Obamacare worth the price

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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0
The sun is out in Washington, DC today. It filters through the blinds and warms my breakfast table. Laid out are the knives and forks and spoons, set just so. The napkin is folded in the shape of a tricome. I see scones and croissents are on the menu.

I am not making my own favored espresso today. Friends are in town and they insist on serving me up a boule or two of the café noisette they themselves prefer. In this way they want to remind me of an affaire de coeur I had with a mutual friend that had its start at Verlet (256, rue Saint-Honoré, 75001.) So the coffee is from there, as are the thoughts.

The "progressive" Left in the United States is enamored with government, with the idea of a permanent and massive bureaucracy and with the attendant cloying embrace, in much the same way any innocent embarks on a romantic adventure.

The roué in this case is the handsome, well spoken radical in the White House (Yes, he is Black! A professore! How deliciously déclassé!) who has charmed the chattering classes and enticed them to give it up for history and posterity. Not a word of protestation crosses their lips, they surrendered completely.

The ideal to have a free nation, one unbeholden to onerous government, that is so old fashioned, so Continental Congress, so Revolutionary War, just so not cool.

Wouldn't it really be oh so much better to have what the Founders rejected, governmental royalty, l'État, c'est moi?

What better way to demonstrate the power of the State, to dominate the masses than by doling out their access to health care? After all, when you have their health, you have everything!

Times are tough? Ha! Let them eat cake.

Obamacare worth the price to Democrats

By MARK STEYN
Syndicated columnist

The Orange County Register
Published: March 5, 2010

So there was President Obama, giving his bazillionth speech on health care, droning yet again that "now is the hour when we must seize the moment," the same moment he's been seizing every day of the week for the past year, only this time his genius photo-op guys thought it would look good to have him surrounded by men in white coats.

Why is he doing this? Why let "health" "care" "reform" stagger on like the rotting husk in a low-grade creature feature who refuses to stay dead no matter how many stakes you pound through his chest?

Because it's worth it. Big time. I've been saying in this space for two years that the governmentalization of health care is the fastest way to a permanent left-of-center political culture. It redefines the relationship between the citizen and the state in fundamental ways that make limited government all but impossible. In most of the rest of the Western world, there are still nominally "conservative" parties, and they even win elections occasionally, but not to any great effect (Let's not forget that Jacques Chirac was, in French terms, a "conservative").

The result is a kind of two-party one-party state: Right-of-center parties will once in a while be in office, but never in power, merely presiding over vast left-wing bureaucracies that cruise on regardless.

Republicans seem to have difficulty grasping this basic dynamic. Less than three months ago, they were stunned at the way the Democrats managed to get 60 senators to vote for the health bill. Then Scott Brown took them back down to 59, and Republicans were again stunned to find the Dems talking about ramming this thing into law through the parliamentary device of "reconciliation." And, when polls showed an ever larger number of Americans ever more opposed to Obamacare (by margins approaching three-to-one), Republicans were further stunned to discover that, in order to advance "reconciliation," Democrat reconsiglieres had apparently been offering (illegally) various cosy Big Government sinecures to swing-state congressmen in order to induce them to climb into the cockpit for the kamikaze raid to push the bill through. The Democrats understand that politics is not just about Tuesday evenings every other November, but about everything else, too.

A year or two back, when the Canadian Islamic Congress attempted to criminalize my writing north of the border by taking me to the Canadian "Human Rights" Commission, a number of outraged American readers wrote to me, saying, "You need to start kicking up a fuss about this, Steyn, and then maybe Canadians will get mad and elect a conservative government that will end this nonsense."

Makes perfect sense. Except that Canada already has a Conservative government under a Conservative prime minister, and the very head of the "human rights" commission investigating me was herself the Conservative appointee of a Conservative minister of justice. Makes no difference.

