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Obamacare's latest unintended victims: Firefighters

rudeguy

Lifer
http://medcitynews.com/2013/12/obamacare-fire-unintended-effect-volunteer-firefighters/

SCRANTON-- A local congressman wants answers on whether volunteer firefighting companies could be unintentionally swept into the national health care reform law championed by President Barack Obama.

The International Association of Fire Chiefs has asked the Internal Revenue Service, which has partial oversight of the law, to clarify if current IRS treatment of volunteer firefighters as employees means their hose companies or towns must offer health insurance coverage or pay a penalty if they don't.

The organization representing the fire chiefs has been working on the issue with the IRS and White House for months.

"It could be a huge deal," said U.S. Rep. Lou Barletta, R-11, Hazleton, who is seeking clarification from the IRS. "In Pennsylvania, 97 percent of fire departments are fully or mostly volunteer firefighters. It's the fourth highest amount in the country."

So far, the IRS hasn't decided what to do.

Efforts to reach spokesmen for the IRS were unsuccessful.

Under the fire chiefs' organization's interpretation, the concern goes like this:

The health care reform law, known officially as the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and derisively by Republicans as Obamacare, requires employers with 50 or more full-time employees to offer health insurance. Companies with fewer than 50 employees do not have to offer insurance. Full-time employees are defined as an employee who works 30 or more hours a week.

Such employers who don't offer health insurance must pay fines.

The requirement is complicated by differing interpretations about the status of volunteer firefighters within the federal government. The Department of Labor, according to the fire chiefs group, classifies most volunteers as non-employees, but the IRS considers all volunteer firefighters and emergency medical personnel to be employees of their departments.

"If the IRS classifies volunteer firefighters and emergency medical personnel as employees in their final rule, fire departments may be unintentionally forced to comply with requirements that could force them to curtail their emergency response activities or close entirely," the chiefs' group says on its website.

Mr. Barletta said the problem could be even more complicated if the IRS counts volunteer hose companies as one department in towns with more than one hose company or as part of a town's workforce. Definitions like that could bump the total numbers beyond the 50-employee threshold and require offering coverage that towns or hose companies cannot afford, he said. The IRS must also define what sort of volunteer duty counts toward the 30-hour-a-week limit.

Mr. Barletta wrote a letter urging the IRS to write a rule that labels volunteer firefighters as non-employees.

"There needs to be clarification because this could be serious," he said. "That's all we're looking at and that we haven't heard anything concerns me."

Bruce Moeller, chairman of a task force for the fire chiefs group and head of safety and emergency services for Pinellas County, Fla., said the problem arose because the IRS already considers volunteers as employees and requires all departments to issue W-2 forms for any sort of compensation for volunteers. He's sure Congress did not intend to require volunteer fire departments to offer health insurance when it passed the health law.

"Welcome to federal regulations," he said. "It's one of those quirks."

Local officials in volunteer departments said they had not heard of the issue or not heard much about it.

One local fire chief said it never occurred to him that volunteers could be considered employees.

Bill White, a volunteer firefighter for 50 years and leader of the Dive Rescue Specialists in Scott Twp., said an IRS rule requiring offering volunteers health insurance would create an uproar.

"If they push that, that would be just the final nail in the coffin for Obamacare for everybody," he said. "I'm not terribly concerned about it."

He's not concerned because the harm would be too great.

"We're barely paying the bills that we have now," Mr. White said.

John Cudo, a volunteer firefighter and public works department laborer in Taylor and an official with the Northeastern Pennsylvania Volunteer Fireman's Federation, said the possibility caught him by surprise when he heard about it during a firefighters' convention in September. A requirement like that could hurt, but he was unconcerned it will happen.

"We're not employees," he said.



Read more: http://medcitynews.com/2013/12/obam...-effect-volunteer-firefighters/#ixzz2mjcIY2CI



If this law is so big (what, 10,000 pages?) how can so many "unintended" things keep happening?
 
Even if they are treated as employees, they will be offered health insurance. I don't see how that makes them victims.
 
