Obama's 95% Illusion

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: OrByte
so what do economists say about the two economic plans of our candidates?

serious question.

In the long run, they are pretty much the same. Neither one addresses the coming fiscal nightmares that are SS and Medicare costs.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In any case, your ranting aside, I think we're saying the same thing about their respective tax plans...we just disagree about what is "fair". McCain's plan benefits those with plenty of money already, while Obama's helps those who could use a hand. If you think Obama's is "unfair", that's a perfectly valid opinion. But please don't hide behind the lie that McCain is doing anything but screwing the non-rich so the rich can get a bigger tax cut.

Sure. In return, please don't hide behind the fact that a refundable 'tax cut' is nothing more than a redistributionist welfare payment by a fancy name.

Unlike the spin you tried to put on this in the OP, I never made any claims about "redistributionist" payments in the Obama tax plan (also, I don't think you're allowed to make up words). I'm far from a communist, but given the incredibly rapid redistribution of wealth towards the top of the economic ladder in this country in the last few decades, I don't think some redistribution in the other direction is that bad an idea. It will still pay plenty to be rich, I don't think the government has to provide any extra incentive.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

As a single guy with no kids who's comfortably in the middle class, I can honestly say I don't really care. I like more money, who doesn't? But I'm getting by just fine, and there are a lot of folks out there who aren't...and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this whiny attitude of "I want more money, and screw the rest of the country" displayed by my financial peers.

There are certain things the government needs to do, and it takes money to do those things. And I'm fine with a disproportionate amount of that money coming from folks like me or folks who make far more money. You know why? Because that's the only way the system is going to work. I pulled my head out of my ass and decided that, while I personally might like to have way lower taxes, that's probably not a very good idea in the long run. Because liberals don't want to give up public education, and conservatives don't want to give up the defense budget...and that's fine, those things are good uses of money. But I find it totally ridiculous when people who are well off demand that we cruise the aisles of Wal-Mart, looking for poor people who "don't pay their fair share".

I pay a lot of taxes, I don't use very many government services, and I manage to not make whining about it the centerpiece of my political philosophy...it's really not that hard.

That is nice for you but I don't have any extra money to give away to others. I am just a working class stiff who is going to get creamed by Obama.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford
...
Because that's the only way the system is going to work. I pulled my head out of my ass and decided that, while I personally might like to have way lower taxes, that's probably not a very good idea in the long run. Because liberals don't want to give up public education, and conservatives don't want to give up the defense budget...and that's fine, those things are good uses of money. But I find it totally ridiculous when people who are well off demand that we cruise the aisles of Wal-Mart, looking for poor people who "don't pay their fair share".

Why is it the only way the system will work? There are 2 obvious facts here:

1. We have a deficit.
2. It's easier to collect a dollar of tax from the poor than it is from the wealthy.

The rich have most of the money. No matter how "easy" it is, you can't collect very much more tax from the poor without economically crippling them. The rich, on the other hand, are more easily able to contribute without much impact at all on their wealth. Getting it from them may be more difficult, but that's just a matter of writing the laws correctly.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

As a single guy with no kids who's comfortably in the middle class, I can honestly say I don't really care. I like more money, who doesn't? But I'm getting by just fine, and there are a lot of folks out there who aren't...and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this whiny attitude of "I want more money, and screw the rest of the country" displayed by my financial peers.

There are certain things the government needs to do, and it takes money to do those things. And I'm fine with a disproportionate amount of that money coming from folks like me or folks who make far more money. You know why? Because that's the only way the system is going to work. I pulled my head out of my ass and decided that, while I personally might like to have way lower taxes, that's probably not a very good idea in the long run. Because liberals don't want to give up public education, and conservatives don't want to give up the defense budget...and that's fine, those things are good uses of money. But I find it totally ridiculous when people who are well off demand that we cruise the aisles of Wal-Mart, looking for poor people who "don't pay their fair share".

I pay a lot of taxes, I don't use very many government services, and I manage to not make whining about it the centerpiece of my political philosophy...it's really not that hard.

That is nice for you but I don't have any extra money to give away to others. I am just a working class stiff who is going to get creamed by Obama.

I would be extremely interested in any data that backs that up. Because quite honestly, I think you've been listening to too many McCain campaign commercials.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In any case, your ranting aside, I think we're saying the same thing about their respective tax plans...we just disagree about what is "fair". McCain's plan benefits those with plenty of money already, while Obama's helps those who could use a hand. If you think Obama's is "unfair", that's a perfectly valid opinion. But please don't hide behind the lie that McCain is doing anything but screwing the non-rich so the rich can get a bigger tax cut.