Once the state swells to a certain size, the people available to fill the ever-expanding number of government jobs will be statists – sometimes hard-core Marxist statists, sometimes social-engineering multiculti statists, sometimes fluffily "compassionate" statists, but always statists. The short history of the post-war welfare state is that you don't need a president-for-life if you've got a bureaucracy-for-life: The people can elect "conservatives," as the Germans have done and the British are about to do, and the Left is mostly relaxed about it because, in all but exceptional cases (Thatcher), they fulfill the same function in the system as the first-year boys at wintry English boarding schools who, for tuppence-ha'penny or some such, would agree to go and warm the seat in the unheated lavatories until the prefects strolled in and took their rightful place.

Republicans are good at keeping the seat warm. A bigtime GOP consultant was on TV, crowing that Republicans wanted the Dems to pass Obamacare because it's so unpopular it will guarantee a GOP sweep in November.

OK, then what? You'll roll it back – like you've rolled back all those other unsustainable entitlements premised on cobwebbed actuarial tables from 80 years ago? Like you've undone the federal Department of Education and of Energy and all the other nickel'n'dime novelties of even a universally reviled one-term loser like Jimmy Carter? Andrew McCarthy concluded a shrewd analysis of the political realities thus:

"Health care is a loser for the Left only if the Right has the steel to undo it. The Left is banking on an absence of steel. Why is that a bad bet?"

Indeed. Look at it from the Dems' point of view. You pass Obamacare. You lose the 2010 election, which gives the GOP co-ownership of an awkward couple of years. And you come back in 2012 to find your health care apparatus is still in place, a fetid behemoth of toxic pustules oozing all over the basement, and, simply through the natural processes of government, already bigger and more expensive and more bureaucratic than it was when you passed it two years earlier. That's a huge prize, and well worth a midterm timeout.

I've been bandying comparisons with Britain and France, but that hardly begins to convey the scale of it. Obamacare represents the government annexation of "one-sixth of the U.S. economy" – i.e., the equivalent of the entire British or French economy, or the entire Indian economy twice over. Nobody has ever attempted this level of centralized planning for an advanced society of 300 million people. Even the control-freaks of the European Union have never tried to impose a unitary "comprehensive" health care system from Galway to Greece. The Soviet Union did, of course, and we know how that worked out.

This "reform" is not about health care, and certainly not about "controlling costs." As with Medicare, it "controls" costs by declining to acknowledge them, or pay them. Dr. William Schreiber of North Syracuse, N.Y., told CNN that he sees 120 patients per week – about 30 percent on Medicare, 65 private on private insurance plans whose payments take into account the Medicare reimbursement rates, and about 5 percent who do it the old-fashioned way and write a check. He calculates that, under Obamacare, for every $5 he now makes, he'll get $2 in the future. Which suggests now would be a good time to retrain as a realtor or accountant, or the night clerk at the convenience store. Yet Congresswoman Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y., justifies her support for Obamacare this way:

"I even had one constituent – you will not believe this, and I know you won't, but it's true – her sister died. This poor woman had no dentures. She wore her dead sister's teeth."

Is the problem of second-hand teeth a particular problem in this corner of New York? I haven't noticed an epidemic of ill-fitting dentures on recent visits to the Empire State. George Washington had wooden teeth, but, presumably, these days the Sierra Club would object to the clear-cutting. Yet, even granting Congresswoman Slaughter the benefit of the doubt, is annexing the equivalent of a G7 economy the solution to what would seem to be the statistically unrepresentative problem of her constituent's ill-fitting choppers? Is it worth reducing the next generation of Americans to indentured servitude to pay for this poor New Yorker's dentured servitude?

Yes. Because government health care is not about health care, it's about government. Once you look at it that way, what the Dems are doing makes perfect sense. For them.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/health-237719-care-government.html
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
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^^^What a hack opinion piece...Oh Nos!!! the evil socialists want to take control of everything...too bad the insurance companies have no compassion (except to their investors), but they are nothing but profit driven, why should they give a rat's ass if someone has an existing condition?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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^^^What a hack opinion piece...Oh Nos!!! the evil socialists want to take control of everything...too bad the insurance companies have no compassion (except to their investors), but they are nothing but profit driven, why should they give a rat's ass if someone has an existing condition?

