Obamacare - RIP

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mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
2,144
2
81
Bitek said:
That's what its all about tho right? Its not an immediate need, so some people blow it off knowing someone will save their ass if some accident happens, and they don't really believe it will happen anyway.

Then comes some freak accident, they slip and break their leg, and $50K later they are in a cast and claim they can't pay.

What will she do? File for Bankruptcy and stiff everyone else with the bill.

Hospitals are not allowed to let people just die out on the sidewalk, so the only other choice is to make sure everyone tosses in their fair share.
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Which is why they should have framed this crap as a tax. Call it the "Free Rider" Tax. If you have health insurance, you don't pay it. You're taxing people who want a free ride by showing up to the ER with no insurance, which would be paid for by the "Free Rider" tax. However no one wanted to legislate or argue that. They went the commerce clause route, and that's just not enough to justify this poor legislation.

Also for the people saying poor people will get subsidies. What kind of insurance do you think these people are going to get? I don't think these insurance companies are dying to offer a good value at a low price. Plus if the poor can't afford premiums, they probably won't be able to afford copays, coinsurance, deductibles, etc. If you take those out, the price up and up. Definitely not what I call "affordable care."

The best solution is a single payer system where everyone shares the risk together.
 
O

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
mcmilljb said:
Which is why they should have framed this crap as a tax. Call it the "Free Rider" Tax. If you have health insurance, you don't pay it. You're taxing people who want a free ride by showing up to the ER with no insurance, which would be paid for by the "Free Rider" tax. However no one wanted to legislate or argue that. They went the commerce clause route, and that's just not enough to justify this poor legislation.

Also for the people saying poor people will get subsidies. What kind of insurance do you think these people are going to get? I don't think these insurance companies are dying to offer a good value at a low price. Plus if the poor can't afford premiums, they probably won't be able to afford copays, coinsurance, deductibles, etc. If you take those out, the price up and up. Definitely not what I call "affordable care."

The best solution is a single payer system where everyone shares the risk together.
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Obamacare is NOT the end game my friend. It's a stepping stone. A stepping stone to what? Single payer.

Single payer is the logical conclusion to this mess that rights all of the constitutional foibles ACA is experiencing right now.
 
Michael

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
When Obama was elected, I was hopeful that maybe something would change. I am for a single payer system because I believe that it would provide care at the lowest cost to everyone. The Democrats controlled both houses and the Presidency. Instead of the logical, cost efficient and universal single payer option, they instead delivered a foolish bill that takes the current system and makes it worse.

That result completely changed my opinion of Obama and made me want him to be beaten in the next election. I think the one thing he did do - pass a sweeping healthcare law will be defeated in court and he essentially will have nothing to show for his first (and only, I hope) 4 years in office.

Michael
 
sportage

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
senseamp said:
Everyone is billed for the ER. Many just can't pay the bills. Are you expecting people to carry suitcases of cash with them in case they get into a crash?
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I know of people that after multiple ER visits for needed iv medications, the ER refused to treat the patient. Severe Rheumatoid Arthritis.
The patient was turned away and referred to a "private doctor" of their choice.
And you know where they ended up after that?
No insurance. No income. No ability to pay. No treatment. PERIOD.

This may be America, but this does still happen. Believe to or not.
Rolling into the ER "IS NOT" 100% guarantee one will be treated.
Other than by very temporally and ineffective measures.

This poor lady I know personally has so much pain, and no longer can get iv treatments anywhere, she looks like an AIDS patient from weight loss due to the pain suffered.

This is the reality of American healthcare that President Obama is simply trying to help correct.
Naturally, A-holes will continue to vote against their own best interest. Continue to listen to sound bites from anti Obama politicians. And wonder WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED the day they too need healthcare and can not afford to get it in America,
Go figure.......

Never underestimate the stupidity of the those in need.
 
Hayabusa Rider

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
sportage said:
I know of people that after multiple ER visits for needed iv medications, the ER refused to treat the patient. Severe Rheumatoid Arthritis.
The patient was turned away and referred to a "private doctor" of their choice.
And you know where they ended up after that?
No insurance. No income. No ability to pay. No treatment. PERIOD.

This may be America, but this does still happen. Believe to or not.
Rolling into the ER "IS NOT" 100% guarantee one will be treated.
Other than by very temporally and ineffective measures.

This poor lady I know personally has so much pain, and no longer can get iv treatments anywhere, she looks like an AIDS patient from weight loss due to the pain suffered.

This is the reality of American healthcare that President Obama is simply trying to help correct.
Naturally, A-holes will continue to vote against their own best interest. Continue to listen to sound bites from anti Obama politicians. And wonder WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED the day they too need healthcare and can not afford to get it in America,
Go figure.......

Never underestimate the stupidity of the those in need.
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In countries which have UHC do patients have a right to unlimited treatments at the time they wish?
 
N

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
1. He is not talking about unlimited and immediate.

Most do have continual care for people who need it. So something like this that could be scheduled regularly would probably be a given in UHC.