Even if they are treated as employees, they will be offered health insurance. I don't see how that makes them victims.

no, they will be told that they are fired, or they no longer get any compensation for their work due to the cost of healthcare. and cities will pare down the force as much as possible, affecting response times and service.


small city governments can't rack up debt like the feds.
 
http://medcitynews.com/2013/12/obamacare-fire-unintended-effect-volunteer-firefighters/





If this law is so big (what, 10,000 pages?) how can so many "unintended" things keep happening?
The reason these things keep happening is that nobody read it. Who drafted it is open for argument. Some say staffers, some say the insurance companies, some say lobbyists. Nobody wants to take credit for it. There's a reason for that. It had to be passed so that we could find out what's in it. Nobody in DC took the time afterwards to find out.

As Rep. Conyers said, “I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Rep. John Conyers. “What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?"
 
no, they will be told that they are fired, or they no longer get any compensation for their work due to the cost of healthcare. and cities will pare down the force as much as possible, affecting response times and service.


small city governments can't rack up debt like the feds.

What don't we understand about the definition of volunteer.
 
What don't we understand about the definition of volunteer.


in the context of a fire dept. it usually means part time, and on call. They usually get paid a little bit per call or sometimes for doing maintenance and training. Many of them have regular jobs and miss work for some of the calls and training.

or would you rather have whomever shows up that day come to put out your house? with no training or backing by the city?
 
Even if they are treated as employees, they will be offered health insurance. I don't see how that makes them victims.

Come on man, you're smarter than that.

Little counties all over the USA that have volunteer fire depts would have to now provide HI to the volunteers. Since real estate prices collapsed they are already facing severe hardship. This would make the entire (nationwide) system unworkable.

Fern
 
What don't we understand about the definition of volunteer.

Tax law, obviously.

I live in a place where the fire dept is volunteer. We pay real estate taxes to fund the volunteer fire dept. Any benefit the volunteer gets, ANY BENEFIT, makes them an employee under IRS rules. The benefit could be a meal, firefighting clothes, gas reimbursement etc. However, they do not get a salary here.

Fern
 
in the context of a fire dept. it usually means part time, and on call. They usually get paid a little bit per call or sometimes for doing maintenance and training. Many of them have regular jobs and miss work for some of the calls and training.

or would you rather have whomever shows up that day come to put out your house? with no training or backing by the city?

But no one cares about that. What they will however is that communities will be unable to afford the "free" firefighters. No, that's not quite right as some notables could justify a town burning down or failing that blaming anyone or anything else.
 
This only applies to employees who work more than 30 hours a week at the job.
If someone volunteers more than 30 hrs a week, it's their job, and they should get health insurance, especially firefighters, who put their health on the line as part of their job. Your real estate taxes may go up to provide your first responders with health insurance. I sympathize, but not too much.
 
This only applies to employees who work more than 30 hours a week at the job.
If someone volunteers more than 30 hrs a week, it's their job, and they should get health insurance, especially firefighters, who put their health on the line as part of their job. Your real estate taxes may go up to provide your first responders with health insurance. I sympathize, but not too much.

Is being on call working? What about being at the fire house? What defines work?
 
But no one cares about that. What they will however is that communities will be unable to afford the "free" firefighters. No, that's not quite right as some notables could justify a town burning down or failing that blaming anyone or anything else.

Its a mess!

I still don't get how this law is written so poorly on accident. I mean...did anyone read the thing before they voted on it? Did the people writing it even read the whole thing?

Its our health care. Our kids' health care. Our economy. Our rights. Our freedom. All of it put in jeopardy because people wanted this thing passed. Who cares whats in it? Just pass the thing!
 
Is being on call working? What about being at the fire house? What defines work?

I can't tell if you're being serious here. Work in a firehouse, I imagine, still means waiting for things to happen and I know for a fact you get paid for that (at least here in CA). I'm not sure what the controversy is here if this applies to volunteer firefighters...who work 30 hours. Like he said, you're basically an employee if you work 30 hours per week, so of course you should be offered health insurance. Especially a volunteer firefighter of all professions, come on.
 
This only applies to employees who work more than 30 hours a week at the job.
If someone volunteers more than 30 hrs a week, it's their job, and they should get health insurance, especially firefighters, who put their health on the line as part of their job. Your real estate taxes may go up to provide your first responders with health insurance. I sympathize, but not too much.

A job is what one does to earn ones livelihood. People are giving significant amounts of their time with little or no compensation because that is what their community can afford. So you redefine what a job is to force what wasn't asked for and create a burden that isn't necessary or even affordable to many communities {
(This is Louisiana after all). That can very well lead to cutbacks and a consequent threat. Your response? Let them eat cake.

