in the USA. Just that the world has finally caught up to you. Other currencies are rapidly leapfrogging the USD. The USD may not be the international currency is 5 years. For oil, it might not be in a year or two, depending on how Ahmadinejad and Chavez are serious about their threats. The USA has practically lost its middle class, due to the lack of proper welfare programs, UHC and income tax bracket (tax the poor but not the rich).

USA is one of the poorest countries in terms of academic excellence (compared to other OECD countries). In every test or evaluation (math, science, etc.), it ranks in the last tier, whereas Canada is in the upper tier. Poor educational system for the masses, but great for the rich, since they pay $$$.

UHC. We already went through it. USA's got great diagnostic machines, but one can get healed pretty quickly in Canada too, without having to pay a fortune. Even Americans themselves go to Central American countries to get health care (true, I saw it on TV) since its cheaper than in their own country. What a shame.

Guns. Lower crime rates in Canada and in Europe. Period. I don't care about it improving in the USA. The fact that everyone can have a gun is wrong. Take a look at all the public shootings (Columbine, the sniper in Washington, 1221314325423 school and mall shootings) that occured in the last 10 years. Not everyone has the right to hold a gun in their hands (ie. deciding of the fate of the person you're pointing the gun to).

All of this is from someone that likes the States. It has always been my dream to live down there. However, I'm more than disappointed by the lack of political will to do something.

 

[desy]

I'm a Canadian
Reading comprehension FTL
Shootings? we aren't immune

OK more
School shooting
4 Cops killed

The States has 10X the population ergo 10X more shootings per capita 'its a little higher that' but you don't live in a violence free paradise, in fact home breakins and sexual assalts are higher per capita.

According to that page they should have over 70 school shooting based on our 7 per capita
Hmmm no where near 70

"A new report has given Vancouver a dubious honour: the highest break-in rate of all major Canadian and American cities, nearly four times that of New York City.

Last year, Vancouver recorded more than 1,100 break-ins per 100,000 residents while New York City had just over 300.

 

[sammyunltd]

Come on. Don't be picky. This is the only one I can recall.

On the other hand, there are many that I can recall in the USA. I just don't have the time to search. Anyway, you got my point. Kthxbye.

EDIT: Actually, here are the major school shootings. Note the incredible difference between Canada and USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

This doesn't even include shooting in malls and stuff.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Healthcare != Healthcare, just as saying that everybody in India has a roof over their head. Most of them do, but I prefer mine. I also prefer not waiting 6 months for an MRI like every Canadian has to do. Anything non-critical in Canada for healthcare _sucks_. Elective anything = vastly absurd waiting lists.

You and some of the other critics of the Canadian healthcare system should come to some consensus. Either Canadians are forced to wait months for MRIs, or they go to other countries for them.

Any Canadian can get an MRI in days. Just go across the border (most of us live near one) and pay for it in the US, just like any US citizen. Or you can wait and get it for free.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Healthcare != Healthcare, just as saying that everybody in India has a roof over their head. Most of them do, but I prefer mine. I also prefer not waiting 6 months for an MRI like every Canadian has to do. Anything non-critical in Canada for healthcare _sucks_. Elective anything = vastly absurd waiting lists.

You and some of the other critics of the Canadian healthcare system should come to some consensus. Either Canadians are forced to wait months for MRIs, or they go to other countries for them.

Any Canadian can get an MRI in days. Just go across the border (most of us live near one) and pay for it in the US, just like any US citizen. Or you can wait and get it for free.

And if the US follows Canada's system then the Canadians won't be able to come across the boarder anymore.

That is the point. Even though they have 'free' healthcare many people will still pay money in order to get better care across the boarder. But convert the US to a Canadian style system and then where do they go?

 

[AnitaPeterson]

LOL, that is the worst argument ever...

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: little elvis
In Alberta, there is NO provincial sales tax and so I only pay the GST, which is 5%.

My sales tax here is 8%. Alberta isn't really representative of Canada. There is a reason why some there want to secede (not that they ever will). It has essentially no unemployment and is awash with money. I'm from the east coast where everybody is either on unemployment insurance or underemployed

sammyunltd You're jumping to wild conclusions. The trend in the US is negative but it remains, by far, the most successful country on the planet. It's not practically lost its middle class at all.