Sure. In return, please don't hide behind the fact that a refundable 'tax cut' is nothing more than a redistributionist welfare payment by a fancy name.

Unlike the spin you tried to put on this in the OP, I never made any claims about "redistributionist" payments in the Obama tax plan (also, I don't think you're allowed to make up words). I'm far from a communist, but given the incredibly rapid redistribution of wealth towards the top of the economic ladder in this country in the last few decades, I don't think some redistribution in the other direction is that bad an idea. It will still pay plenty to be rich, I don't think the government has to provide any extra incentive.

Did you know income tax burden under bush has dropped like a rock on the bottom rings of our economic ladder while all signs point to higher concentrations of wealth and power at the top?

I think it will be interesting yet almost terrifying to see what kind of govt we get when the top 5% pay for it and give the other 95% a pittance to haggle over. We are moving in that direction.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In any case, your ranting aside, I think we're saying the same thing about their respective tax plans...we just disagree about what is "fair". McCain's plan benefits those with plenty of money already, while Obama's helps those who could use a hand. If you think Obama's is "unfair", that's a perfectly valid opinion. But please don't hide behind the lie that McCain is doing anything but screwing the non-rich so the rich can get a bigger tax cut.

Sure. In return, please don't hide behind the fact that a refundable 'tax cut' is nothing more than a redistributionist welfare payment by a fancy name.

Unlike the spin you tried to put on this in the OP, I never made any claims about "redistributionist" payments in the Obama tax plan (also, I don't think you're allowed to make up words). I'm far from a communist, but given the incredibly rapid redistribution of wealth towards the top of the economic ladder in this country in the last few decades, I don't think some redistribution in the other direction is that bad an idea. It will still pay plenty to be rich, I don't think the government has to provide any extra incentive.

Did you know income tax burden under bush has dropped like a rock on the bottom rings of our economic ladder while all signs point to higher concentrations of wealth and power at the top?

I think it will be interesting yet almost terrifying to see what kind of govt we get when the top 5% pay for it and give the other 95% a pittance to haggle over. We are moving in that direction.

I think you are talking about problem far removed from tax policy. Are you honestly suggesting that the rich are getting richer because the poor pay less in taxes?

 

[Moonbeam]

The rich are destroying America because they are getting ready to change which mansion in which country they are going to live in.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In any case, your ranting aside, I think we're saying the same thing about their respective tax plans...we just disagree about what is "fair". McCain's plan benefits those with plenty of money already, while Obama's helps those who could use a hand. If you think Obama's is "unfair", that's a perfectly valid opinion. But please don't hide behind the lie that McCain is doing anything but screwing the non-rich so the rich can get a bigger tax cut.

Sure. In return, please don't hide behind the fact that a refundable 'tax cut' is nothing more than a redistributionist welfare payment by a fancy name.

Unlike the spin you tried to put on this in the OP, I never made any claims about "redistributionist" payments in the Obama tax plan (also, I don't think you're allowed to make up words). I'm far from a communist, but given the incredibly rapid redistribution of wealth towards the top of the economic ladder in this country in the last few decades, I don't think some redistribution in the other direction is that bad an idea. It will still pay plenty to be rich, I don't think the government has to provide any extra incentive.

Sure you did. You made the claim that Obama's tax plan allows people to keep more of 'their own' money. When you're dealing with all these refundable credits, that's simply untrue.

The rich have most of the money. No matter how "easy" it is, you can't collect very much more tax from the poor without economically crippling them. The rich, on the other hand, are more easily able to contribute without much impact at all on their wealth. Getting it from them may be more difficult, but that's just a matter of writing the laws correctly.

Writing the tax laws correctly? Don't we have some 15000 pages of tax code, written mostly by Democrats who have controlled Congress for most of the last century?

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

As a single guy with no kids who's comfortably in the middle class, I can honestly say I don't really care. I like more money, who doesn't? But I'm getting by just fine, and there are a lot of folks out there who aren't...and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this whiny attitude of "I want more money, and screw the rest of the country" displayed by my financial peers.

There are certain things the government needs to do, and it takes money to do those things. And I'm fine with a disproportionate amount of that money coming from folks like me or folks who make far more money. You know why? Because that's the only way the system is going to work. I pulled my head out of my ass and decided that, while I personally might like to have way lower taxes, that's probably not a very good idea in the long run. Because liberals don't want to give up public education, and conservatives don't want to give up the defense budget...and that's fine, those things are good uses of money. But I find it totally ridiculous when people who are well off demand that we cruise the aisles of Wal-Mart, looking for poor people who "don't pay their fair share".