Do you honestly believe that a government bureaucrat, whose decision you cannot appeal (ever try to appeal the rule of your local DMV bureaucrat?) will be more sympathetic?

In a free economy, you can choose an alternative provider for all products and services, and your power stems from that freedom to choose. The less free the economy, the more regulated it is, the less freedom you have to make a choice and the less power and the less freedom you as an individual have.

Imagine for a moment the life you are now choosing, a life without choice... or the power to control you own life. What a Brave New World that will be!
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,596
6,715
126
Do you honestly believe that a government bureaucrat, whose decision you cannot appeal (ever try to appeal the rule of your local DMV bureaucrat?) will be more sympathetic?

In a free economy, you can choose an alternative provider for all products and services, and your power stems from that freedom to choose. The less free the economy, the more regulated it is, the less freedom you have to make a choice and the less power and the less freedom you as an individual have.

Imagine for a moment the life you are now choosing, a life without choice... or the power to control you own life.

Nobody choose anything but what they have to choose. Your delusion is that is that you think you choose what you want rather than what you have to.

You are nothing but a program that chooses the bars of its cage.

The only free people are those who have died to themselves, the utterly humbled.

You are an egotist and an exhibitionist of fancy and flowery language, a peacock parading for peahens. But in the toilet you smell like anybody else.
 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
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Do you honestly believe that a government bureaucrat, whose decision you cannot appeal (ever try to appeal the rule of your local DMV bureaucrat?) will be more sympathetic?

And what decisions are government bureaucrats going to be making about my health care under the current proposals?

In a free economy, you can choose an alternative provider for all products and services, and your power stems from that freedom to choose. The less free the economy, the more regulated it is, the less freedom you have to make a choice and the less power and the less freedom you as an individual have.

So you want no regulations in our economy at all because they "restrict our freedom"?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,596
6,715
126
Nobody choose anything but what they have to choose. Your delusion is that is that you think you choose what you want rather than what you have to.

You are nothing but a program that chooses the bars of its cage.

The only free people are those who have died to themselves, the utterly humbled.

You are an egotist and an exhibitionist of fancy and flowery language, a peacock parading for peahens. But in the toilet you smell like anybody else.

You envious little weasel, Moonbeam. You're just jealous of his mastery of the bon ton literary style and the fact you can't keep up. You should maybe take a dose of your own ideas and try a little humility.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Do you honestly believe that a government bureaucrat, whose decision you cannot appeal (ever try to appeal the rule of your local DMV bureaucrat?) will be more sympathetic?

In a free economy, you can choose an alternative provider for all products and services, and your power stems from that freedom to choose. The less free the economy, the more regulated it is, the less freedom you have to make a choice and the less power and the less freedom you as an individual have.

Imagine for a moment the life you are now choosing, a life without choice... or the power to control you own life. What a Brave New World that will be!

What government bureaucrat are you talking about? The one that enforces insurance regulations? I think maybe you have no idea what health insurance reform actually entails.


On the free market, someone who isn't profitable to the insurance companies isn't insured.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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0
Nobody choose anything but what they have to choose. Your delusion is that is that you think you choose what you want rather than what you have to.

You are nothing but a program that chooses the bars of its cage.

The only free people are those who have died to themselves, the utterly humbled.

You are an egotist and an exhibitionist of fancy and flowery language, a peacock parading for peahens. But in the toilet you smell like anybody else.

The first choice is always whether to live. We have not been given the choice to come into existence, that was made by our parents or, soon, by the creche managers of Hatcheries and Conditioning. They could have chosen to abort you as others have hundreds of millions, but you were given a chance to live, even if just to serve their will or that of the State.

The option to continue to live is yours alone, thus far. Should you choose to end your life, you will, of course, be prosecuted for actions inimical to the State. Should you succeed in ending your own life you will be tried in absentia, convicted and then disappeared.

Suppose you choose to live. You now have to decide how to live. Do you live within the boundaries set by family circumstances, by the State, or by some other criterion?

A free man may choose to eschew the trappings of society and modernity, but is hard put to remove himself from the demands of respiration, hunger and thirst and still survive. Once those needs are met, however, and assuming he accepts solitude, all else is optional. But that is a free man.

