Obamacare worth the price

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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
PJABBER said:
Continue your research by examining the interposition of State (mostly, at the moment) and Federal requirements, the impact of provider liabilities, the covered group record, changes in coverage choices and coinsurability.

Nothing happens in isolation or with any great degree of arbitrariness in a competitive environment.

And I bet you will also find no real change in average profitability percentages at your chosen provider. It is all a pass through and a reflection of issues beyond the power of the insurer to affect directly.
Exactly, it's the underlying HC costs that are the problem.

Edit: And for people who understand that, Obama is being a jackass lately for railing about increases in premiums and demonizing HI companies. Since the underlying HC costs drive the premium increase, what does he want the HI companies to do, deny coverage?

Fern
This is partly correct, but mostly wrong:

It's the underlying STRUCTURE of health insurance in the U.S. that is the main problem, and if you think that ANY "no mandate" structure (in which anyone who wants to can opt-out of insurance) can control costs you are sadly mistaken.

The startling increases reported this year were clearly explained: More and more of the healthy are opting out of health insurance (including group health insurance) because premiums have gotten too expensive. That leaves a higher and higher percentage of those who remain insured as higher-risk customers. That, in turn, causes the per-insured cost to increase, leading to new rounds of premium increases, and new rounds of the healthy bailing out. And so on. This process is absolutely unsustainable, and anyone who says costs can be meaningfully controlled without a mandate is a fool or a fraud.

And the necessity of a mandate is just the beginning.

As a further measure to fight the cost spiral, MEANINGFUL cost-benefit analyses must be performed, and they must be binding. Last year's fiasco where the well-researched mammogram recommendations of a health panel (appointed under Bush) were shouted down from both sides of the aisle is a clear example of how ignorance and demagoguery rule our political discourse. Costs will be controlled only when demand for health services is controlled, and for those not in special high-risk groups, health services whose marginal benefit isn't worth their marginal cost must be placed fully on the patient.

I don't want to spend hours writing about all that's wrong with our current system. But mere tweaks to the status quo - which seems to be what the right wants - are a surefire recipe for more of the disaster that our health care system has become.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
This is partly correct, but mostly wrong:

It's the underlying STRUCTURE of health insurance in the U.S. that is the main problem, and if you think that ANY "no mandate" structure (in which anyone who wants to can opt-out of insurance) can control costs you are sadly mistaken.

The startling increases reported this year were clearly explained: More and more of the healthy are opting out of health insurance (including group health insurance) because premiums have gotten too expensive. That leaves a higher and higher percentage of those who remain insured as higher-risk customers. That, in turn, causes the per-insured cost to increase, leading to new rounds of premium increases, and new rounds of the healthy bailing out. And so on. This process is absolutely unsustainable, and anyone who says costs can be meaningfully controlled without a mandate is a fool or a fraud.

And the necessity of a mandate is just the beginning.

As a further measure to fight the cost spiral, MEANINGFUL cost-benefit analyses must be performed, and they must be binding. Last year's fiasco where the well-researched mammogram recommendations of a health panel (appointed under Bush) were shouted down from both sides of the aisle is a clear example of how ignorance and demagoguery rule our political discourse. Costs will be controlled only when demand for health services is controlled, and for those not in special high-risk groups, health services whose marginal benefit isn't worth their marginal cost must be placed fully on the patient.

I don't want to spend hours writing about all that's wrong with our current system. But mere tweaks to the status quo - which seems to be what the right wants - are a surefire recipe for more of the disaster that our health care system has become.

Notwithstanding the unconstitutionality of government mandated insurance purchasing, the issue of cost benefit analyses when applied to government imposed standards is disturbing.

As I wrote originally, as a private consumer you have a right to choose to be insured or not and insurance companies have a right to choose to insure you or not.

Should you choose to have insurance to cover your costs (and MANY are opting NOT to have insurance because they can save up and pay a much lower amount by paying cash themselves for treatments!) you have a right to negotiate your plan, you have a chance to appeal decisions through insurance company appeals systems and government regulatory mechanisms, you have recourse access to arbitration, civil courts and, in extreme cases, criminal courts.

Instead of a wide variety of actuarial work and resultant options, you would like to see one arbitrary, non-market driven, protocol which will be the end all of whether you receive a government determined health outcome?

Better hope you fit the appropriate profile to get treatment!

Low survivability projection? Denied.

Limited life expectancy and no waiver for "essential personnel?" Denied.

High cost procedure? Wait your turn and hope you live to get to the top of the list.