I pay a lot of taxes, I don't use very many government services, and I manage to not make whining about it the centerpiece of my political philosophy...it's really not that hard.

That is nice for you but I don't have any extra money to give away to others. I am just a working class stiff who is going to get creamed by Obama.

I would be extremely interested in any data that backs that up. Because quite honestly, I think you've been listening to too many McCain campaign commercials.

He is going to rescind the bush tax cuts and replace them with these credits. Most single working/middle class don't qualify for. I don't have kids which is 90% of the tax credits. I don't own a home to poor that is the other 5%. I am sure I make to much to qualify for the full 500 dollar tax credit. My taxes will be going up some ones will have to and it will be the single middle/working class.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In any case, your ranting aside, I think we're saying the same thing about their respective tax plans...we just disagree about what is "fair". McCain's plan benefits those with plenty of money already, while Obama's helps those who could use a hand. If you think Obama's is "unfair", that's a perfectly valid opinion. But please don't hide behind the lie that McCain is doing anything but screwing the non-rich so the rich can get a bigger tax cut.

Sure. In return, please don't hide behind the fact that a refundable 'tax cut' is nothing more than a redistributionist welfare payment by a fancy name.

Unlike the spin you tried to put on this in the OP, I never made any claims about "redistributionist" payments in the Obama tax plan (also, I don't think you're allowed to make up words). I'm far from a communist, but given the incredibly rapid redistribution of wealth towards the top of the economic ladder in this country in the last few decades, I don't think some redistribution in the other direction is that bad an idea. It will still pay plenty to be rich, I don't think the government has to provide any extra incentive.

Did you know income tax burden under bush has dropped like a rock on the bottom rings of our economic ladder while all signs point to higher concentrations of wealth and power at the top?

I think it will be interesting yet almost terrifying to see what kind of govt we get when the top 5% pay for it and give the other 95% a pittance to haggle over. We are moving in that direction.

I think you are talking about problem far removed from tax policy. Are you honestly suggesting that the rich are getting richer because the poor pay less in taxes?

I honestly dont know. I find the correlation rather surprising, yet not at the same time.

 

[Viditor]

I will say that most of the world just doesn't understand what Americans are complaining about with taxes...
After deductions, US citizens pay some of the lowest taxes in the world...by far!
For example, here in Australia, if you make over $180k you will pay 46.5% with very little in the way of deductions.
Having moved here, my taxes have almost doubled what they were in the US!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Viditor
I will say that most of the world just doesn't understand what Americans are complaining about with taxes...
After deductions, US citizens pay some of the lowest taxes in the world...by far!
For example, here in Australia, if you make over $180k you will pay 46.5% with very little in the way of deductions.
Having moved here, my taxes have almost doubled what they were in the US!

that was your choice... do you believe that you're getting back what you're paying for? Did your quality of life also double? (infrastructure, protection from criminals, healthcare, etc)

Higher taxes can only lead to larger government, and that is something I oppose completely. Unfortunately, both major parties in America seem to thrive on it, so I bet I will see our own tax rates double in my lifetime...

sad that.

 

[PolymerTim]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

As a single guy with no kids who's comfortably in the middle class, I can honestly say I don't really care. I like more money, who doesn't? But I'm getting by just fine, and there are a lot of folks out there who aren't...and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of this whiny attitude of "I want more money, and screw the rest of the country" displayed by my financial peers.

There are certain things the government needs to do, and it takes money to do those things. And I'm fine with a disproportionate amount of that money coming from folks like me or folks who make far more money. You know why? Because that's the only way the system is going to work. I pulled my head out of my ass and decided that, while I personally might like to have way lower taxes, that's probably not a very good idea in the long run. Because liberals don't want to give up public education, and conservatives don't want to give up the defense budget...and that's fine, those things are good uses of money. But I find it totally ridiculous when people who are well off demand that we cruise the aisles of Wal-Mart, looking for poor people who "don't pay their fair share".

I pay a lot of taxes, I don't use very many government services, and I manage to not make whining about it the centerpiece of my political philosophy...it's really not that hard.

That is nice for you but I don't have any extra money to give away to others. I am just a working class stiff who is going to get creamed by Obama.