For the most part we are not free. Our boundaries have been set in rearing and will be more strictly set yet the more we move toward State control.

Unlike many, I have few voluntary boundaries. I function successfully in many environments, I explore the worlds that are available to me, but in few ways am I vested in their precepts. While a world filled with such as I would be anarchic and unsustainable, I move through the corridors beneficent for their existence.

You would be surprised at how little I revel in myself. I indulge in myself much less than you in your own narcissism, for example.

True, I have learned several languages and even more how to communicate with and without spoken and written language, first by necessity, then by choice, the better to understand others, the better for those who care to understand me. Few care, but those that do, matter. It is a validation of my ego, but I extend the same courtesy.

As to parading for peahens (and how kind of you to appropriate my own use of that descriptive term!) it is a survival trait. One does not attract the attractive but through preening and mirroring. You should know that by now!

As to the comparative odor of my excrement, I would venture that mine is splendid, while yours is not. Not that I have the slightest interest in proving that.

:awe:
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
No doubt about it this bill is an Abortion, it's written by big pharma and insurance companies. I mentioned years ago here, in USA, that any bill by an American congress would be a poison pill to take UHC off the table for a century. So don't you worry Mr. Stein - as drug costs skyrocket, premiums triple, and it costs Gov't 1 Trillion a year for uninsured or those who can't afford triple premiums anymore people will be rioting to go back to the good ole days.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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The beautiful part of it is people like you being miserable with it, hopefully enough so to leave. :thumbsup:

Ah, but though I do have an option to opt out, I choose to stay!

How positively revolutionary someone like I can be! I burrow from within, even as I walk invited through the halls of power. I can be subtle or I can be bold, I am both highly visible and invisible.

My opinions are not important in and of themselves, but catch the ear of one who preens in their assumption of importance and they are repeated to effect.

That is more beautiful than the hundreds of thousands of words you post, convincing no one and impressing fewer.

:awe:
 
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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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You envious little weasel, Moonbeam. You're just jealous of his mastery of the bon ton literary style and the fact you can't keep up. You should maybe take a dose of your own ideas and try a little humility.

The Moonbeam is not a weasel. The Moonbeam lives a life of reflection. But for reflection to occur the Moonbeam must still find a source of light.

The use of the bon mot to reflect the bon ton is an amusement and beneath the dignity of a bodhisatta, much less a bodhisattva.
 
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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
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What government bureaucrat are you talking about? The one that enforces insurance regulations? I think maybe you have no idea what health insurance reform actually entails.

On the free market, someone who isn't profitable to the insurance companies isn't insured.

You obviously have little conscious contact with The Bureaucrat. The nameless, faceless, soulless being which controls your life and your slim chance at happiness like a minor deity. Characterized by pettiness and totally lacking in power other than that which s/he has over you.

A Bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom Bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a Bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures? -- Cicero
The Rules of Bureaucracy