Want to spend your own money? Don't waste our precious medical welfare resources. Buy that plane ticket to Columbia, Mexico or Brazil. (Or buy a foreign policy that covers your treatments there! Hehehe. My next investment.)

Not happy with the decision?

A government mandated system is systemically resistant to meaningful appeal. The government has to agree to being sued before it can be sued. You want a waiver with that denial? Lotsa luck, Charlie! Go see Madge in Appeals. She's off for her four week vacation and by SEIU rules no one takes her solitary place (government style cost containment measure!) while the case load builds up. You are at the bottom of her pile and she will get back to you in about six months. And her supervisor won't take your phone call. You will have to get your Congressman to take on your case advocacy (it's called a "Congressional," really!)

Oh yeah! That's the ticket!
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Notwithstanding the unconstitutionality of government mandated insurance purchasing, the issue of cost benefit analyses when applied to government imposed standards is disturbing.

As I wrote originally, as a private consumer you have a right to choose to be insured or not and insurance companies have a right to choose to insure you or not.

Should you choose to have insurance to cover your costs (and MANY are opting NOT to have insurance because they can save up and pay a much lower amount by paying cash themselves for treatments!) you have a right to negotiate your plan, you have a chance to appeal decisions through insurance company appeals systems and government regulatory mechanisms, you have recourse access to arbitration, civil courts and, in extreme cases, criminal courts.

Instead of a wide variety of actuarial work and resultant options, you would like to see one arbitrary, non-market driven, protocol which will be the end all of whether you receive a government determined health outcome?

Better hope you fit the appropriate profile to get treatment!

Low survivability projection? Denied.

Limited life expectancy and no waiver for "essential personnel?" Denied.

High cost procedure? Wait your turn and hope you live to get to the top of the list.

Want to spend your own money? Don't waste our precious medical welfare resources. Buy that plane ticket to Columbia, Mexico or Brazil. (Or buy a foreign policy that covers your treatments there! Hehehe. My next investment.)

Not happy with the decision?

A government mandated system is systemically resistant to meaningful appeal. The government has to agree to being sued before it can be sued. You want a waiver with that denial? Lotsa luck, Charlie! Go see Madge in Appeals. She's off for her four week vacation and by SEIU rules no one takes her solitary place (government style cost containment measure!) while the case load builds up. You are at the bottom of her pile and she will get back to you in about six months. And her supervisor won't take your phone call. You will have to get your Congressman to take on your case advocacy (it's called a "Congressional," really!)

Oh yeah! That's the ticket!

Given that Shira is factually correct - that healthy people are bailing out of the risk pools as premiums go up - a vicious and self-sustaining cycle, what should be done to lower healthcare costs? He has correctly diagnosed what is happening, so if you disagree with his solutions, I suggest proposing an alternative.

- wolf
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Given that Shira is factually correct - that healthy people are bailing out of the risk pools as premiums go up - a vicious and self-sustaining cycle, what should be done to lower healthcare costs? He has correctly diagnosed what is happening, so if you disagree with his solutions, I suggest proposing an alternative.

- wolf

I don't want to speak specifically as to Shira's "solutions" as I don't know them well enough to comment.

In general, don't Shira's ideas have something to do with forcing everyone into the risk pool, charging only the top 50% of wage earners to pay for the mandated "insurance," and then using government imposed treatment protocols to determine who gets what treatments (without chance for appeal or bypass?)

Gee, I thought I did respond before, in both a direct and a more humorous roundabout way did proclaim an alternative or two -

1. Do not force anyone by government edict to buy or not buy any "insurance."

2. Remove/restrict all government mandates for treatments other than required childhood and population threatening disease immunizations. To the greatest extent possible get government completely out of the mandate business for the employed, self-sustaining population.

3. Open up the provision of healthcare and payment/insurance means to full competition. Want to have no existing condition rejections? No problem, the rate you pay will reflect the actual cost of treatments. Require open and full disclosure of all rates and prices to allow the consumer to price shop (now THAT'S revolutionary!)

4. Privatize through SROs the regulatory and oversight business the government now does (poorly.)

5. For work capable but dependent adult populations, require participation in work for pay programs and limit benefits to the greatest extent possible with absolutely minimal freebies (ie immunizations). For example, if you are unemployed and need an appendectomy, the government can pay for your treatment should you (or your sponsor, ie parents) ask for that help. In turn, you are OBLIGATED to work off the debt at either a government sponsored job or private employment. Make it a mandatory 10% payment of income earned, have an agency like the State Child Support Unit or the IRS do the enforcement.

Too old or infirm to work? We already have (inefficient) programs in place that take care of that.
 
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