I would be extremely interested in any data that backs that up. Because quite honestly, I think you've been listening to too many McCain campaign commercials.

He is going to rescind the bush tax cuts and replace them with these credits. Most single working/middle class don't qualify for. I don't have kids which is 90% of the tax credits. I don't own a home to poor that is the other 5%. I am sure I make to much to qualify for the full 500 dollar tax credit. My taxes will be going up some ones will have to and it will be the single middle/working class.

Actually, this is not true. As Rainsford alluded; be careful where you get your information. If you're interested in candidates proposed tax policies, here is a good link:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...tion_issues_matrix.cfm

In fact, in addition to all those credits you mention, Obama is still planning to keep the 2001/2003 tax credits for everyone in the 10, 15, 25, and 28 percent brackets.

As others have said, you need to be making a six-figure salary before you start making more in the McCain proposal.
Here's another good summary:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...layatab.cfm?DocID=1839

 

[HomerJS]

Of course people who are bitching about Obamas tax plan would rather keep spending 10 billion/month on the war and keep transferring money to Halliburton and other defense contractors.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: HomerJS
Of course people who are bitching about Obamas tax plan would rather keep spending 10 billion/month on the war and keep transferring money to Halliburton and other defense contractors.

Take your propaganda somewhere else; we're not buying.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: PolymerTim
Actually, this is not true. As Rainsford alluded; be careful where you get your information. If you're interested in candidates proposed tax policies, here is a good link:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...tion_issues_matrix.cfm

In fact, in addition to all those credits you mention, Obama is still planning to keep the 2001/2003 tax credits for everyone in the 10, 15, 25, and 28 percent brackets.

As others have said, you need to be making a six-figure salary before you start making more in the McCain proposal.
Here's another good summary:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...layatab.cfm?DocID=1839

Any idea where they got the numbers for their simulation? I can't find them anywhere.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Butterbean
Obama is like a mediocre community college prof who woke up and discovered he could run for president because the media would cover for him and make him seem as smart as he only sounds.

comparing a Harvard Law School and Columbia University educated, former president of the Harvard Law Review to "a mediocre community college prof" is laughable. John McCain is the near flunkie at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. you are either being sarcastic or completely unaware of reality.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

at leasst obama isn't planning on stealth raising their taxes and health care expenses like mccain is.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: winnar111

2. It's easier to collect a dollar of tax from the poor than it is from the wealthy.

um, what?

define easier, please.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: OrByte
so what do economists say about the two economic plans of our candidates?

serious question.

i think both plans make people want to gag, but obamas is generally more sane and better put together of the two.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: quest55720
With the Obama plan the single middle/working class are going to get creamed. The people with kids get almost all the tax breaks. Obama can claim all he wants he will get the rich. The rich will find ways to pay less. The burden will be on the rest of us with out kids who can't afford a team of lawyers and accountants.

that is completely false, it is John McCains tax plan which increases exemptions for families with children and Barack Obamas tax plan that offers a $500 credit to those who work.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: winnar111

2. It's easier to collect a dollar of tax from the poor than it is from the wealthy.

um, what?

define easier, please.

http://www.fairtaxes4all.org/loopholes.html

The IRS estimates that wage-earning Americans, whose taxes are regularly reported and subject to withholding, pay 99 percent of what they owe. But business owners, many of whom underreport business income, will pay less than half of what they owe, according to government estimates, and investors will fail to pay billions more, due to underreported capital gains.

Part of this revolves around the obvious fact that the wealthy/business people have the resources to afford tax experts.

 

[Ozoned]

You can cut taxes on people that pay no income tax. Under the current tax structure, you can receive a refund for your child tax credit, even if you do not have any income tax withheld. The refund is capped up to the amount of social security tax that you paid.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Hey, I don't know about you, but I pay a non-negative amount of taxes. I make decent money, I contribute to society, and I'd like to send less of what I make to the IRS each year, and with Obama's plan I would be able to do that better than with McCain's plan. Now if that means someone who makes a few million per year has to pay a little more, I can live with that. And if someone who makes less than me gets a bigger break, I can live with that too...they probably need it more than I do. They certainly need it more than some CEO needs to buy 3 or 4 more cars to play around with.

In other words: as long as someone else is getting screwed I don't care.

Under Obama as many as 40% of the country will pay NO income tax at all. And many of them will actually get a check back from IRS.

We cannot continue down a road that takes more and more people off the tax rolls. At one point those people are going to start to think that they can vote themselves more benefits without worrying about who pays for them.