  • Rule #O: "The Rules of Bureaucracy are mutable, non-canonical, non-ordinal, and contradictory, except in the cases where they are not."
  • Rule #1: "Document everything you do; if you didn't write it down, it didn't happen."
  • Rule #2 [The Sixty Minutes Rule]: "Never do anything that would cause Ed Bradley, Mike Wallace, Morley Safer, Steve Croft, Leslie Stahl, or even Andy Rooney to pursue you down a hallway with a camera crew."
  • Rule #3: "Nothing Simple Is Ever Easy"
  • Rule #4: "It's about the money; follow the money."
  • Rule #5: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
  • Rule #6: "Politics is the enemy of good government."
  • Rule #7: "The biggest detriment to public service is the public."
  • Rule #8: "The second biggest detriment to public service is the service."
  • Rule #9: "There's a reason; there's ALWAYS a reason."
  • Rule #10: "The Law is a harsh mistress: The rigorous and exacting application of which can benefit of society when used correctly to advance good policy and block bad, and be the bane of society when used incorrectly to advance bad policy and block good."
  • Rule #11: "Public service often involves waking up in the morning, opening up the newspaper, and discovering that someone, somewhere out there thinks that you're a dickhead."
  • Rule #12: "No one really knows what you do."
  • Rule #13 [Luke's Rule]: "No one ever acts like the bastard they really are."
  • Rule #14: "Bureaucracy endures."
  • Rule #15: "The longer you work in bureaucracy, the more Catch-22 resembles non-fiction."
  • Rule #16: "Politicians are not smarter than you."
  • Rule #18: "Money is not created equal."
  • Rule #19: "Mediocrity is normalcy."
  • Rule #17: "Within any bureaucratic structure, resources (e.g. people, money, knowledge, etc.) are not distributed uniformly."
  • Rule #20: "Don't assume a fiduciary liability without a committed resource allocation."
  • Rule #21: "If you do your job and obey the law, they can't reasonably fire you."
  • Rule #22: "The Budget will always be wrong."
  • Rule #23: "Always sign in blue."
  • Rule #24: "A Bureaucrat must be able to explain and justify his/her actions to laymen without resorting to the phrase 'because the Rules say so.'"
  • Rule #25: "Never voluntarily relinquish control of an original document."
  • Rule #26: "Sometimes you just have to say 'Screw the rules'"
  • Rule #27: "Change sucks."
  • Rule #28: "Sometimes the answer is 'No.'"
  • Rule #29: "It is very easy to make difficult decisions when no one has a clue what's going on."
  • Rule #30: "If you hang around long enough, eventually you will become an expert in something."
  • Rule #31: "Data, technology, and automatic processes can never completely supplant human interaction."
  • Rule #32: "Cover thine own ass."
  • Rule #33: "It's not real until it has its own acronym."
  • Rule #34:There is nothing more dangerous than an elected, resourceful idiot.
  • Rule #35: It will always take longer than expected.
  • Rule #36: Coming Soon...
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcowen674
The beautiful part of it is people like you being miserable with it, hopefully enough so to leave. :thumbsup:

Then why all the whining and crying like a baby?

Who is whining and crying? I am laughing all the way to the bank!

:awe:
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
No doubt about it this bill is an Abortion, it's written by big pharma and insurance companies. I mentioned years ago here, in USA, that any bill by an American congress would be a poison pill to take UHC off the table for a century. So don't you worry Mr. Stein - as drug costs skyrocket, premiums triple, and it costs Gov't 1 Trillion a year for uninsured or those who can't afford triple premiums anymore people will be rioting to go back to the good ole days.

That is just the point. The revolutionary strategy being followed by Obama et al is to overload the legitimate social protection and monetary systems to the point they collapse and bring about a replacement utopia, better known as the Brave New World.

Cloward-Piven Strategy

God help us all.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,553
9,791
136
Imagine for a moment the life you are now choosing, a life without choice... or the power to control you own life. What a Brave New World that will be!

New World? No sir that is the old world from which we escaped and built this nation to avoid. America's unique ideals of freedom have failed to weather the test of time.

We'll talk a good talk about the perils loss of freedom brings, but we'll never act to preserve it. Thus they are already gone, with no men left to stand for them.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
That is just the point. The revolutionary strategy being followed by Obama et al is to overload the legitimate social protection and monetary systems to the point they collapse and bring about a replacement utopia, better known as the Brave New World.

Cloward-Piven Strategy

God help us all.

Grover Norquist favors similar. aka starve the beast. We'll see how that works out for them. Who "wins" - Gov't collapse and subsequent Revolutions are very unpredictable. Could get straight up fascism or communism, unfortunately both are police states.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
is there a tl;dr version?

I got through like 3 sentences of the OP and gave up before even getting to the article.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Grover Norquist favors similar. aka starve the beast. We'll see how that works out for them. Who "wins" - Gov't collapse and subsequent Revolutions are very unpredictable. Could get straight up fascism or communism, unfortunately both are police states.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, there is no difference between totalitarian States. They all claim to benefit the populace, they all seek to enslave.