The downside I have heard from Canada is availability for something that just happened. Waits can be several months for not essential treatments UNLESS you have supplemental PRIVATE insurance.

I think that is where we should start.


1. Get everyone to pay that can pay. Period.
2. Get a basic free preventative care program established.
3. Get a scheduled maintenance program for cases like arthritis or diabetes or other easily monitored and "regular" needs
4. Allow private insurance to handle cases where people would like to get "to the front of the line" in a private practice by paying a little extra (so the doctors themselves are paid extra as well).

What we have now is partisan BS. We could not call this a "Tax", although it should be, because of the stupid oversimplified "no new taxes" oath that is filtering around. So they can take OLD statutes and let them expire, or renew them (like the Bush tax cut....during a recession), but god forbid we instill a new tax that may, ironically, save 90% of the people out there some money.......

My hopes are squat on this, either way. It is like driving a car to get to Mardi Gras and the only options you are getting from your G(o)PS/D is Scranton PA or South Central LA. Neither is what you put in the damn thing, but they seem to have forgotten that. (Which leg would you want us to chop off before your appendectomy?)
 
cybrsage

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
werepossum said:
We have things similar to that now when Congress passes a law (or the agencies invent one) requiring compliance in something with a time-limited grandfather clause, e.g. by such and such date you must replace your scrubbers or install a catalytic converter meeting the new standards or replace your existing site lighting with turtle-safe site lighting. Personally I find being disallowed from growing your own grain to feed your own livestock a much more egregious misuse of the Commerce Clause. Same with rules limiting you to two weeks of stored food.

Also, unless SCOTUS specifically tosses the whole law over the lack of a separability clause, kicking out the mandate won't kill Obamacare. It will just drastically increase the national debt and/or result in even more cuts to Medicare/Medicaid to fund the spending.

One more point - there are some good things about Obamacare, things on which both parties can agree. (Well, at least outside of an election cycle.) Things like abolishing the right to discriminate against pre-existing conditions (which raises everyone's premiums but is the only way someone with a pre-existing condition can get health insurance.) I'm no fan of Obamacare, but it would be cruel to repeal the law without another way to address these needs, as our pre-ACA free market system (hard to call it that without laughing) just doesn't work for these people. A civilized nation needs more than "sucks to be you" if someone is diabetic.
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Was this a yes or a no?
 
cybrsage

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
senseamp said:
And the argument that if the government requires you to buy health insurance they can require you to eat broccoli is intellectually weak.
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They cannot make you eat it, but they can make you buy it. They can make you buy a car, too. That is what he was getting at.
 
Hayabusa Rider

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
jackstar7 said:
And it might happen.

Or at least it would if this were a functional political civilization.
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Meaning if everyone thought as you. If this were a functional intelligent civilization we'd stop trying to find a political solution to a problem which requires wit and wisdom. The latter qualities seem to be in increasingly short supply.
 
N

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
Make you buy a car?

Weak.

Careful or we will start "debating" on why the government has to subsidize mass transit.
 
jackstar7

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Hayabusa Rider said:
Meaning if everyone thought as you. If this were a functional intelligent civilization we'd stop trying to find a political solution to a problem which requires wit and wisdom. The latter qualities seem to be in increasingly short supply.
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Why are you jumping on me?

I just look at the state of political discourse and proceedings and see a shambles of a system. What gets done? How is the people's business conducted?

People don't need to all think as me. I like disagreement. I like conflict. We get better results when ideas are tested.

But where is the testing? Instead everything is shouted down or disinformed or caught in the soundbite game.

And we all lose.


I'm not persecuting you.
 
Hayabusa Rider

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
jackstar7 said:
Why are you jumping on me?

I just look at the state of political discourse and proceedings and see a shambles of a system. What gets done? How is the people's business conducted?

People don't need to all think as me. I like disagreement. I like conflict. We get better results when ideas are tested.

But where is the testing? Instead everything is shouted down or disinformed or caught in the soundbite game.

And we all lose.


I'm not persecuting you.
Click to expand...

I suppose that I'm frustrated because people have The Answer to a problem that they don't understand and have no real interest to learn about. Disagreement is one thing. Making serious issues into sport at the sacrifice of results? I haven't much patience with that.
 
jackstar7

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Hayabusa Rider said:
I suppose that I'm frustrated because people have The Answer to a problem that they don't understand and have no real interest to learn about. Disagreement is one thing. Making serious issues into sport at the sacrifice of results? I haven't much patience with that.
Click to expand...

I think we're on the same page then.

Results would be a marked change from what we get these days.
 
blankslate

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,774
556
126
The thing is if the ACA or "Obamacare" is struck down then

People who are just starting to get the benefits from it. yes there are some.

They'll be wondering now what to I do? then they'll be wondering who do I blame?

Then it becomes who can spin it better.
 
Atreus21

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Based on the logic of some here, I'm beginning to think I could make a fortune as a political consultant. All I have to do is get blatantly-unconstitutional legislation through that makes everyone a millionaire, and then get the SCOTUS to overturn it. The opposition party will get totally shellacked for taking everyone's money away.
 
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