Even Americans themselves go to Central American countries to get health care (true, I saw it on TV) since its cheaper than in their own country

Yes, and even Canadians go to the US (Itrue, I read it on the internet) when they're sick and tired of waiting months for treatment they can buy down here. It's also why private clinics are sprouting up despite laws in Canada that greatly limit what they're even able to give in regard to treatment (and somehow most Canadians approve of their government making it _illegal_ for non-government entities to give them this important treatment!).

Let's not even bring up school shootings. In the grand scheme they are responsible for a trivial amount of death in any country, they are really not warranted as something to look at in terms of overall safety for anybody.

 

[sammyunltd]

I'm just going to point out one thing. Actually, more than one thing.

HDI

Canada, 4th, 0.961 (up 2 places)
USA, 12th, 0.951 (down 4 places)

Gini

Canada 32.1 (in the top 50 countries)
USA 45 (in the bottom 50 countries)

Furthermore, I just wouldn't feel safe in the USA, from the fact that your neighbor may well be able to kill you if he gets pissed off. Furthermore, New York may have less break-ins, but look at its police corps. Instead of focusing and investing on newer infrastructures, subway lines and stations, urban projects, new schools, etc., it focuses too much on police, due to the fact that the city may or may not be safe enough (because of the fact that everybody can own a gun).

Canada is the best thing the Western world has at the moment (if not for Scandinavian countries). Low debt to GDP ratio, low private debt (we don't live on credit), thriving currency and economy, etc.

 

[Vic]

Why do you have such an irrational fear of your neighbor, that you think he might kill you at any moment if not actively deprived the means?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic
Why do you have such an irrational fear of your neighbor, that you think he might kill you at any moment if not actively deprived the means?

Question could be asked of Gun Owners.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: wwswimming
sounds like a compliment.

the Canadian government is running a fiscal surplus, and their health care
works much better than American health care.

If their healthcare works so good how come so many of them come to US for healthcare?
And how come people went to court to gain the right to private medical services?

I know this post was a while ago...but I just had to stuff PJ's nonsensical argument up his arse once again (remember you tried to pull this crap before PJ?).

If the US's healthcare works so good, how come US citizens are having to travel to Mexico and other countries for treatments?

Why are US companies actually offering incentives if their employees go out of country like paying for their airfare and waiving out of pocket expenses for care outside of the US?

A few US employers have started offering incentives in their employee benefit packages such as paying for air travel and waiving out-of-pocket expenses for care outside of the US. For example, in January 2008, Hannaford Bros., a supermarket chain based in Maine, began paying the entire medical bill for employees to travel to Singapore for hip and knee replacements, including travel for the patient and companion.[22] Other employers have been less public about their benefit changes.

Medical travel packages can integrate with all types of health insurance, including limited benefit plans,[23] preferred provider organizations and high deductible health plans. Insurers are beginning to establish partnerships with overseas health providers to treat their insureds.[24] The article cites a BlueCross BlueShield of South Carolina representative who had a colonoscopy at Bumrungrad International Medical Center in Bangkok.

According to a recent case study interview in The Health Care Globalization Report, a major employee benefits management company, Plan Benefit Services, accompanied a group of employers to Bangkok and Singapore to visit facilities. [25] This is seen as significant since up to this point, most visitors to foreign hospitals were patients, health plans and medical travel companies. According to the report, the employers attending were very close to making benefit changes that would incentivize employees to seek care overseas.

In another publication, Fast Company Magazine, [26] a much lengthier story discusses the globalization of healthcare and how an employee benefits decision-maker for the City of Myrtle Beach fully supports overseas care, having been a patient himself for a colonoscopy.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic
Why do you have such an irrational fear of your neighbor, that you think he might kill you at any moment if not actively deprived the means?

Question could be asked of Gun Owners.

No, it can't. Their position is passive and defensive. They are upholding their right to own property. Your position is active and attacking. You, sammyunltd, and the gun-grabbers are seeking to disarm the general populace for no other reason than you fear them, as evidenced by this comment:

Originally posted by: sammyunltd
Furthermore, I just wouldn't feel safe in the USA, from the fact that your neighbor may well be able to kill you if he gets pissed off.