Whether they call themselves fascist (National Socialist) or communist, make claims to theocracy, atheism, ecology or proctology, they are, in the end, designed to enslave.

Revolutions occur for all kinds of stated reasons. But the impetus for revolution is both a craving for power over others and a will to make dramatic change toward that end. The result, as you say, cannot be foretold in advance. But the process will, of necessity, exacerbate or cause much misery.

Those who accept and advocate the attendant misery of revolution as necessity are the true revolutionaries, though they might couch their words and present a honeyed picture to entice more to follow their chosen path.

The American Revolution was quite exceptional as it sought to free rather than enslave. It sought to empower more generally and to reduce the effectiveness of centralized power. While the progressive revisionists claim this is not so and that many more were enslaved as a result, or that serfdom of the classes was exacerbated, the reverse is true.

The great experiment that America represents is not guaranteed to survive. History shows few civilizations, few of man's attempts of any kind last more than a few years. There are many here that wish the experiment to fail so that they can gain ascendancy. There are many more that cannot see or appreciate the value of the society they have inherited.

There is a truism that each generation must win its own right to be free. The cost may be in lives or wealth or stature, but the cost is always there. The price for this generation is yet to be paid.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
I suspect that's the only honest thing you've ever posted here (at least under this alias).

Congratulations. Unlike Diogenes, you can now say that you have met an honest man.

As any mod can attest, I yam what I yam. Why should I bother with another alias when I barely take the time to indulge in my musings as it is?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
is there a tl;dr version?

I got through like 3 sentences of the OP and gave up before even getting to the article.

Fun With Dick And Jane

Come loki8481!

Come and see!

Come, come!

Come and see!

Look, loki8481!

Oh look!

Look and see!

Oh see!

See PJABBER write!

See PJABBER!

Write, PJABBER, write!

Write, write!

Read, loki8481, read!

Read, read!

Come and read!

:awe:
 
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cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
You envious little weasel, Moonbeam. You're just jealous of his mastery of the bon ton literary style and the fact you can't keep up. You should maybe take a dose of your own ideas and try a little humility.

uh oh... responding petulantly to yourself is a new dimension, even for you...

and on the issue about the gov't making the decisions for you, when they start dropping reimbursement rates even more it will have to have an effect on service, waits, and availability...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
As I have mentioned elsewhere, there is no difference between totalitarian States. They all claim to benefit the populace, they all seek to enslave.

Whether they call themselves fascist (National Socialist) or communist, make claims to theocracy, atheism, ecology or proctology, they are, in the end, designed to enslave.

Revolutions occur for all kinds of stated reasons. But the impetus for revolution is both a craving for power over others and a will to make dramatic change toward that end. The result, as you say, cannot be foretold in advance. But the process will, of necessity, exacerbate or cause much misery.

Those who accept and advocate the attendant misery of revolution as necessity are the true revolutionaries, though they might couch their words and present a honeyed picture to entice more to follow their chosen path.

The American Revolution was quite exceptional as it sought to free rather than enslave. It sought to empower more generally and to reduce the effectiveness of centralized power. While the progressive revisionists claim this is not so and that many more were enslaved as a result, or that serfdom of the classes was exacerbated, the reverse is true.

The great experiment that America represents is not guaranteed to survive. History shows few civilizations, few of man's attempts of any kind last more than a few years. There are many here that wish the experiment to fail so that they can gain ascendancy. There are many more that cannot see or appreciate the value of the society they have inherited.

There is a truism that each generation must win its own right to be free. The cost may be in lives or wealth or stature, but the cost is always there. The price for this generation is yet to be paid.

I agree mostly with everything you said except - There is a difference between fascism and communism. See Post WWII Taiwan vs.China. The differnce is the gentry will round up, cut off, starve, kill, torture the poor vs. the poor doing the same to the gentrified. That where the unpredictable part comes in if there were to be govt collapse. Will someone move into your house or will you choose to shoot them?

PS - I was reading a post just yesterday at DU that the Constitution was an enslavement document.:rolleyes: They are idiots. Our system with rights built in for individual is/was unique in history.
 
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