Hopefully the IRS has more sense.
 
Its a mess!

I still don't get how this law is written so poorly on accident. I mean...did anyone read the thing before they voted on it? Did the people writing it even read the whole thing?

Its our health care. Our kids' health care. Our economy. Our rights. Our freedom. All of it put in jeopardy because people wanted this thing passed. Who cares whats in it? Just pass the thing!
They wrote an enormous, sweeping bill when they needed to identify a core problem or problems with our health care system and deal with that. They then could have added to, or amended as necessary over time correcting and changing as needed. This is a common sense approach to an issue that will affect 300+ million people. They chose not to approach it this way and they deserve every single iota of blame that is heaped upon them.

It would have been impossible to anticipate everything. It should have been entirely possible to anticipate a whole lot. But in their typical arrogant fashion, they got all caught up in how smart they feel they are and we got what we got.

Just look at this thread. We've got the progs in here making declarations that have no basis in reality. They think they know it all and they are too arrogant to admit otherwise. How things happen in their world, their sphere of life is how they feel it happens everywhere. To cite an example, from time to time we get a prog telling us how we all need to ditch our SUV's or start taking mass transit etc. They live in the city and have no concept of living 35 to 50 miles from where they work. No concept of having to drive 20 miles to the grocery store. No thought that other people may need to carry four or more passengers when heading out some where. Their's is a one size fits all world and they know what is best for us.

Keep them in office and it will only get worse. Guaranteed.
 
http://medcitynews.com/2013/12/obamacare-fire-unintended-effect-volunteer-firefighters/

If this law is so big (what, 10,000 pages?) how can so many "unintended" things keep happening?

This is probably why there are so many unintended consequences. No one probably understands the entirety of it, and as such you end up with consequences you don't anticipate. "I thought that was in Bob's part". "Bill's the one that put that in". Canada's Health Care Act is 14 pages of legal text. Why on earth is everything we do so bloated.
 
Its a mess!

I still don't get how this law is written so poorly on accident. I mean...did anyone read the thing before they voted on it? Did the people writing it even read the whole thing?

Its our health care. Our kids' health care. Our economy. Our rights. Our freedom. All of it put in jeopardy because people wanted this thing passed. Who cares whats in it? Just pass the thing!
For one thing, poorly written legislation confers power. We can interpret this several ways - so you'd better get your donations in, otherwise we'll use it to crush you while your competition gets waivers and/or favorable interpretations. For another, there was a rush to get this passed before the Dems lost their historic supermajority, so they really did care more about passing the act (and empowering the bureaucracy) than what specifically was in it.

Hey, at least this one was written and they had time to read it, if they cared to do so. One of the bills being voted in Pelosi's House was challenged by the Pubbies because federal law requires that a copy be in the House when it is debated and voted, and upon challenge they discovered that the bill had not in fact been finished. Pelosi had to extend the voting for hours while aides desperately pulled together the various sections into something they could represent as the bill.

Watching law be made is like watching sausage being made - if sausage makers were diarrhea-plagued lepers who worked squatting naked in the midst of their meat scraps.
 
oh great. what a fucking mess.

I hope they do something. as a few said this is just going to shut down many fire departments.
 
Uhmm the employer mandate is being delayed and will probably never be implemented.

I'm sure the rest of the country will sleep easy knowing that you have predicted this. I'm surprised the tv hasn't been interrupted with an urgent message about your prediction.

Normal people worry about what the law says, not what the messiah Obama says it says.
 
oh great. what a fucking mess.

I hope they do something. as a few said this is just going to shut down many fire departments.

Right!

I'm over the partisan crap. If this thing isn't going away...fix it! And not a temporary band aid. Fix it right!
 
"If they push that, that would be just the final nail in the coffin for Obamacare for everybody," he said. "I'm not terribly concerned about it."

He's not concerned because the harm would be too great.

"We're barely paying the bills that we have now," Mr. White said.

So they're a big group with a lot of lobbying power. They are comfortable because even if the law is legally determined to DESTROY them, they have enough clout in Washington to get the law ignored in personal favor of them.

My problem with all of this is ALL the other groups who don't get to pay off our ruling class to ensure their continued survival against unjust and unsurvivable bureaucracy.

These guys are too big to fail, and they are smug cause they know it.
What about the rest of us?
 
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